Wenrash

This is an eye opening series of posts!

Is there anything wrong in using the Lima I/F Siphon to form a base for the above vehicle in this train?

Just decided to post the end elevation, if that helps?

Having now re read the article, Mr Binney says the the drawings he was looking at does not make it clear that the side dimension is to the cornice or the underside of the eve. Checking the running numbers given with Harris show that this coach is a D29.

J. E. D. Binney wrote  a comprehensive series of articles for "The Model Railway News" on the GWR clerestory coaches. September 1952 article gives all the paneling dimension and the floor to eve heights end panels dimensions. The drawing for this article is for a LH 56ft Van third.

He gives the body dimension as 6ft-51/4in from bottom floor to eve.

That's what I am looking for. Thank you Guy.

Hello All,

Re the tapered wagon buffer stock fitted to the Iron Minks, O9, V12 and many others, Has anybody measured the full size and has the dimensions?

I have MJT and ABS equivalent, but they are different. Measuring the large drawings in the Russell Plan book, comes up with another answer. So has anybody got the actual dimensions?

Regards,

Richard A

There has been a publication produced. "Train Formations & Carriage Workings of the Great Western Railway" by W.S.Becket. This is based on the 1931/32 winter time table. Its shows that the first six trains out from Paddington  were parcel or newspaper trains. But they all had some passenger accommodation.

The book contains Bradshaw extracts, Train formations and Daily carriage diagrams. To show the content I have copied the 00:10 information for all to see.

Richard A

PS I wonder if you have the full instructions. Here is the diagram part of the instructions.

Richard A

I actually have a complete, not made up, kit of this product.

Firstly you DO have the complete etches as supplied in the kit. Miss P is quite correct in saying that your ringed part is an etch of the projections (Duckets) fitted to the E78's. The casting kit also contain whitemetal versions of these items.

This kit is an early etched kit. No interior is provided. The three partitions are only spacers to hold the sides apart. You have photographed the back side of the coach side etch. The left hand two partitions, in your photo, are the ends with paneling etched on the other side.

You really have to make up a complete interior to get anything like the full size.

You have the underframe as provided. It is not a channel but an etched vertical with taps that fit to slots in the floor. Also foot boards are provided which slot into the vertical. You have the four flatbar truss items but not the two lost wax castings  which make up the four trusses.

I believe that these 70ft coaches had 10in channel solebars. Can somebody confirm that they were not bulb angle?

The instruction are simple compared to modern kits.

Richard A

Buy a copy of "Great Western Star Class Locomotives" by Laurance Watters. There are some photographs that fit your prescription, though not 4021 when it has a 4000 gal tender. I notice Mr Watters quotes the tender numbers in some of the photographs. I guess he is reading the late Bill Peto's work which I think is in the Great Western Society Archives.  How keen are you? The "Engine History Sheet's" are in TNA Kew. This will tell what tender was on which locomotive by date. This is where Mr Peto got his information from.

Sorry posting error.

Tender No 2586

5001              10/31              14/08/36

5032          27/07/35             06/05/40

5071          07/06/40            09/05/42

5049          21/04/42            23/06/44

5017          23/06/44            17/12/45

6951

5068          16/04/48             03/11/49

4043

4093          not listed on  the engine history sheet

4918           12/08/50             13/08/51

5957

6912

6905

5904

Sorry I can not fill in the rest as I do only have book 1 of the "Halls". Somebody else may be able to help.

Richard A

By using the Ian Sixsmith books you should be able to create a time line for this tender.  These books give the allocated tender for each individual locomotive. As you are basically looking  at Castles and Halls, these have been covered by the publications. Unfortunately I only have the Castle and book 1, ie 4900 to 4999 of the Hall Class.

The first date is the date that tender No 2586 was attached. The second date is the date the next tender is assigned.

5919

5001

I should clarify that the Y10, lot 1363, has an end similar to the Type 2. That being converted from cattle vans diagram dated June 1939, but labeled as a "Fruit Van" whereas the Y7 is a "Insulated Van for Banana Traffic".

Richard A

All the Y diagrams are in the book "Great Western Wagons Plan Book" J Russell (1976). The diagrams appear to be reductions of genuine GWR general arrangement drawings.

Diagram Y7 lot 1054 dated 1929 has ends as identified as Type 1 by Will. None of the diagrams have a Type 2 end.

So draw your own conclusions.

Richard A

I think they are only stops for the filler flap to rest on when it is open.

Richard

I do hope everyone has in mind that the double fillers looked like this.

Not how the Hornby Dublo model was done.

Hornby appeared to have followed the Sir Layland-Barratt or the Roche drawing. Neither are correct to the A113 GA drawing.

Richard A 

I have a problem with what "Castle" has written with regard to the round plates bolted the the top deck of the 4000 gal Collett tenders. For this to be correct, that is there would be just 20 of these A113 tenders rebuilds.

This just does not concur with the published GA drawings.

In Russell Vol 2 there are two G/A drawings of the 4000 gal tenders.

The first Drawing 76936 is labeled A113 and is for the twenty tenders with double fillers.

There is also a photograph of the top of one of these tender sans the front sand boxes.

The second drawing 89790 is labeled Lots A113, A116, A117, A120, A121 and has the single central filler.

This implies indeed that A113 tenders were to be amended to conform with this drawing.

