CarriageShed

However, I need to make a decision - SER black or the full Wainwright?

Or Maunsell Green for the best livery! That's what I'll be doing with my F1 version in N.

Keep up the great work. I love the progress being made in terms of 3D printing for railway modelling. It's highly encouraging.

Underground overground or is that overground underground?

I think you'll find that underground overground is Wombling free...

Most Farish tender locos come with a spare 'scale' bogie which I've used on a number of projects as an alternative to the N Brass offering. Unfortunately I don't think anyone will be prepared to offer a range of driving wheels, check out Ebay, Beaver wheels regularly pop up and they've been out of production for decades. Even the 2mmSA doesn't produce every size and there would be far more demand down the 2mm route.

Having measured up my pile of spares the rear pair of drivers of a Dapol B17 are 13mm over the tread and 14mm over the flanges so close enough for the 7' drivers of the real thing with a 18mm wheelbase  so only 1mm over the 8' 6". Depending how it looks under the body it may not be necessary to scratch build the chassis. I'll keep looking though as something else may turn up to be closer.

As for sourcing new wheels I think DCC Supplies still have stock of B17 wheelsets and I've often rung the Farish spares department to buy spare wheelsets.

Hmm... Sourcing a Terrier for the tender motor and a B17 for the loco chassis means that the costs for this project are quickly escalating beyond the reasonable... and I'd guess this would be true for a larger proportion of the N gauge modellers who are interested in it. On a personal note the only way I could justify it is if the B17 was being offered for a tenner as 'spares or repair', with a knackered loco body or tender motor.

I've seen the odd pack of Beaver wheels on eBay, but the only ones visible at the moment are 6' 6'...

Anyway, please do keep on trying to find a closer/better solution. I guess we won't really know for certain until you get your hands on the finished 3D print.

But if you went finescale all the parts you need for a loco chassis are available from the 2MM Scale Association shop! :-)

 

Jim

Nice try, Jim, but I'm not going finescale. Just fine N gauge

Can I be held responsible for it if a printer did the work?

 

Thanks for all the kind comments everyone, I'll try and answer some questions about availability later, but just as a gauge for now: how would you prefer the models to be distributed?

 

As a kind of rough poll, as I don't want to open this up to the entire site in the poll section:

- please rate this post as 'funny' if you'd prefer just the prints, as is shown above and source your own wheels/parts etc (although I will provide a list of recommended bits),

- or rate this post as 'friendly/supportive' if you'd prefer a full boxed kit with wheels, motor, gears etc. (I'm not sure how this would work out with reselling other people's parts though)

 

If I have a rough idea, then I can crack on with working out logistics and so forth.

I rated it 'funny' because I'm not sure how you'd be able to source the parts for a full boxed kit in N gauge anyway.

Having said that, there's a confirmed need to construct a scratchbuilt loco chassis, so providing the driver wheels would be very handy. At least noting the best existing N chassis to get hold of for parts would be helpful. I'm not sure that you can get N driving wheels separately - someone else will know better than me. The bogie can be sourced from N Brass Locos.

You can't yet. We're all encouraging and helping where we can so that just that thing happens.

If you're happy with modelling materials to be added alongside source material then Peedie Models have produced a set of etched windows and doors for Evercreech Junction's stone buildings. They're available in N gauge but, if they're not already available in larger sizes, just drop Peedie a quick line and he'll almost certainly zap them up to bigger scales for you.

The thread is on 'the other forum':
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38211.msg455433#msg455433

To add a bit more to the N gauge discussion about this project, I wish I could claim this as my own idea, but the truth is I still greatly rely on others to come up with the smarts!
 

Is the Terrier chassis without its body heavy enough to be used as a tender drive? Would replacing the weighted Dapol body with a 3D printed plastic (featherweight) tender top body produce a drive that won't pull anything (just like the M7)?

A suggestion made to me is that the tender design alone is made available to be printed in a metal. Apparently Shapeways do metal via a casting process. You may not get quite the detail but it will make a big difference to haulage.
 

https://www.shapeways.com/materials

What do you guys think? Possibly even some details could be added to the tender afterwards, such as mounted springs (available from BH Enterprises) and real coal.
 

You will get some results, but not necessarily the ones you want.

As a non-programmer, that's always been my experience with searching on Shapeways. It can be intensely frustrating and rarely results in a long search. I can probably get better results by entering a Google search.

Thanks for the replies , I am assuming it would be the elusive volume 2 which would be best?

It would be, yes. You won't find complete set numbers for all carriages, though. Those records just don't exist to that degree of completeness. You will find a few set numbers where they've been uncovered by the author, and Set 61 at least is mentioned (56ft composites).

...Trouble with some in the hobby is that they can not see it from anyone else's perspective. Comments like, what stops someone being able to do something is not spending enough time practising. Not everyone has every skill, otherwise we would all be brain surgeons!

