Din

17 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Two different films, two different licences. Legal complications with one needn't impinge on the other.

 

Mind you, Hornby's take on "The Railway Children Return", as so far announced, looks rather half-arsed.

 

John 

To be fair, so is the film by the looks of things!

You can find a picture of the ghastly 4f here, seems Hornby has it spot on.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/heritage-and-retro/heritage/actress-jenny-agutter-meets-keighley-and-worth-valley-railway-volunteers-who-drove-engines-in-the-1970-film-on-set-of-the-railway-children-sequel-3281976

25 minutes ago, Kris said:

Copyright law changed in 1956, before this the laws were different, particularly for films. 

That still puts it at "life of author+50" by a quick read of the 1911 act as classified by a dramatic work. So if we go by T.E.B Clarke, still places it fairly deep in danger. (2039 for public domain) Never mind the aggresive IP protection attitude of Studio Canal/Vivendi.

8 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Similarly,  does Rapido have the will to fight this through the court?  I am sure that Hornby would have run their "Trains on Film" proposal through their legal department before making any announcements or do they really believe that they were untouchable.  Look to the very smug Mr. Kohler,  he looks very confident.  Hornby could very well lose some friends over this act of bastardry.

Well, let's see, Studio Canal had an income last year of 360 million euros (£300 million in a pandemic). Oh yeah, they're also owned by Vivendi.

Ya know, the people that have taken Google to court twice and won.

20 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

To be honest the OOC Bedford OB looks like it was made from Milliput so Rapido's OB will wipe the floor with it.

I suppose it will all come down to whether Hornby's "inspired by the Titfield Thunderbolt" gets them off the hook, and how long copyright lasts for films (isn't it 70 years or so?  I remember Cliff Richard getting upset because his early stuff was running out of copyright and he was still drawing breath).  Either way it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, I was quite interested in the "Lady with the Lamp" set as a rule 1 purchase (would look fun running on Dolgellau and the grockles will love it) but I'm not sure I want to reward possible piracy...

For films it's 70 years after the death of the director, screenplay author and composer. Charles Chricton (Director) only left us in 1999.T.E.B Clarke (Screenplay) in 1989 and George Auric in 1983. So Thunderbolt doesn't enter the public domain until 2069 (nice).

21 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

More originality from Hornby - looks like the latest announcement from 'copycats r us.  Yet again (see 'wagons' the only bit of originality they can come up with is something from way back in the 19th century although even that I do wonder if that coaching stock was still running in that sort of condition at the time of the Crimean War?

No, but it's the train used in the film. So while it likely isn't, but is what was on screen.

8 minutes ago, Vanguard 5374 said:

I’ve got to say going by RRP and the Hornby name, if they have legally got around this by doing a “inspired by” range, money will talk. The RRP is lower than the competition and of course joe public will know of Hornby but have no idea who Rapido are. Will be interesting to see how both compare but o can’t see Hornby doing something like this without getting their legal team involved first.

The fact they tried the weak excuse of "These things actually exist so its fair game" says all that they hope will wash legally. Mostly because stuff like the OB Bus does exist and is wandering about as we speak, apparently owned by a company called Lodges and loaned/rented out accordingly. Same with Lion, same with the flatwagon, toad and the coach body. "They all exist so we can model them, HAH!" seems to be the thinking behind Koheler's folly.

It's going to be expensive. Or we'll get a hilarious farce of Hornby being able to issue everything bar Dan's House or something under a different name.

7 minutes ago, GWRtrainman said:

Perhaps the armchair experts on Copyright should take 1 minute to check before they state what is already registered. I did:

You realise copyright law is automatically applied, right?

EDIT: Some types of IP rights are also, ya know, applied automatically.

20 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Could Hornby not simply manufacture "Lion" with no published reference to Titfield?  I had assumed that "Lion" was simply an extension of the recently released "Rocket" and era 1 coaches and rolling stock.

The smart move would've been to launch the "Movie range" with the Lady with the Lamp, or issue Lion seperately and call it a day.

Doing this inspired by, and using the names of Thunderbolt, Peirce and Crump and Mallingford are all hilariously copyrighted phrases related to the film. Like beyond open and shut, a judge would look at this, laugh and award money to Rapido and Studio Canal+. Same as the liveries of Dan's coach and the bus are IP related too, if I remember rightly.

