Wenrash

Not necessarily so Jim. If the loco was set up with the combined steam brake valve and vacuum ejector, then the tender could be steam braked. Conversely if the engine was vacuum only, then the tender had to be vacuum. If all the early Saints were vacuum engines then the tenders had to be vacuum. ie the Dean 4000 gal had to be converted to vacuum. Which they were or some were. An 2251 engine, which were steam braked engines, could have a vacuum tender as they were fitted with the combined steam/vacuum brake system. see the link to 2251 photos earlier. You will see the steam part of the brake above the vacuum. There is a drawing of all this in GWRJ. Now a little puzzle. There is three photos of 38xx loco in RC Riley's first book, taken by WL Good. I think two of the are Dean 4000 gal tenders. Only judged by the height of the hand rail in relation to the cab cut out. The third photo is of a 3500 gal tender which is much lower. The puzzle is that the 4000 gal tenders are attached to loco's of the first batch. These were fitted with steam brakes. The brake hangers are in front of the driving wheels, and they had outside pull rods, probably double which pulled to the back, with steam cylinders, as did the Dean era 4-4-0's. The later batches were like normal Churchward Saint's and Star's with a vacuum cylinder up front. Now were those tenders steam braked, as were the loco, or were the loco's fitted for both systems. Has anybody seen a photograph, or point me to a photograph, of the inside of the cab of one of the first batch of the 38xx? M Early has a photo of a later batch, which has vacuum brake only. This then meant generally 3500 gal tenders or a convert. Incidentally the GA on HRM web site says that the first two batches were the same. Photographic evidence does not bare this out! I am away from home so can not give references. Richard Ashenden

In the light of what has been said over copyright, Herewith find the photographs These are the three tenders in question. Richard Ashenden

A premature reply concerning Dean 4000 gal Tenders. 1. In the Ian Sixsmith "Castle" book there is a photograph of 4088 with a Dean 4000 gal tender attached. Also in Part 1 of the Hall book in the tenders section, there is photograph of 4985 with a Dean 4000 gal tender. Both Engine Record Sheets say that it is 1513. This is the only Dean 4000 tender that either had attached. It show that spring brackets have been added and the fender goes around the back Collet style. 2.GWRJ No 93 page 243, shows a Brian Penney photograph of 2938 Corsham Court with a Dean 4000 gal tender. It is labeled as such. It has a modern frame. Only two foot brackets on the back wall and not a snap head rivet to be seem anywhere. Even on the fender. Oh fender is the Collet style right round the back. 3. GWRJ No 35 page 152. Now this interesting photograph has been labeled as a 3500 gal tender attached to 4958 Priory Hall. It has a new modern frame, which has raised the tender a bit. The fender is a long 3500 gal style. The front hand rail is higher than the cab cutout indicating a tall tender. The construction is flush riveted. The photograph was taken in early April 1947. The Engine Record sheet says that Dean 4000 gal tender No 1509 was attached 6/2/46 and the next tender, 2412 was attached 10/10/47. The photograph was taken within that period. I worry about posting copyright photos to a forum, so please forgive me. Richard Ashenden

I have seen another photo of a Collet 4000 with framing just like that. If only I had noted where!!!!! Will have to look again. Richard A

Note to Miss Prism and JimC. Thank you very much. Very enlightening. Explains how you can get a 3000 gal tender behind a Saint. Also 8 or the early Saints appear to have 4000 gal tenders attached. See Waters book. This is all before any 3500 gal tenders were made in mid 1905. After that date future Saints received 3500 gal tenders. Now Dean/Churchward 4000 gal tender statistics. 9 early Castles had 8 D/C 4000 gal tenders in their lifetime. All gone by mid 1943. 21 Halls, of the first 100, had D/C 4000 gal tenders attached in their lifetime. 12 different tenders were used. Last one Feb 1953. All the same group of tenders, usually for 2-3 years. There must be photographs of these. So far I have found one 1947 dated photograph in GWRJ, of which the engine record sheet lists a D/C 4000 gal at that period The quest for the elusive Dean/Churchward 4000 gal tenders continues. Richard Ashenden

I have just re-read Jim C post regarding the Dean/Churchward 4000 gal drawing list. If Jim is still following all this, is there anything drawing numbers relating to the brake fitted? If the numbers are the same as the 3000 gal tenders, then they were steam braked. If the brake drawing numbers are the same as the 3500 gal tenders, then they were vacuum braked. Their Lot No's are in between the 3000 gal Lots. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that all the pre 1905 3000 gal tenders were all steam braked. Comments anyone? Richard A

