Edwardian

Yes, if only there was a publisher interested in doing fictitious blue liveries of saddle tanks you'd announced.

Very much my conclusion. So, given we have two pictures of the Calne train, yours usefully taken at some point before the publication of the article in 1907, what does this tell us about 517 livery? The key seems to me to be the trailer livery, which demonstrates the value of looking at Lewis and at locos and trailers together. In 1905 there are instances of both the standard intertwined monogram and no mongram. No.13 has the so-called 1906 prize monogram, so I went back to what Lewis says about the prize monogram in his SRM volume and, yes, it started to be used in 1905. The competion for the new monogram was run in the GWR Magazine in August 1905. No.13 trailer, built December 1905, was its first recorded use. I think both the photographs are likely to be taken by the GWR. The Lewis one has, as you suggest, has more of the official portrait look, while the one in your magazine article could be a 'staged in service' shot. It seems clear that these pictures represent the as-built condition, so seem also to place 517 No.1468 in its circa December 1905 condition. So, we have a nice idea of how a 517 was painted for auto-services in December 1905. There is the point you mention, with the dark patch on one side of the lower backsheet. Then there is the dome. Both pictures seem to show it painted. This may indicate we are seeing a rather rapid evolution of the brown livery during 1905, and appears to pre-date what is said of the general practice of dome painting. Lewis has no doubt about a change from brown to crimson and, as you say, notes a change in lettering style in the process that helps distinguish the two in B&W and might, therefore, be a guide to the colour of any 517 attached to one!

PS, the treatment of the Calne branch engine, with painted dome, reflects the Railway Magazine comment that the GWR had commenced painting domes, noted in October 1906 - a point I had forgotten - and that and the prize monogram on Trailer 13 suggests that the train was kept up to date in livery terms and the pictures, Harlequin's and the one in Lewis, date from this period, 1906. No, No.13 thought to be the first application of the prize monogram, when new in December 1905. Thanks for this. I recall this useful compendium from the Great Red Wagon Debate. Here is a reference for the experimental warm-brown carriage livery of 1903, and plenty, IMHO, to support the later general adoption of the brown livery. What surprises me is the description of the auto-tanks going into a reddish-brown livery, like the Isle of Wight Central (August 1906, p.12). This may fuel the idea that brown = red! My money is still on chocolate Auto-tanks from 1905 and brown coaches from 1908, but we'll see!

Quite so. The picture used shows a 517 in, apparently, lined brown (with cream inner surface to the backsheet) and a painted dome. The trailer is evidently a 70 footer and looks to have the short-lived 'prize' monogram. IIRC somewhare Lewis noting that the last use he saw of the prize monogram was on a SRM built December 1906. After this the Garter and supports are used. The length, the 9' volute bogies and the window/panel arrangement suggest to me that this a a diagram E or F trailer of November-December 1905. The slightly odd thing is that we have a nice portrait of the last of these 3 trailers. This is number 13, the sole diagram F, built in December 1905. I think it had its own diagram because one of its nominal third class sections was upholstered to suit the bum of the Marquess of Landsdowne and was it was assigned to work the Calne branch. It features the prize monogram, even though Lewis says that the competition to which the prize related was held in 1906. Thus, your picture looks like No.13, forming the Calne branch train, c.1906. Compare your picture with that of No. 13 in Lewis vol.1 p.67. A 517, possibly the same one as in your picture, shows the same livery features noted on your loco. Feeding this into the idea of brown locos, I think we say that initially, some (at least one) of the 517s were painted chocolate and cream, i.e. 1160 in, I'd say, May 1905. Next, and soon after, still in 1905 I'd say, the auto-tanks are turned out in all-over chocolate, the one(s) with cream overpainted chocolate. The domes are still polished brass. Later, probably c.1906, at least one is turned out with a painted dome, stillin all-over chocolate, which livery I suspect is applied to 517s on auto work up to 1912.

I can only repeat, I am agnostic on the point, as I have not yet seen evidence either way beyond the 1908 article reference, which certainly favours brown over crimson lake. For the GW to return to brown carriages under the austere regime of Churchward does not, however, strike me as an improbable notion.

The quote is from HMRS 1967. It cites the Railway Magazine 1908, but does not quote it. It does not cite the Railway Magazine 1908 as authority for the claim that the brown was warmer. While I am agnostic as to your theory, I am capable of imagining warm brown that differs noticeably from a crimson lake. If the change to lake in 1912 was not announced, I can see why it might be argued that the change to lake was to a brown-lake and happened in 1908 and that is what the Railway Magazine 1908 meant. There are a number of suppositions there, however, and I cannot see the case proven. The question that seems important to me is why it is conventional wisdom that there was a livery change to crimson lake in 1912. It was apparently not announced in the GWR Magazine. Are there internal documents that attest to it?