Outright malicious because they wanted the rights only to find they'd already been sold to Rapido.

11 minutes ago, burgundy said:

What uses did the coke have? Given that early locos burned coke, would it have ended up at the local loco depot or would the likely volume have been insufficient for the railways' needs. 

Conversely, where railway companies owned their own coking ovens,  would that have generated similar by-products or was the process different?

Best wishes 

Eric

Steel production, coke is great for that. Burns clean and hot and thus doesn't put any impurities (namely sulfur) into the metal.

On 10/04/2021 at 16:58, GeraldH said:

Meanwhile further improvements and landscaping have been taking place on the Pewsley extension and the push pull service is seen awaiting departure from Platform 1.

 

What's the push pull set? Looks good!

Any idea which section the collection is coming under? I wouldn't mind browsing the LNWR and MR sections...

On 16/12/2021 at 11:34, wainwright1 said:

Hi DIN.

Just been scanning your blog again.

I have been in discussion with Woko, and would certainly like some of his 4mm wagons and coaches, the SE & CR and LC & DR ones especially.

Be pleased to hear if you decide to produce these.

 

All the best

Merry Christmas

Ray

And Happy New Year! Just spent a delightful fortnight with the missus in Wales with her family (though half of them got COVID) 

So, updates for all!

I'd love to produce stuff from Woko and others who're looking to hand off kits to a production house or have their own popular lines but find the cottage industry aspect tiring or too time consuming. (I beleive Turbosnail of this parish is still casting his net about for his own wagons which were produced similarly).

So, to whit.

The underlying system, at its most basic, is now programmed and whirring away doing its... programming things. I'd pretend to be more technical with this but at the time my business partner called me excitedly about how he'd finished it, I was tired and had just completed a wonderful five mile walk in the stunning Ogmore Vale, which thanks to the health issues myself and my partner suffer from left us utterly knackered the next day.

There was talk that an API will be built that means, if you wanted to, you could basically have your storefront on your own blog or website, but production still done by us, a sort of "Powered by" thing. All part of the evolution of our systems in order to make it convenient for both parties.

So my own job (once recovered from the drive) will be to do some of the marketing side, grabbing a few more of those names of people interested in being pioneers (Again, please drop me a message if you have not done so already). As well as plotting the future direction of both the underlying system (we plan to offer it out to people eventually) and other proposals of projects for our own.

On 23/11/2021 at 18:42, woko said:

I'm still waiting for the Prusa XL to come out, its been teased for over a few years now! And would be ideal for some of the terrain projects I have in mind! 

And even though I have finally got my Sonic 8K out of the box and on the bench, I have still yet to give it a go.... shocking I know!

Realistically probably won't be until next year now  

Not heard of the 'Rocket 1' that sounds interesting?

 

 

 

Promo video here. Basically it's flipping the CLIP process upside down (because the patent seemed to specify the orientation) and instead dunks the print in as it creates it.

End result, however, is a print speed of initially 280mm/hr and seems to be increasing to 360mm/hr thanks to their colab with Chitubox.

I'm keeping an eye on it, as I've never heard of HiTry (despite claiming 30+ years in the 3d printing world, so from the dawn of it basically.) But if this turns out to all be true... well.

It'd certainly make smaller orders very easy for me to carry out. 

26 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I definitely think that’s a good move. Whilst people won’t want to buy resin printers for any number of reasons they’re extremely accessible. Having some Jupiter/Sonic Mega 8k printers would be a big step forward, as they bring huge challenges that folk may not want to deal with! The Sonic Mega is usefully bigger than the Jupiter FWIW; you can’t print O gauge 20m rolling stock in a Jupiter. 

Well I've already decided continous improvement is probably my best route forward rather than sinking too much money into this whole project and it not panning out. I'm also exploring a couple of leads on being able to offer lost-investment casting. I suspect larger and larger machines will become my aim medium term as it simply makes the most sense. A Prusa XL is a very likely purchase and suitable to buildings and some larger scale stuff, but in FDM.

I suspect that some 0 gauge stuff may have to come out kit-like in the interim, however. I know of one chap in South Wales who had a decent amount of success using FDM printers this way.