Tongue firmly in cheek, of course...

Thanks! It probably got lost in the blizzard of emails I get from Shapeways.

And I don't get any, despite checking my settings to make sure that I should. This redesign is a bit clunky. The logo choice alone is... unfortunate.

I asked Etched Pixels about the availability of the Ironclad Pantry Third, but that was over a week ago now, and he hasn't replied.

Update 06 Aug 2018: He replied. The Ironclads are on a list of stock that needs to be replenished, but he's not sure when it'll happen.

'Railway Liveries of the Southern Railway', Brain Haresnape, has a very dark colour photo of F1 No 1043 in 1937 after repainting and still without its tender - rivets. rebuilt cab, dome, and extended firebox.

'Southern Steam 1923-39' in the Bradford Barton series has F1s No 1187 and No ? (p10), No A233 (p13), No A149 (p23), No 1079 and No 1089 (p40), and No 1204 (p63) with all of the above too. There's a Class F No A222 on p8 with short smokebox (still with rivets), half-dome (flat-top), and old cab.

All the rivet photos I've seen so far are post-Grouping.

Thanks, a mine of information there! That sounds like there's nothing major I've missed then. I guess it comes back to the old advice of modelling a locomotive you have a photo of in that condition, seems like there are a fair few to choose from in the book. I might have to try and get myself a copy of it sometime.

It's a highly useful book to have. I also have the three LSWR volumes because that's my primary modelling area. With them you'll also get shed allocations for chosen periods in the history of the class (or you can ask me), and they're not especially expensive via our favourite online auction site.

Okay, D L Bradley in 'The Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway', 1963 says:

Class F original build

1883-1897 (p98); Stirling cab, no dome, steam reverser; Patrick Stirling-similar chimneys (early members), plain cast chimneys (later members); Smith's simple vacuum until 1888, then the automatic system replaced it as servicing came around; Nos 156 & 172 fitted with Westinghouse system.

Between May 1892 and April 1903 new boilers built at Ashford and fitted to many engines (p102), similar to the old ones but with deeper fireboxes.

Class F1 rebuilds
New domed boilers between 1903-1920: new cylinders and square cabs; but same overall boiler dimensions. Those rebuilt between 1903-1914 had short smokeboxes, but 1915-1920 had extended smokeboxes (p103). All shorter smokeboxes were extended by 1924 (some Class Fs were still domeless even by this date, which is when withdrawals started - p104 - but a few more F1 boilers were added to remaining Fs in 1925). All remaining locos soldiered in until withdrawn.

Rivets
Bradley doesn't mention these in his text.

Fig 50, though shows an early F (no 208 in 1884) and I can't see any rivets in the smokebox.
Fig 51 shows No 240 in 1889 - no rivets
Fig 52 shows No A172 in 1928 - rivets! (and old cab)
Fig 53 shows No 140 in 1903 after rebuilding, no rivets, rebuilt cab
Fig 54 shows No 1249 post-1931/32, rivets, extended smokebox, rebuilt cab

Tenders
Bradley doesn't mention these either.

The figures show three tenders but they all look the same to me. One is empty, the other two well-coaled.
 

It's a bit of a minefield if you're after a specific loco at a specific time, but in general, versions with those variations should cover them all at some time in their lives.

I hope that helps
Peter

I've just spent rather too much money on the wheels for this, more than the 3D prints cost! It won't be a cheap model unless the laser-cutting investigations go particularly well. 

 

The approximate cost for the OO F class printed bits is about £50 from my 3Dhubs supplier (as Shapeways wanted £85 for it!). It's a bit more than I'd hoped but it is a large(ish) tender engine and I'm working on reducing that. It is about in line with models such as 'Lion' and a lot less than some others! The motorisation bits (wheels, gears etc.) are about another £50 but I need to double check that as it doesn't include all the detail bits.

 

As for the F1, I will probably get round to it soon, but first I'm rearranging the F class for N scale (assuming 1:148 is correct). This mostly involves making all the walls thicker so that they remain strong enough when printed and can get past Shapeway's minimum size requirements. 

 

The N gauge F class (without chassis) from Shapeways would be in the region of £35, but I'll ask the 3Dhubs guy and see if I can get that down a bit.

N gauge at a scale of 1:148 should be perfect for most of us (certainly for me and Gareth, if he doesn't mind me speaking on his behalf). The estimated cost is not bad, considering I have a coach in my Shapeways cart for £24 (I'm leaving it there fore a while in the desperate hope of a Shapeways discount day!).

Forgot to add - definitely an F1 for me please, with the improved Wainwright cab and Maunsell extended smokebox (I'm operating in 1930).

