NIK

Slightly off topic but does anyone know if using the ESU test rig you can install two decoders at the same time, say to simulate a piggy back situation of setting up one decoder for driving and the other for sound as has recently been seen with I think Lenz or Zimo and TTS.

Rob

Hi,

I don't think one can as all the decoder connectors on my ESU 53900 tester appear to have all their pins that are common connected in parallel to the loads (motor or LEDs or logic level function buffers to LEDs).

I guess a motor only decoder if there is such a thing could be plugged in at the same time as a function only decoder although I'm not sure what would happen to the acknowledge pulses back from the function only decoder.

Not sure about sound only decoders or sound decoders not connected to motors - same acknowledge pulse problem might arise.

If the above situation existed one might have to use decoder locks in order to read and change CVs - so maybe that would solve the acknowledge pulse problem.

Regards

Nick

Bachmann's earlier 4CEP has a 2-wire bar coupling but only needs a single decoder for the whole unit. However, although you can operate the head codes and interior lights independently, the head codes are not directional as on the 4-TC nor can you switch one end off. Also the 4TC has full current pickup on all 4 coaches, unlike the 4CEP where only the motor coach has this.

 

I've also found uncoupling the 4-way connector easier than with the 2-bar coupling which is a tight push-fit affair where it's all too easy to dislodge the close-coupling mechanism.  In my view the 4-way coupler is much superior and I wish my 4CEPs had them too. 

Hi,

I thought the 4-CEP had pickups on every coach so that the 2-wire bar coupling can provide independent control of interior lightingand headcodes.

I've also found the 4-TC 4-way connector much better for coupling and uncoupling although I have bought stock boxes two coaches wide to reduce the amount of handling required and time taken at exhibitions.

How many independent DCC decoder functions does one need to fully represent 4-TC operation?.

Headcode panel white. x2 (when  4-TC is not a rear of train rear Headcode must be switched off, when not at front white headcode must be switched off?)

Headcode panel Red x2 (when  4-TC is not a rear of train rear Headcode must be switched off)

Cab interior light x2

Coach lighting x1.

Discuss.

I keep looking at small OLED graphics displays to see if some might become available that are small enough and cheap enough to display white headcodes and red rectangles on a black background.

Regards

Nick

I think the problem is the confusion (and lack of clear labelling) which separates Next18 and Next18S.   The former has the eight function outputs, the latter has six function outputs and two speaker outputs.    Both of these standards mandate a space for the decoder, the "S" version mandates more space to accommodate the sound decoder.  See the MOROP website for the standards document NEM622 (German and French).  I've not read enough of these to see if the standard requires that a NEXT18 decoder is fully safe if attached to a NEXT18S socket; if it does, that clears up the standard. 

 

 

If there is a speaker fitted, it appears that the Farish 40 is a NEXT18S socket at the wiring level.   If there is sufficient space for the "S" sound decoders, then the label should be NEXT18S.  If insufficient space, then its a "bastard we made up" connection, complying to no standard  (such approach to standards is not unknown in UK model railways). 

 

 

Now, moving to compatibility.  Bachmann's own website describes the class 40 as having a Next18 socket, and says that is suitable for their 36-567 decoder.  So, that's black and white according to the manufacturer: a 36-567 works in the class 40, or if it doesn't Bachmann have no option but to repair/recompense anyone whose stuff goes pop.      It also sort-of implies that the logic level outputs won't be harmed by attempting to drive the loud speaker against each other (because as a consumer I might buy a 36-567 (or any other NEXT18 decoder), try it in a 40, then move it to something else and expect all eight outputs to still work).   The speaker won't make noises on the logic outputs (logic is 5v DC).   I've been pondering the use of the logic levels on the speaker, and am not yet convinced about the sense of connecting the unprotected low current outputs to a speaker, but perhaps something else will come out to explain why its harmless to the decoder.  

Hi,

I didn't know about the Next18S.

Regarding the 36-567 I can see that if both logic level outputs FO5 and FO6 were in the same logic state that little current might flow through the speaker however I've found testing the 36-567 in the ESU decoder tester its quite easy to press the wrong function button on my DCC system and enable a function output I didn't mean to.

