lanchester

One might level that particular argument against the Deltic's, especially after the national traction plan took effect! Okay, they were not exclusively used on "summer peak trains" but they were well within the "small class of loco" bracket!

I've certainly never heard anyone question the wisdom of keeping them however!

Cheers,

John E.

Fair enough on a dedicated basis. But when I briefly served with BREL, 1974-5, we were told, by a BR Board member for engineering no less, that the Deltics' annual maintenance costs were approximately double those of the next expensive class (which were the 'Western' hydraulics) and around four times the costs for the like of Brush 47's. Part of that no doubt is due to lack of economies of scale - 22 locomotives (nearly said 22 engines but of course in the Delts that would be 44) of unique design, as opposed to spares provision for around 500 locomotives (and those with some commonalities with other classes).

So as long as the Delts ruled on the ECML this was, presumably, factored into the ticket price -  but never any economic case for cascading onto less profitable secondary services, except, as in fact happened, just to use up the mileage before the next general overhaul.

I imagine the equation was somewhat similar for Princess/Coronations, Kings (with the other problem of limited route availability) etc. Curiously, some of the LNER pacifics do seem to have been slightly (but only slightly) more versatile in achieving a 'second career'.

This is a contrast (and possibly to the railway accountants a shock) if we compare it with the previous generations of 'express passenger' engines - NER Atlantics, GWR Stars, MR Compound or CR Pickersgill 4-4-0s, and doubtless many others, which did have a properly economic utility on secondary services after their glory days were over. I don't think this is just because of diseaselisation - the big 1930s-1950s express engines, or the Deltics, were simply never going to be viable if downgraded to, say, Hull-Leeds semi-fasts, or stoppers on the ECML.

Which makes me think of Thompson. How far, in the depths of WW11, could he even dream of restoring or improving the elite services of pre-war (which as a previous poster has noted, may have been as much about PR as real revenue)? It seems to me that a lot of what he was trying to do was around reliability and standardisation - OK some 30 years after Churchward. Cylinders, boilers (also of course incorporating the potential for newer manufacturing methods: you can now roll a barrel in two rings rather than three, so why wouldn't you.?) Arguably he went too far, too soon, at a time when innovation, even if it might ultimately prove to be the right path, was in the short term more costly/disruptive than 'business as usual', there being a war on and all that.

He had a strong North Eastern legacy, and that railway arguably had, even more than the GWR, a long tradition of standardisation - the Worsdell brothers and then Raven really tried not to introduce a new boiler diagram or a new wheel diameter or a new cylinder block design if they didn't have to, and also were famous for 'rebuilding' (one uses the term loosely and sometimes in accountancy terms) earlier locomotives to be for practical purposes identical to their new build successors. On the other hand, the NER tradition may have blinded him sometimes: Raven was keen on monobloc three-cylinder castings, which doesn't seem to have mattered. On Gresley designs, especially the V2, the monobloc was a weakness - one cylinder gone, you have to replace all three. (Off topic but you can argue the same with articulated train sets from the Silver Jubilee to the APT - an elegant solution, until something goes wrong).

Plus side, the monobloc cylinder casting is, as far as I know, the 'scientific' justification for the preservation of Green Arrow as part of the national collection - and also, consequentially, why she may never be returned to steam.

I trust readers will forgive these musings: like many other posters, if I assert something, it's really a request for more knowledgeable folks to show me I'm wrong!

It isn't pouring with rain, nor is it blowing a gale. What's gone wrong?  I might even get a dry game of golf. Pictures first though. We don't often see BR Standards, apart from 9Fs, so today features Leicester Midland shedded 75060 arriving with the 0935 for Peterborough East, one of only two Up Midland line trains allowed to stop at PN.

5060 1.JPG

This corner of the layout really needs some more detailing before it is suitable for this treatment.

5060 2.jpg

District Engineer's buildings now make a very nice backdrop.

5060 3.JPG

And another experiment with very heavy cropping. Better in black and white?