4 minutes ago, woko said:

This is fantastic News Din, and thanks for the update, as I say i'm actually very keen to potentially upload my stuff to your site should you need more content, I also have a few bits of terrain for bolt action, or buildings for 00gauge railways, that I would also be keen to get out there, however I think this will need larger machines than the ones you have currently listed so may not be appropriate for now

Exciting stuff though and do keep us all posted

 

Cheers

 

Rob

My current purchasing plan for further printers does include a Elegoo Jupiter when they are released to ensure I can print the bigger items without having to slice them down, 278 x 156 x 300 mm on those.

On 08/11/2021 at 23:46, woko said:

@Din Hello chap, how is your project for a UK Shapeways coming along sir? Any joy?

 

Cheers

 

Rob

Hello, sorry for not being about keeping an eye on this topic. I have indeed been busy with life, other matters and indeed this project.

So, to update somewhat, I have my machines in, workshop set up nicely, and have been doing various test printings of numerous items. I've sent a few off to my friend to paint up for me and hope to post some pictures thereabouts soon.

My friend and business partner in this venture decided he did not like any currently available e-commerce platform to do this site (and other possible future projects) justice so is currently hard at work constructing the necessary software and other site architecture while I handle other parts I can. Quite fun stuff.

I've also began eyeing up various printers which are likely to be coming in 2022 with some excitement. (The Rocket 1, if not a scam, changes just about everything within a buildspace not much smaller than the Elegoo Mars 3)

I was at the Burton 7mm Narrow gauge AGM as a good friend of mine is a member and got me an extra ticket, so did chat with and make some contacts there including the brilliant Hope Mountain Models who's planning a nice range of 7mm RTR models using 3d printing but currently lacks the facilities to manufacture parts himself.

So, because of all of this we're likely to launch a temporary website either during December or within the new year which will have models available to me in the interim (which are largely tabletop figures) while we finalise how shops/storefronts work for individual users.

5 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Ruston.

 

Ruston 48DS. 

 

Both with very similar avatars.

 

This is going to get confusing.... 

So your names not Bruce Ruston then?

31 minutes ago, njee20 said:

FWIW you can’t get someone to send Gcode on resin printers, the file outputs of a sliced file include all the resin parameters and are specific to each type of machine, so a file sliced for a Mars 2 won’t work on a Mars 3 or whatever. With the new Chitubox version even the firmware on the machine matters. You can save a supported file as an STL, which would obviously work - this is how stuff can be purchased ‘pre-supported’. 
 

Removing supports on cured models is a hideous process, so you’re absolutely right to be doing that, it’s totally non-negotiable I’d say!

 

Holding onto the money for 2 months feels a tough sell, people moan about eBay taking 2 days. I get you’re avoiding having to ask for money back, but that feels like you’re punishing the creators just in case a purchaser wants a refund. Particularly if you’re just using easily available machines that the designers could buy for a couple of hundred pounds - you need to think what your USP will be here. 

That is a good point I had misunderstood on that part, as I am a bit tired at the moment and thinking of a hundred things a minute. I am obviously thinking of the citubox profiles and files often supplied with some fantasy minatures I have to hand and presupported .stl files as opposed to being able to send over gcode because of the underlying settings per machine. You're quite right. I suspect the majority of prints would be via me doing the slicing myself so I can best tweak it.

For the rest. I'll take it on board and consider it. I'd rather garuntee designers the money with a delay, than give it and take back.

3 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

I'm interested, and could upload some STL files for tests. My stuff is only appropriate for the resin printers.

 

To make this a viable replacement for Shapeways, we'd some agreements on how printability is worked out. Who does the support generation? How many iterations of test prints (with support variations) are needed to prove printability, and what cost to whom? What's the consistency of prints after printability is proven? If a third-party customer is unhappy with the results, how is this resolved and who pays?

 

There's also the question of spruing parts. At Shapeways one has to sprue repeats of the same part. On my home printer, it's usually better not to.

 

Would the resin parts be supplied trimmed or on their supports? How fully cured would they be?