I Hope Miss Prism has found some more A112 Intermediate tender photographs. There are 3 in Maurice Earley book "Truly the Great Western", taken in 1926,1927 and 1933. Could be the wrong period. Also the photo Mr Le Fleming used to illustrate what is and A122 in 1953,has been republished in the Ian Sixsmith "Book of the Castles". These books are really a publication of the "Engine Record Sheets". 8 early Castles were paired with 7 A112 tenders, all going by 1930. 18 Halls, of the first 100, were paired with 8 A112 tenders, the last going by late 1939. Incidentally the record does not agree with the assertion that the A112's were built for Castles 4083-4092. Only 4088 started with an A112 tender No 2374. 4091 actual first tender was No 1539, which was a Dean 4000 gal one. All the rest started with 3500 gal tenders. 4085's first tended was No 1645. A 1906 production. Richard Ashenden

Yes and you are supposed to able to get 7 Ton of coal on the 3500 gal deck! Hard work for the fireman. If the 3500 gal tenders had sloping coal hopper?? back wall later in their lives, when were they changed? or were later lots built with the slope. From when? Richard A

Is this a photograph that Miss Prism is asking for? From Guy Williams book Shows 3000 gal and 3500 gal tenders with a flat deck and a cliff into a well. Richard A

In September 2007 the late Peter Rich submitted one of his many articles to "Model Engineer" This was called "Churchward's Rough Riders". He submitted drawings for the article. He chose to submit tender drawings of a "Dean" 4000 gal tender as modified in 1912 condition. He supplied a side elevation, both end elevations and a plan of the tender. He say there were 20 built, lot numbers A46/51/53/55/56 and A60. Works numbers 1456-1461, 1509-1518, 1539, 1560, 1561, 1582. The first 17 were built with coal rails, the last 3 with small plate side fender. They were modified to having plate coal rails in the first decade. All had flush rivets. The last four were specifically built for "Churchward" locomotives 100, 97/98 and 101. All other details comply with what JimC has written above. Peter says that the scoop was originally worked by a vacuum cylinder let into the well. As he has drawn the tender with a Steam Brake cylinder, I think he meant a Steam Cylinder. Similar cylinders can be seen in Russell Vol 1 GA drawings of the 3000 gal tenders. Identifying features. The back vertical hand rail was a standard 3000 gal one fixed at the bottom, usual place, just above the horizontal fixing angle. This meant that there was a longer gap between the upper stanchion and the top of the flare. The front vertical handrail finished at the flare with a bracket attaching it to the flare with an additional support at the bottom of the flare. Photographs of these details can be seen early on in Laurence Waters book on the Saint Class. The first nine or so had 4000 gal tenders. When the 3500 gal were built mid 1905, these were fitted to subsequent locomotives. The 1911 modifications. Peters drawing show a tender very similar to a 3500 gal standard tender. The Coal plates are now long like the 3500 gal tenders. The back handrail is the same, but the front handrail is turned over and attached to the coal plate/fender. Identifying Features The large gap from the top of the back stanchion to the top of the flare. The front handrail horizontal is level with the bottom of the cab cutout. For the 3500 gal tenders this hand rail is 4 inches lower than the cab cutout. Now wade through the the rest of Laurence Waters Saint book until you come to 2954 Tockenham Court on pages 126 and 133. You can see the horizontal part of the front handrail is level with the cab cutout. In other photographs the handrails are lower by the 4 inches. All as Peter Rich details. I think these are modern photographs of a D/C 4000 gal tender. This leaves a problem with Mike Wiltshire's 4000 gal tender. Richard

Thank you Chris. I wondered if any one has attempted to fix the roof profile. I have a Van 3rd, I think a RH D95, and have always wanted to correct the roof for a coach using Comet sides. I considered it not worth it. Why do manufactures get it wrong I wonder. The published GA drawings in the GW Journal and John Lewis's book do not give dimensions of the roof profile. I have only ever seen one drawing that does, and that is one by Stan Hunter of a rebuilt articulated 1st class. So what drawing was Mr Hunter looking at that gave him the dimensions? Richard

How accurate is the roof profile of these old Hornby Bow ended coaches. It does not seem correct to me. Richard