Anyone have an email address for GWSG, preferably the membership function? I can download, fill in and sign the membership application form electronically and can pay, indeed have paid, the subs online, so I really do not want to have to print off the form, address an envelope, drive some miles to the nearest post office and pay postage simply in order to achieve some days of unnecessary uncertainty and delay! I believe the society can email a newsletter, so presumably someone there has some familiarity with early 21st Century communication methods.

I have seen it, thanks. Always good to have a reference, I do not think the point was in doubt, however. The HMRS livery register (1967) also cites the Railway Magazine of October 1908, p.346, as the basis for its view that "It may have been as early as 1908 that the marked change to all-over brown took place. However, by 1909 it was well underway." Interestering, it adds "This brown was a warmer shade than that used previously" Thus, 517s painted brown, from some point in 1905 so far as I can tell, would be in coach chocolate to match the new trailers with which they were being paired on auto-workings, and may not have even matched 1908 brown when it came along. Query, then, whether, assuming 1908 brown wasn't coach chocolate, any 517s were painted/repainted to a different brown from 1908. I have my doubts, but still...

RIP Richard Tandy

I suppose the question depends upon whether the GW continued to paint 517s to match auto-trailers after it had abandoned loco lining in the Great War (and decided not to reintroduce it on tank engines). I haven't read anything on that. Unlined brown or crimson locos is not a thing I'd contemplated! I had rather assumed that from, IIRC c.1915, locos just went progressively into unlined green, with any lined chocolate or crimson 517s being treated like lined green 517s, ending up unlined green and staying that way. RCTS, however, does refer to the "distinctive colouring", by which the author might be referring to brown and crimson, lasting to 1924. I would be interested to learn of any other references to this.

The lining style certainly looks Wolverhampton to me.

I meant GWSG. Sorry if my reference to the Pannier failed to make that clear despite the missing initial! Used to be a member in the '90s/Noughties. I should rejoin but they seriously expect me to write a letter enclosing a cheque! I don't think I've had a cheque book since the Noughties! There do seem to be bank details in the application form, however!

I have now found a photograph of 1158. I don't have a date, but she is shown with open cab, round-top fire box, brass safety valve bonnet and green painted dome, with no trace I can see of lining, so I assume this is the plain green introduced in the Great War. I guess the date is post-WW1/early '20s. It might be that Dapol's version will be based off this picture.

I need to rejoin the GWS and get the forthcoming Pannier article, but I am coming to believe that when auto-trains were introduced, all the 517s allocated to such services were painted to complement the trailers, initally some in lined chocolate and cream, c.1905, but then painted and repainted all-over lined chocolate, and that back-sheets were fitted to these locos, perhaps with the odd exception, at the same time. Despite my initial assumptions, the lined chocolate locos were designed to complement fully-lined chocolate and cream trailers, the cream used on the uppoer portions of some 517s initially being quickly abandoned. Thus, whenever I see a picture of a lined 517 with brass dome fitted with a back-sheet and paired with a lined chocolate and cream auto-trailer, my working assumption is that I am looking at a chocolate loco, whereas, if I see a lined 517 with a brass dome and open cab hauling conventional carriage stock, my working assumption is it's green! I doubt those assumptions would stand up in all circumstances, but that seems to me the likely pattern!

1157 went to a belpaire f/b in 1917, so I would assumed unlined green from then and that is what is seen in this 1922 view.

It will be interesting to see what Dapol uses for '4S-517-002 524 Lined Chocolate - Closed Cab' It has so-far announced 3 physical versions - 'Open Cab', 'Closed Cab' and 'Collett Cab' The only illustration for the 'Closed Cab' version seen so far is this, representing '4S-517-004 523 G.W. Green GREAT WESTERN - Closed Cab': This shows a classic 1920s condition 517 to my mind. The straight-backed Swindon bunker has been squared off. The lined brown 517s, thus painted I guess from c.1905-1912, would not have had the bunker built up, and would have had a curved base to the backsheet. Bunker squaring off came later. I hope Dapol captures this. It does not seem beyond the reasonable bounds of the tooling suite to do so, given what they must already have catered for - extended cab roof for this version and the unmodified Swindon bunker for the open cab version. The only element not yet seen that would additionally be required is the original form of cab back-sheet. If so, we would actually have at least 4 physical variants in this first release. Additionally I note two 'open cab' versions announed: 4S-517-001 539 Lined G.W Green Red Frames - Open Cab 4S-517-003 1158 G.W. Green - Open Cab Some 517s entered into the plain green era without receiving cab back-sheets, but I am hoping for two lined green open cab versions here, one red-framed, one black. If not, I think repainting the frames of a red-framed lined green example would be relatively strightforward. It seems clear that the images release by Dapol not feature all the intended livery details, for instance, the red-framed open cab version No.539 must have lining, whereas the 1920s-looking closed-cab No.523 is labelled 'GREAT WESTERN' implyin that it will bear that, post-1923, wording on the tank sides. Really interested in seeing where Dapol are going to go with the 517s. For me, black and red-framed lined green examples for hauling conventional trains plus a brown lined closed cab version for auto-work seem to meet all reasonable pre-Grouping needs for the 1900s modeller. EDIT: - There does seem to be some evidence of built up bunkers in the lake carriage era, I've seen an example said to be 1912, but I don't think the brown ones would have beeen so treated at that stage of the livery. Also, on closed cab 523, I wonder that the number plate is not further to the tank rear to accommodate GREAT WESTERN, unless dealt with by Wolvehampton?