Martin Finney says Lot A113 - 20 tenders

                               Lot A117 - 47 tenders

                               Lot A120 - 10 tenders

                               Lot A121 - 20 tenders

                              Total           97

This drawing shows the round plates each side of the central filler at least on 77 tenders.

If you have a copy of R Guy Williams "The 4mm Engine A Scratchbuilder's Guide" you will have a copy of  G/A drawing 92460. This is for Lot A123.

This has the "broad framing around the axleboxes".

It also shows the round plates bolted each side of the central filler on the tender deck.

None of these tenders had double fillers.

Now JimC in post # 137, of this thread, says that the drawing register show that there are no more G/A drawings until Hawksworth tenders were built.

This would surly mean that all subsequent tenders also had the round plates bolted to the back deck.

Also in Russell there is a drawing of the A118 3500 gal tenders. Miss Prisim has posted a copy in post #60

The Russell does not scan well, but you can see the round plates bolted to the back deck.

Again none of these tenders had double fillers.

So to say that the round plates were covers from the removal of the double fillers is not possible.

It is just not tenable.

All the best,

Richard A

The point of the photo of the double filler tender is that it was taken in 1934. Approx 7 years after construction. Still not modified. The "Sixsmith" engine record say that the tender no is 2399.

This has survived at Didicot. Anybody got a photograph as to how it ended up?

Richard A

Castle Hi,

Have you seen this photograph?

Take note of the Hall Tender!

Comes from Great Western Journal No 48 Autumn 2003.

I wondered why go to the expense of removing them. The original fillers were in a ledge that goes all the way across the tender.

See Russell Vol 2 for a drawing of the original design.

I bought a Hornby King and was surprised that they had modeled the A113 design correctly. Pity they had the wrong underframe!

Richard A

It is surprising that there being Two drawings published, Three if you include the A113 Drawing, and still there are errors!

I am not sure what Castle's post is saying. Attached is a copy from the Finney instructions which show the access/ inspection plates each side of the central filler. These are not usually modeled by the commercial suppliers.  

Is this what Castle means?

Richard A

Just realised I put a line through 4086 in the caption as the record say the 4086 never had an "A112" attached.

Richard A

Hello All,

I also noted the weight diagrams do not match with the photographic record, as JimC has said. 

As to 2818's tender 2376. Is there any stamped numbers on the tender frame? As GWR did on loco parts.

The irony of this tender is that it is exactly to drwg 7232, bar spring changes and buffer changes. I suppose the Drawing register does not say "All built with high sides".

Maybe this is far fetched.

2376 was attached to  4092     5/1/26 to ?

                                     100A1 ?/1926 to 12/26

                                      4037    12/26 to 6/28

                                      4995   2/3/31 to 25/4/32

according to Sixsmith. Dates a little vague in places.

This drwg 72342 from NRM sample section.

Also this is the photograph that Mr H Le Fleming used in Part 8 RCTS to illustrate what is an "Intermediate" tender.

It comes from Sixsmith Castle book. I think the caption writer went to quite a bit of trouble to try to nail down what is an "A112 Intermediate Tender"

I am grateful to JimC in providing the Drawing changes list.

Now it the tender number is known I can find the lot number and now know what components should be on the tender,

I think that is about as close as one can get in year 2018.

From Jim's list only 12 of the drawings are listed on the NRM "Swindon Drawing List"

No Axleboxes. Sorry Jim. But I don't think that enough drawings have survived to get any closer.

I have purchased Laurence Waters "Hall" book. This is the first book, i have seen, where the author/caption writer has quoted tender numbers where at all possible. May it continue!!!!

I purchased this in the hope of finding more Dean 4000 tenders.

There is a photograph of 4903 "Astley Hall" taken at Reading 12 March 1948. The Author ascribes the tender as "Dean tender 1459" ie another 4000 gal tender.

It has the original frame, no mods and long fender as per a standard 3500 tender.

But more of this another time.

Richard Ashenden

Laying aside the changes for the spring attachments, is this tender turning into another story like 3206, earlier on in this thread?

ie a 1950's cobble together.

I do not understand why the tender number, stated by JimC, is an A112 tender, when the tank is clearly not!

I would assume the number went with the tank, not with the frame.

Richard A

Hi All,

I would speculate that the A112 Frame plate fell out of favour only because the internal radii are more expensive to make with available tools in the 1920's. Straight lines of the Collet type are simpler to cut and machine up.

The shape harks back the the curves of the Dean era.

The A113 4000 gal tender seems to be the first radical change in design since the start of the 3000 gal tenders in 1890's. The 3500 gal tenders have the same length and height of the 3000 gal type. Only the tank width was changed from 6ft-6ins to 8ft-0ins.

Around 1904 there must have been an edict that all future passenger(?) tenders were to be vacuum braked. Possibly prompted by the Southall accident.

Have been watching, on Youtube, 6023 doing "Load Tests" on the Seven Valley Line a few days ago.

Gents wind up the volume.

It awesome!!!!!!!!!

Richard A.

Hello Mike,

Drwg 72342 is available on the NRM web site in the Free Samples.

Drwg 41429 which is "Tank for Tender Capacity 3500 GALS" is also freely available in the same section.

I agree with what JimC is saying, and look forward to results of his investigation.

Does anybody have Sixsmith "Manor" book and can therefore put an number to the intermediate tender in Miss P's post?

Richard Ashenden