 

Shapeways FUD prints seem to be a little more robust that resin prints on my home machine. There are things that I can print at home but they break too easily in service so I don't bother. We'd need to know the minimum feature-sizes for the resin. If it's "no wires or walls thinner than 1 mm", then none of my range is viable. Also, if a print does happen to break during washing, who pays for the replacement?

 

Sorry if this seems a bit picky, but to make 3rd-party sales work well we have to sort all this out. I'm sure that there are workable solutions if we don't have a rabid pack of shareholders making things difficult. If some prints are commercially infeasible (i.e. only OK for printing at customer's risk) then that's understandable, but we'd need to know before putting them on sale.

Whoof! Brilliant points. No worry on being picky, I'd like to have these ideas bounced and feedback given so I know what people want who want to try and use my service.

If we're going with repeats of the same part, then I don't see why you couldn't put a few on a file as opposed to putting them all into an awkward sprue. The flexibility offered there would be because I'd be using printers similar to your own, just more of them available. If you upload say, a dozen buffers, or a detail pack, then the sensible solution would be you can specify what way you want it printed.

For smaller parts that require some toughness, perhaps we could consider tough resins?  Looking about costs-wise we'd be looking at a higher cost per gram, but the trade off is that more reassuring strength. So perhaps those more finicky and smaller parts of your own? We can also tag that one as "at customer's risk" if it's something experimental.

Being as resin is toxic when not fully cured, for the safety of myself, Royal Mail and the customer everything will be fully washed and cured before being sent out. A large jewlers sonic bath and big curing machine is on my to-buy list as I am still in the set up and this thread is judging demand, interest and other parts not considered.

I will try my best to cut all supports off before sending them out. If this has to change due to sheer demand then I will either let people know beforehand, or pressgang  get some of my friends to come help out as they foolishly kindly offered to assist me during the early days. I could even offer people a slightly cheaper model without that "prep" work meaning the model arrives still on its supports for you to do everything yourself. I beleive this is what Hardy's Hobbies does for the "detail pack" for their models as I have one of their 16" bagnalls

As for support generation, my friend and business partner is currently pushing for us to do all of that in-house, however as I know a number of people, especially some of the "pioneers" interested in this thread will have already done that themselves in their own prototyping and printing phase I'll begin pushing for us to also accept g-code as you know it will have been viable on your own machines for personal use, and thus should work fine for printing here. It's also what a lot of third party creators increasingly do when selling their own models for 3d printing, the minatures market especially does this.

Now, if a print fails on my end, or breaks during washing, then it will most likely be my fault, and will simply accept it as part of the risks of printing.

Customer-wise, if there is disatifaction and a refund then I think we can follow the standard law here, so within 14 days for any reason (distance selling). This will likely mean I'd hold off sending the money on to creators for 2 months so that if sales have to be cancelled and refunded, nobody is effected.

1 minute ago, woko said:

I have the phrozen 8k on order to dude, looking forward to its eventual arrival, however apparently despite the mono screen its super slow

From what I understand its to ensure the prints are viable, same with the holybuildplate. I wonder if it's not a setting thing as well as the website claims a nice and breezy 70mm/hr but the people who've had one have said how slow it is.

1 minute ago, woko said:

Would this new larger printer happen to be the phrozen 8k by chance 

Sounds it, don't it?

They're doing a nice double pack n all right now... just a shame the shipping is horrific.

7 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I'm happy to help out Din, I've plenty of designs from N to O gauge. I have my concerns if you're only just ordering the DLP printers (are they actually DLP, as opposed to MSLA?) about how well you're going to be able to handle things like supporting and orientation, but I assume you know your way around a resin printer! What size will you be able to handle too? Even OO gauge items are often tickling 300mm long, which very quickly becomes an issue in most mid-size printers.  

 

Unfortunately they arrive when they arrive and I rather fancied some 4k ones. You're right, they are MSLA but most of these terms seem constantly interchangable and sometimes a bit cross eyeing to follow. If I type in both DLP and MSLA 3d printer, the same printers appear so probably some confusion elsewhere as well!

I've been tinkering with both my filament and resin printers for a while so know about orientation (and yes, even the calculations to get the prints at their best!) so feel confident in getting stuff out and going to people.