PS, if anyone is interested in seeing an absolutely stunning portrait of a 517 in the 'chocolate and cream' livery, I have now had a shuffle through the old book shelf. The picture in question, showing No.1160 in its post 1901 long w/b guise, paired with trailer No.4 (Diagram B1) is reproduced in the Edwardian Enterprise volume at p.125. EDIT: It's also tucked away at the back of Lewis vol.2 at p.326. The scene is Southall, and both loco and trailer look pretty clean, if not immaculate, with the trailer in its as-new 1905 lined chocolate and cream with standard mongram. 1160 has a cab-backsheet, the interior of which appears a dirtied cream. The picture of 1165 with trailer No.4, in what I guess is most likely all-over chocolate, is reproduced in Lewis vol.1 at p.5. The cream interior of the back-sheet is clearly seen. Again, No.4 is looking immaculate and new, so again I guess probably c.1905. The scene is Trumpers Halte Crossing. The official portrait of trailer No.4 is reproduced in Lewis vol.1 at p.34. Turning to the trailer allocations in Lewis vol.2, this seems to confirm the dating of the above referenced photographs. When new in February 1905, trailer No.4 is shown as paired with steam railmotor No.30, which unit, according to the Lewis SRM volume, was new in January 1905 and went to Laira. Thus, trailer No. 4 seems to have begun life on Plymouth workings. By April 1905, returning to Lewis vol.2, it's at Croes Newydd, but is allocated to Southall in May 1905. There it stays until 1907. Thus, the pictures with 517s 1160 and 1165 must date in the range May 1905 to 1907. Returning to Lewis vol.1, the Dapol autocoach is a Diagram N trailer of 1907 and Lewis reproduces (p.118) two views, dated as c.1907, of No.37 at Abbotsbury paired with 517 No. 531. This seems to confirm what I suggested about the livery in which the N trailers would have been out-shopped; in the lower view I believe I can see the: (i) the running number with 'No.' pre-fix on both sides and end. (ii) the running number on the waist further inboard from the driving end than in Dapol's 1922 livery version (ii) the Garter supporter directly beneath the running number. According to the RCTS list, 531 is one of the 517s that went into contemporary carriage livery. From what we have seen on brown 517s preceding brown carriage livery, it might be that 531 went into brown in 1907 to pair with trailer No.37. Note the loco has a cab back-sheet fitted, but its interior does not appear cream. Query whether the cream back-sheet interior is a hang-over from locos initially painted chocolate and cream but then going into all-chocolate? According to Lewis, trailer No.37 seems to have been a Weymouth trailer from new all the way to the early 1940s.

RIP Duane Eddy

Not my models and I posted them merely to illustrate the two liveries. You are not wrong, however, concerning 1160. She certainly did wear the chocolate and cream livery, however, as this seems to have been a move associated with auto-working, I agree that it does not seem possible she would wear the livery in short w/b condition. She went to long w/b in 1901, I believe, and was caught on camera in that form in chococolate and cream paired with trailer No.4 As this trailer was built in February 1905 (and wears the standard monogram, therefore), I would hazard the suggestion that the paint job of 1160 dated from around that time. Trailer No.4 is also pictured - in as new condition - with 1165, which, with cab-back and cream inside of back sheet, I would guess is in brown, which may be evidence consistent with the forthcoming pannier article, suggesting that the choc and cream scheme was soon abandoned in favour of all-over brown up to three years before the change in carriage livery. As for 572, as you say, it is not in the list of lake or brown liveried 517s in RCTS, though note that the list does not purport to be exhaustive. Still, unless there is a picture knocking around showing 572 in brown (hard to tell from a B&W picture without a cream inside back sheet), it would not be an obvious choice! Neither of the models have back-sheets, and, brown, lake or green, I do not recall many pictures of an auto-fitted 517 without a back sheet, though short w/b 835 is an exception to prove the rule. The good news is that it seems perfectly reasonably to run a brown liveried 517 with one of Dapol's 1907 trailers in 1906 Garter livery. I suspect the model trailer represents the 1922 reconstituted lined choc and cream; I have a dim recollection of checking this. IIRC, the as-new fully lined chocolate and cream as applied to the Diagram N trailers in 1907 would have been the Garter and supporters. I suggest the supporters would have been placed below the running numbers in the waistband. The running numbers would be prececeded by 'No.' and there would have been no 'G W R' on the waist above the Garter, all of which suggests that Dapol is here showing us 1922 livery: There are some later physical features that would need to be dealt with, perhaps most obviously the gong, so the livery amendments would not add much to the task of back-dating.