The MCU is a PIC18F46K22 with 25ma source and sink from its I/O pins when in Output mode. I don't know what happens if the 25ma is exceeded. Maybe Zimo have put series resistors on FO5 and 6 - there are lots of resistors on the MCU side of the 36-567.

Regards

Nick

Does this mean that anybody buying the new sound ready next18 socket Farish class 40 (with a speaker fitted as default so all that has to happen for sound is to plug in a next18 sound decoder), can't run it under DCC unless they fit an expensive sound decoder they might not want/need/afford.

 

Oh dear is all I can say if that is the case, and wonder what the reaction will be when this becomes common knowledge.

 

Izzy

Hi,

Good point but maybe a piece of sellotape/adhesive Kapton over the loudspeaker contacts on the Class 40 pcb will do the job. Could be the Class 40 PCB has a switch/link to switch out the speaker.

Regards

Nick

Hi,

I've taken the plunge and plugged the 36-567 decoder into the ESU 53900 tester.

After changing the appropriate CV to make the Zimo made decoder change the SUSI outputs to logic level I found I could control F03 and FO4 LEDs on the tester (driven by transistor buffers on the tester).

As expected I couldn't control FO5 and FO6 presumably as they use the speaker pins (I switched the speaker out of circuit and I guess the tester does not have tracks between those pins and the FO5 and FO6 buffers (they must be driven by the FO5 and FO6 pins on the 21MTC connector - not sure about the Plux22 connector).

I also put FO3 and FO4 into servo mode as part of my playing.

I may get some fine solder plus enamelled wire and connect the speaker pins on the Next18 socket to the bases of the FO5 and FO6 buffer transistors (with an on-off switch for when testing sound decoders).

Regards

Nick

Hi,

Some photos of Beggarwood Lane from our societies open day on Saturday 21^st October.

Stuart and Chris standing by the fiddle yard running trains on the mainline.

One of the new Kernow 4-TCs made an appearance coupled to a Heljan Class 33/1 diesel (second track from back. The 4-TC had the latest version of the Bachmann 36-577 DCC decoder with 6 function outputs (from Alton Model Centre).

Some of the routes for sending a train back in to the same fiddle yard siding were missing which caused some problems.

One of the Windows tablets is just visible which shows the state of the points at the front of the layout. The tablets shut down early before the end of the open day so that will have to be looked at.

It may not be obvious from the above shot but I think we may have enough stock to fill the layout.

John S. operating the goods yard from the front of the layout. The ballast is John's own creation from a secret location in the Midlands. Routes were set up for the goods yard (all using single digit numbers to speed things up).

In the foreground are Chris's houses under construction.

Stuart investigating a fault. We had a problem with a connector to a point decoder and a point frog, and we found a few track feeds come unsoldered on the scenic boards.

However we did have a mystery short circuit when running 4-CEPs – including a boat train with 13 coaches which after the short circuit those DCC decoders with advanced consisting wouldn't respond despite the fact that I thought I'd used normal consisting.

The layout ran surprisingly well considering there had been no opportunity to test it before the open day and the layout had been rushed across to the scout hut before the bad weather arrived.

Some of the points that had been ballasted did not throw fully so will need further work.

We have about a page worth of observations written down so far so we will have to fix the problems when the relevant boards are accesible.

Finally the club is still looking for members and Beggarwood Lane could do with more builder/operators to get the layout finished and out on the exhibition circuit.

Regards

Nick (on behalf of the Basingstoke and North Hants Model Railway society)

Evening all, just wondering what is the best way to cut a long rectangular hole in a baseboard to fit a inspection pit. What tool do people use?

Hi,

I haven't tried it but a router pressed against a guide should give a straight cut. I've tried jigsaw but it was less straight. Best finish might be drilling two rows of small holes by hand, chisel between holes and finish with medium files.

Regards

Nick

There are two Next-18 socket specifications, the sound Next-18S and the non-sound Next-18. It would appear that the ESU decoder tester has the Next-18S version of the socket.

 

This all demonstrates what an ill thought out socket format the Next-18 is! You cannot plug a non sound decoder in to a socket with a speaker fitted without risk of damage to the decoder from the speaker connecting two outputs together which may or may not be in the same state. Zimo may have pre-empted the possibility and fitted protection to the AUX5 and AUX6 outputs, but who knows.