From the feedback here, I had initially hoped to get things at least rolling and money coming in before investing in the larger resin printers as they had been on the plan (I suspect you're getting the same ones I'd buy) so this just means a slight reshuffle which I'd been told to expect in any plan anyway. It's no worry, and simply moves when I'd have hoped to be up and running to offer a better service.

7 minutes ago, woko said:

Well it sounds good to me Din, I would happily trial some of my stuff on your site when its up and running, as I certainly have no intention on using shapeways because of it being so expensive, for both the creators and buyers a like, but I do hope you can get it to work, and it would be awesome to have a dedicated platform for 3d printed railway modelling and miniatures for folks to sell or buy from.

I'm largely keeping an eye on others in the field, so folks like Hardy's Hobbies, CWrailways under its new owner etc. They all point to a £35-45 tolerance for locomotive bodies, for example. People who do print themselves know its largely a time and labour cost versus material and machine.

I suspect the price point will be similar, and would likely reccomend FDM prints of buildings on a costs and suitability basis.

2 hours ago, woko said:

Hello Din

 

This sounds like a fantastic idea chap, I could well be interested as I much prefer spending my time creating and prototyping new designs than printing models out. I have quite a bit of stuff potentially, mostly 4 mm wagons, and 4 - 6 wheel carriages, some buildings, along with some 7mm stuff I am working and some Bolt action wargame buildings also I have been working on, be good to know what you are thinking of charging, obviously dependant on the model size/time etc?

Big fan of the workbench thread.

Pretty much this!

To break it down so people understand costs as I see it at the moment:

Material would be charged on pennies per gram basis with perhaps a charge of a penny above or so of actual cost to ensure any short term price fluctations are absorbed, or a pool can be built to buy more material in bulk. I feel this would help against sudden jumps and if there's big price rises they can be absorbed in the medium term and give everyone plenty of time to adjust to any larger price changes.

Time of the print would also be calculated and costed as you're effectively filling up/taking up the machine time, so mostly charging wear and tear, the small electricity cost and to get the printers to "pay for themselves" relatively quickly.

Then myself slicing/processing/post processing and keeping me alive cost. I suspect its the labour cost which would be the biggest "jump" versus doing it for yourself, but as you say you want to model, prototype and tweak while I could then flog them on your behalf on demand.

The big change I'd like to see is I want creators to get a bit of a decentish money back versus the joke of Shapeways and its pennies per model for creators. The site won't work without enthusiastic creators putting products on my site to sell, so I'd like to see people get pounds back, not pennies. If people have models they want to "freebie" as some friends have offered to me, then I shall donate their portion, and a portion of my own costs to charity. Either local ones in my area, or a railway themed one.

If all the above results in Shapeway level prices then the biggest win would be on shipping. No more £14 shipping costs for anyone in the UK. If I can pan it out (or try and level out the cost across many orders) standard shipping will either be a flat fee, or free.

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

Din,

Will the users of your service retain the IP of their designs or is transferring the IP so you can sell the prints part of your business model?
I’m interested in being able to print 4mm 70ft coaches so will you have a non filament option that can accommodate c280mm?

drduncan

I'd have to check the exact legality side of that (mostly for the boilerplate in the EULA) but by my understanding I'd operate as a fulfilment service, meaning your IPs remain your own and you are selling them via my service. I'm charging you for slicing, printing and shipping (and keeping me alive).

As for the larger build space in resin, yes, but it will likely be towards the end of the year, if not early next year when it is available. 

1 hour ago, Quarryscapes said:

 

Are you saying you have a print farm of SLS, FDM and SLA printers at your disposal and just need a website to turn it into a marketplace? 

FDM and DLP. I have the FDM printers here already, DLP resin printers on order and my business partner working on the website side. Build volumes will be posted with an eye to larger machines if demand requires it. But as my aim is the model railway and Tabletop minatures market I don't see the larger machines as an immediate necessity.

What I will be looking for is volunteers to test out the useability of the site to ensure we have no blind spots as well as uploading .obj and .stl models as well as payment to and from the site and creators, alongside any improvements that either of us may not see, but people from the outside would. Those little tweaks and useability things that maybe people don't like on other marketplaces such as Shapeways and Etsy etc.

EDIT: When up and running I'd also print off some models for sale at shows, etc, and ensure creators get their share back from physical models sold.