5060 bw.jpg

No photoshopping at all in any of these, just cropping.

I'm no photographer, but perhaps the B&W version is more authentic, simply because I'd be surprised if you could get that much colour shooting from outside to a heavily shadowed space with the film and kit available then? But I was only 3 at the time, so what would I know? Still a great pic, whichever format.

I like the phrase imagaineering, I am somebody who was born too young to remember steam on the main line so imagineering and an awful lot of research is all i've got. My first memory of getting up close to a real steam engine was been taken to see Blue Peter in Wellington street goodsyard in Leeds when I was a little lad. I was enthralled by my fathers memories of seeing LMS garrats at York in the 1930s and of raceing an A4 on the Harrogate Leeds line during the war. He said that the "acselerator was flat to the floor and we could see the road whizzing by through holes in our little Austin van", the needle on the spead dial had run out of numbers but the A4 was still pulling away from them. one of his favourite tales, was when on the climb to Witby west cliff, just after the War, the fire man of the train engine, a B1, lost his shovel in the fire, the train got slower and slower and the noise from the pilot engine, a G5, got louder and louder as the exhaust rocketed into the sky. Eventualy they reached Witby west cliff, were the fireman of the B1 tock the shovel from the G5, and the fireman of the G5 commandeered the shovel from the little coal scutel in stations waiting room. Eventualy after much rebuilding of the fires of the two engines they proceded on their way.

 

In1953, he traveled on the Plant centenarian, with the two veteran Atlantcs. Driver Hailstone was on 990 and driver Hoole was on 251, the train was a heavy one with no less then two Thompson kichen cars, my Father was ensconced in the Restaurant Buffer car from the pre war Fying Scotsman. The decent of stoke bank was made at 96 miles per hour, with 990 doing all the work. At king cross, driver Hoole was apparently, "spitting blood", that is engine couldn't steam propley.  On the return journey Hailstone had his usual engine, Silver Link and a fast climb to stoke summit was made, as they entered stoke tunnel they met an A1 coming the other way and there was a noise like a sonic boom as the two train passed, It tickled him pink, that the coffe he was atempting to drink, was doing a wall of death around the mug. I was never a witness to any of this but I can certainly imagine the excitment of it all.  I recal onTebay, when the twins failed on the Royal Scot and we had to call on a humble WD (resplendent with headboard) from the shed to take the train forward, an event that actualy happend in reality. There was much joviality from the crowd on the barriers as you would imagine.

 

F Teale at the contols of the Hush Hush, with his solution to the problems of failing eyesight and compression.

I think Hoole's problem with 251 would be that when it was restored, it was taken back as far as possible to original condition, which unfortunately was non-superheated. I wonder if anyone had told him?

The bright red 08 was operated by A V Dawson ( http://www.av-dawson.com/)who have a large freight terminal on the river side of Middlesborough Goods.

Indeed, earlier this year Dawsons took over management of Middlesbrough Goods. There are a number of other users but Dawson's current major interest is receiving coil steel from Tata in South Wales to store in a £6 million environmentally controlled warehouse for onward supply by road, principally, to Nissan at Washington (also some flow to Nissan suppliers in the locality, and some steel products to Caterpillar). Taking over the yard management will, I am told, enable Dawsons to reconfigure to improve the handling of inbound trains - shunting will still be required as the site constrictions mean even the new warehouse can only take around 18 of a 24 wagon train at a time (figures from memory but they are about right).

I visited earlier this year - they had the carcases of a couple of 08s, being stripped for spares - especially wheelsets, I believe. They also have a plinthed RSH diesel shunter from, I think, the early 50s, which is a heritage item in its own right.

Dawsons are an interesting multimodal operation - they have their own, rail accessible, wharfage on the Tees, and are being quite creative in finding additional traffics to make the most of the freight train paths available (eg coke oven byproducts from Tata in Wales, in demountable tanks, to be used in the Teesside chemical industry). They also have some involvement, depending on market conditions, with the North Yorkshire potash mining industry. Their estate supports a number of North Sea offshore providers, and some of that traffic does, or at least could, come by rail.