 

If the decoder tester has a high enough value resistor in series with the LEDs connected to the logic outputs such that they restrict the current to below 5mA damage should not occur to the decoder, but they will not show the output state. Probably best to measure the LED current before plugging in the decoder. The AUX3 and AUX4 outputs are re-use of the SUSI bus outputs so these pins will always be logic level. They are the equivalent of pins 3 and 4 on both PluX and MTC-21 which should have the indicator LEDs connected with their cathodes to 0V so there is a bit of odd wiring on the decoder tester.

Hi,

I've done a simulation of an idealised 5 volt logic output driving an LED through a 1k resistor supplied with 14V DC and the worst case current was 12ma.

I've looked at the 36-567 under an illuminated magnifier and the MCU is a PIC18F46K22 whose I/O pins are rated 25ma source and sink.

I might try a range of decoders on the ESU tester in the morning although I might wait for some of the new Bachmann 36-557 21MTC 4 function/2 logic function decoders that I've got on order.

Many thanks

Nick

Hi,

I've just bought two Bachmann 36-567 Next 18 DCC decoders for evaluation as it has Zimo features and has four function outputs and four logic level outputs.

I bought an ESU 53900 DCC decoder tester which includes a Next 18 Socket but the online manual says the 21MTC FO3,FO4,FO5,FO6 are at logic level.

The 36-567 also has FO5 and FO6 on the Speaker outputs of the Next18 socket - which shouldn't cause damage as the speaker on board the tester can be switched out of circuit.

My question is - will I cause damage to decoder or tester if I plug the two together (the 36-567 has Logic level outputs on FO3 to FO6 and the tester paperwork appears to imply Next18 socket FO3 to F04 LEDs wired by resistors to decoder positive)?.

Regards

Nick

Hi,

Two Bachmann 36-567 Next18 DCC decoders arrived from Rails of Sheffield.

The decoders are impressively small and consequently the connector is frighteningly small. I'm glad I've ordered lots of mating connectors to practise soldering.

I've got the kit for making single sided PCBs at home but this will be my first time making and soldering to 0.25mm wide pads.

Fortunately the socket suppliers provide a link to the connector datasheet so I can draw the artwork for the PCB design library of my choice if necessary.

I'm going to order some thinner solder (I use 0.7mm for fine through hole PCBs).

I've got an Optivisor with light and a circularly lit magnifier as backup.

I will use my 1mm soldering iron tip and have the solder wick handy.

I've ordered the ESU decoder tester that has a Next18 connector so I should be able to evaluate most or all of the 36-567 decoders functions.

Regards

Nick

Even lower  price on  the   Bachmann Next  18  decoder  from  a retailer on  the Isle of Man  £17.15

Hi,

Is that Trackshack?.

Regards

Nick

I think this is the PluX-12 socket:-

 

http://uk.farnell.com/samtec/clp-106-02-f-d/connector-rcpt-12pos-2row-1-27mm/dp/2779401

 

And this one I think is the Plux-16 (which a 12-pin can plug in to as well):-

 

http://uk.farnell.com/samtec/clp-108-02-l-d/connector-rcpt-16pos-2row-1-27mm/dp/2779403

 

I am sure there must be a cheaper version if you search.

Hi,

Thanks for the info - the 16 pin connector seems very expensive - about the same price as a Raspberry Pi Zero computer.

I may be looking on the Aliexpress website or similar for a cheaper version.

Do you know if anyone in the UK stocks the MX600P12 - DCC Train Automation seem to have sold out and the usual suspects don't seem to list it.

Regards

Nick

It is puzzling as to why Zimo want to promote Next-18 over PluX by selling the Next-18 decoders cheaper than comparable PluX decoders with a similar sized connector like the MX630p16 for example. Perhaps we will see another price drop.

 

A board with a PluX-16 socket might be more useful long term since it can be used with MX600p12 for 4-functions or MX630p16 with 6-functions (+2 logic functions). The Next-18 sits half way between with 4 functions + 2 logic functions.

Hi,

I didn't know about the MX600P12 and its low price.

Does any one know where a UK based amateur can get the mating PCB connectors for the PluX-12?.

Having heard about the MX600P12 I will be thinking if I can squeeze all my lighting, 3rd rail sparks effects and DCC uncoupler requirements down to four ON/OFF function outputs.