Well, brown and cream locos did. Rightly or wrongly I assumed that Dapol's description of brown livery meant the all over brown, which would seem to tie it to the change in coach livery, though I note what is said of the forthcoming Pannier articles, that all-over brown might have anticipated the change in carriage livery. There is also the chocolate and cream coach-bodied variant!

detente?

That's not ugly. If you want ugly...

I really do seem to have strayed onto a pannier topic. In terms of what might be a suitable branch goods service loco, by the 1950s, the real Ashburton was seeing both 4400 and 4500 locos used, but I am not sure when that started. In the dim recesses I have some recollection that a 4400 might have run there in the '30s, but I am questioning myself now! Beck and Copsey say that 1854 Class panniers were associated with the Ashburton goods working, which had a couple of tons greater on the axle weights than the 2120s and 5 more than the 850s had. No sign of an 850 on the branch, BTW, so far as I know. I think we know of a 2120, one of the smaller classes of course, on the branch in the '20s as it was captured in a photograph, but otherwise the evidence is pretty scant. On the Ashburton branch, 517s ran the passenger service of 4-wheelers and were on auto-workings from 1927 until the aforementioned advent of the first 4800 in 1936. 4500s ran on the Mortenhampstead branch from early days.

Indeed, though many modellers seem to feel happy sending a variety of locos on goods trips along their little branchlines, including Collet and Dean tender 0-6-0s (apart from anything else, classes not really seen in Ashburton country in the thirties. People naturally use what is available RTR. Nor do people feel constrained not to run GW diesel railcars down 'Ashburton' branches. I daresay many people will be using the Dapol non-corridor Mainline & City toplights out of their very limited prototype context and formations. I was not advocating the use of 5700s on a branch line, but that is clearly something modellers may likely do on a branch layout and, if so, is perhaps no more egregious than the common practices I mention above. While I do think that honourable members have, thus, seized upon an irrelevance here, obviously I clearly regret ever including the word "panniers" in my off the cuff list of recent GWR releases/announcements and should have driven red-hot spikes into my eyes instead, as that would seem to be less painful! Yes, back to little tank engines. Personal preferences .... there is much to celebrate here. As the 517 is a key loco for me, I will certainly not stint on my choices. My own choice for a mid-thirties 'Ashburton' would be a brace of 517s. Ashburton itself always seems to have had a couple earmarked to it at any given time to swop in and out. While I have often regretted the lack of a pre-war condition 4800, that is in the context of there being no RTR 517. Now there will be a RTR 517, frankly, I don't feel I need a 4800, but that is a personal preference. I will probably buy a 4800 in as-built condition, though, just because now there is one and that just makes me happy! For branch goods, my RTR choice would be the 4400. I don't have an 850 in pannier guise. For pre-Grouping, I love there is a round-top firebox version with the straight-back Swindon bunker, because that is a fairly representative variant by the 1900s. It should be lined, I should have thought, whether red-framed or a pre-Great War black-framed version. Candidly, the prospect of any pre-Grouping condition 517 gives me such joy. The black frames perhaps more useful, but I'd take both. I do have a mix of 4, 6 and 8 wheel carriages more or less suitable for branch work. They tend to be in the garter iteration of lined chocolate and cream, so, I am hovering around c.1907 as a setting, and my Kernow steamrailmotor, if I can bear the sight of those black centre doors and gigantic lamps, is a fit with that. Thus, a lined 517 with black frames would seem ideal. It also means that I might now consider the Dapol autocoach. I have not really paid attention to it and I have some vague memory that the fully-lined chocolate and cream version of No.40 is the 1922 rather that the 1906 livery variant, but I don't recall why I might have thought that! I will have to go back and check. It might be worth seeing if the No.40 model can be made to represent the 1907 as-built condition (seen on the Newquay branch at the time, I believe). I understand there is to be a brown 517 as announced. As they were painted thus to match carriage livery, it is worth noting that Dapol has announced autocoaches in both lined chocolate and cream and lined lake, but not the lined brown of 1908. It may be that the Diagram N trailers never went into brown, of course, but it leaves me feeling the brown-liveried 517 version, while attractive, is perhaps the most redundant. For a pre-Grouping branch goods, I have am fortunate enough to possess an 850 saddle tank, so perhaps may be spared censure.

Always interesting to chart progress at Totnes. The Italianate pumping station tower is gone (it was still there in 1938), but the footbridge roof is clinging on in part.