Hi, the reason the Terrier chassis works well is the wheelbase, wheel diameter and motor height. It matches the smaller size of these 19th century locos tenders whereas the UM tender drive's wheelbase is too long and won't fit in the smaller tenders and it also suffers from undersize wheels. The UM motor also sits quite high which would mean a seriously high mound of coal to cover it! The UM tender drive does work well though in later locos as tenders grew in size. Regarding cost I've picked up a number of Terriers at around the £40 mark which isn't much more than a UM tender drive There a quite a few out there in poor condition which helps keep the price down. Bottom line is a UM unit will not fit in a tender such as the one we're discussing.

As pick up is not required from the loco it is easier to sort a chassis and being an 4-4-0 building one is simple. You would need to find a couple of suitably sized drivers and a bogie. For a non powered chassis you can make it from plastic and cut 2 slots to take the axles at the appropriate spacing. The trickiest bit is fabricating the coupling rods but basically it is a straight piece with a hole in each end matching the axle spacing.

Building a chassis may sound daunting but using this method means you have a self contained, reliable tender drive and a simple push along loco chassis.

If this becomes available in 'N' I'll post up how I sorted the chassis.

Eek! and hurrah! in equal measure. I look forward to reading the idiot's guide to converting a Terrier chassis and the other one for scratchbuilding a 4-4-0 chassis in plasticard. Believe me, I'll be monitoring the guide for 'idiotness' and if I don't spot enough of it I'll be in touch

As a side note, my ambition one day is to build an LSWR A12, so this guide may be a huge step towards that ambition too (although I understand that the A12 can take a UM motor in its tender so there will be some differences). I'll be taking it very seriously, you can be sure.

The chassis doesn't need to be working. There are plenty of chassis out there that can be put in one of the coaches but an easyish solution is one I've used on a number of smaller tender locos and that is to strip down a Dapol Terrier and use it as a tender drive. It will easily fit inside this tender.

Below is a SER O Class and the cut down chassis that powers it. You remove the body and trim the footplate back as much as possible. All wheels are driven so just unscrew the bolts holding the coupling rods on. You don't need to touch the workings at all. It may look daunting but I saw it as a solution and got the craft knife out. I made it up as I went along and wrote an article for the NGS Journal. I know there are now many Terriers both here and abroad that have sacrificed themselves to tender drives. For the loco wheels have a look on ebay etc for spares or repair locos. Doesn't matter if they don't work, just look for something with suitable size wheels and have a play to see what you can come up with. My O Class has drivers from a knackered Dapol prairie tank. You don't need to be an expert, just know how to wield a craft knife

Hmm... for some reason I don't seem to have received a notification of a reply...

Wouldn't a Union Mills tender drive do the trick just as well (and at a lower cost, with less waste)? That, of course, would raise the problem of how to do the electrical pick-up bit - for me at least - with one side of the loco chassis needing to be isolated from the other...

The loco chassis itself is also a bit of a question for this loco. We've already discusses the wheelbase, and no existing 4-4-0 chassis seems to be accurate enough for it.

No worries sorting a chassis but it would be fantastic if it could be shot down to 'N'

The second part of that sentence is definitely seconded, but the first part most definitely isn't! The rest of us who aren't expert loco chassis scratch-builders and hackers may need to use a more readily-available N gauge chassis

On a side note, Quarreyscapes, I clicked on your model shop link and got the following connection warning from my browser:

The owner of www.coastlinemodels.co.uk has configured their web site improperly. To protect your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this web site.

It's Horeham Road and Waldron (later Horam) on the Cuckoo Line between Polegate and Eridge circa 1895-1900...

There's not much left of the station today. I cycled the entire branch line a few years ago, taking photos as I went:

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/RailwayWalks/Britain/Polegate_Eridge/Polegate_Eridge01.html

Horam station starts from slide 32 onwards.

It looks Greasy to me. It may even be Wet & Rusty...

There is an een finer printed plastic, which can be offered if asked for. I cost a little bit more, but for N gauge price is still reasonable.

If 'reasonable' is the odd pound or two then I'd be happy to pay that for a one-off coach like Saloon No 17. The SECR brake van was somewhat rough, but you can get away with that in an old, careworn brake van. It's not so easy with a coach.

With respect to the LSWR, G Weddell has covered coaches pretty well in his books. Many of his drawings of LSWR stock also appeared in MRC in the 70s. RM has had quite a few LSWR loco drawings over the years. overall the Southern railways are all pretty well covered.

I'm very glad to hear it. I still have hopes of a four-car unit of Emigrant stock. I did consider hacking these out of Farish suburbans, but they'd need quite a lot of work and the bodyshell still wouldn't really be right.

As for saloon No 17 on Shapeways, what kind of quality is 'smooth fine detail plastic' in comparison with a Farish suburban? I'm still very much a beginner when it comes to 3D materials.