Usual disclaimer - no link with the company, except I visited them in my role as jounalist to do a write-up.

Their site is more or less the original Stockton & Darlington wharfage (which was, confusingly, called Port Darlington, to the indignation of the Stockton contingent, and of course before Middlesbrough itself really existed).

Please forgive me for going back to post 338 and the diagram of Springbank West Jn. I was hoping someone else would display their ignorance first, but no, so please can someone tell me what is/was an 'Economical Facing Point Lock' as shown on the diagram?

Just reverting to beer, especially if you have tourists in the area, you might have a demand for bottled Bass, which was sold all over the country. I believe this would come from Burton in the barrel, and be bottled fairly locally (so there could also be an occassional traffic in bottles?)

Minor detail for when you come to the finishing touches. When I used to ski out of Aviemore circa 1965-7, there was a very decrepid 7-plank exPO mineral wagon permanently parked in the Northbound bay (not enough paint left for identification) which I think was used as a coal bunker for the fires in the station buildings. No pic I'm afraid, but a nice excuse for a totally out of period wagon, if you happen to have one about your person with sentimental attachments!

Only just found this topic. I am able to say that I, just, remember Major Tommy Lawson, who was Works Manager at the Lambton Engine Works post-war, and I am sure would have understood and appreciated some of the ideas in the 'Lambton Tank' concept above. See the Mountford/IRS publications, including Lawson's 'pannier tank': bits from two 0-6-0 tender engines and and 0-6-0ST, numbered 6; and no 44 on the Hetton system, a rebuild of a Manning Wardle with side tanks, with 'fake' taper boiler and fake Belpaire firtebox et al - really a prototype for all!. The incredibly ancient 0-6-0 tender engine, with welded tank tenders, tender cabs and double window glazed engine cab, (No 9) also worth a look - or a hack?. Incidentally, Lawson also built live steam 'models' - not sure of the gauges as I was very young, but I think 5 inch, 7 and a half inch, that sort of thing.Some of them were exhibited in the Durham Light Infantry Museum in, I think, the early Seventies, although I don't think they were acquired for the collection. My father told me they once set a track out at Philadelphia and found Lawson's locomotives remarkably capable at pulling full size wagons ( once details like the angle of pull on the drawbar was solved - I think, but I was only a kid at the time, some sort of barrier wagon was improvised).

We knew him because my great grandfather, Sam Tulip, was Chief Engineer of the Lambton Hetton and Joicey from 1897-1935, and his son Winston Leonard Tulip from then until 1960 (NOT Walter, as Colin Mountford has it - my grandfather typically initialled WLT and I can see how people taking notes might re-read that as Walter - Colin knows this but the IRS books were already in print when I spotted the error).

Back to your tank - Tommy clearly enjoyed putting 'modern'. even 'fashionable' features on engines he rebuilt out of available bits - just like you, sir. Please, carry on the tradition!

Sam Tulip

Actually Tony, between the wars horse racing was not so much the sport of kings as the sport of the populace. 

Most people would have heard of, if not actually witnessed many of these horses.  It is estimated that in 1938 £500,000,000 (probably £500+ billion in today's money) was placed in bets on race horses, and in the absence of betting shops, which were legalised in the 60s, this would all have been placed at the track.

It was of course the railway that allowed people to travel to the track - and there were more race tracks then than now.

 

Using the names of successful thoroughbreds would I think have sent a very strong and well understood message to their travelling public.

 

Edited for clarity

The LNER racehorse names were, with just a few exceptions, winners of the Flat race Classics, of which of course the Doncaster St Leger is one. Isn't it a pity that the LMS didn't come back with the names of Grand National and other jump race winners? (Would have been appropriate - ECML is mostly on the flat, WCML goes over the big obstacles).