When I mentioned Zimo previously I forgot to mention the Bachmann 36-567 Next-18 Loco decoder believed to be made by Zimo: 0.7A Motor, Four functions + 4 Logic functions.

Regards

Nick

It doesn't need new code, scripts or similar for Nik's suggestion. 

 

Create multiple routes, such as "StartofDay1", "StartofDay2", etc..  and have them perform different parts of the switching.  They can be cascaded by having an Internal Turnout which is set as the last operation in the first route, and that Internal Turnout then triggers the second route to run.   If more than one route is needed, then a second Internal Turnout can act as a second trigger.   And so on. 

Hi,

Yes but if there are a large number of routes then won't there need to be four times as many 'internal' routes rather than one script to cover all routes?.

Also the OP didn't seem to be talking about Start of Day but general route setting using one CDFU/four output Hornby point decoders.

Regards

Nick

Hi,

If JMRI does not have this feature built in I think a JMRI script could be written to deal with this problem in software with perhaps no need to do any electrical changes.

I was thinking that for each route the JMRI script would make a list for all the points to be operated. It would then activate a Turnout command to all appropriate turnouts numbered 1,5,9,13,17 etc. then it delay for n seconds, and would do for all applicable points numbered 2,6,10,14,18 etc and on to 4,8,12,16,20 etc.

Perhaps you could ask on the JMRI users group about how to get/create such a script.

Regards

Nick

Hi,

Good news - conrad-electronic.co.uk now appear to have the matching socket for Next 18 DCC decoders.

Its a surface mount socket but the pins stick out horizontally rather than having contacts only on the underside so carefully soldering using DIY surface mount techniques may work.

Description:

Total number of pins 18 Degson CT0519S-10-2x09P Contact spacing: 0.50 mm 1 pc(s)

Anyway they are £1.19 incl vat but the postage is £6.99 for orders under £199.

I've ordered 19 for evaluation.

I like the Zimo DCC decoders including their function output features and would like to use their less expensive >4 function decoders in modified RTR and in kit built multiple units.

I've been thinking about using one of the Chinese small quantity PCB facilities and I've been wondering what design of PCB to send them - maybe a Next 18 to PCB pad design is a good test design.

Regards

Nick

Simple, they are completely differently packaged. http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/details_archive.php?id=463

 

Problem is trying to find a supplier who has one as every description on every web site I have seen and on ebay refer to 4 functions implying they are the old Soundtraxx ones and not the new ESU one.

Hi,

Alton Model Centre had some of the new 36-557 six function DCC decoders a few weeks ago when I got one to fit in my Kernow 4-TC.

The 4-TC seems to work fine with the logic level output from one of the two additional outputs (first four new 36-557 outputs are original Open Collector power outputs, last two are logic level).

Model Railways Direct's website appear to show the new circuit board of the 36-577 decoders but their text when I last looked is for the old 4 function type.

I haven't found a stockist of the new type 36-557 using Google.

Regards

Nick

Can anyone tell me what type of connector this is? I know I've seen them, but can't find any online. It's on a 2 phase 4 wire stepper motor, and ideally I want a PCB connector for it, or better still, a cheap motor driver with the right connector, for use with an Arduino.

Hi,

Any dimensions you can supply would help me and perhaps others to try identify it for you.

Regards

Nick

Hi,

No photos today but the layout is being prepared for our club's open day this Saturday 21st October.

http://www.basingstokemrs.org/open-day.html

As of the Thursday before last all the points bar two in the goods yard were working again after ballasting of the goods yard.

Hopefully adjusting the end stops using the MERG Servo4/Servoset will sort those two points that aren't throwing enough.

Otherwise we might have to resort to looking for ballast glue to remove.

Depending on Kernow deliveries we may have up to three 4-TC units running on Saturday. I've been told a 4-TC and Class 33/1 will fit in the off-scene interregional branch so might do for a Kensington Belle.

Hopefully the mainline operators will have Windows tablets providing JMRI touch screen displays of the state of the points out of sight on the high level tracks at the front of the layout.

Regards

Nick (on behalf of the Basingstoke and North Hants Model Railway Society)

The interior lights are worked by the 5th function which the 36-557 does not have - see my earlier post #794 on this subject.  

 

I believe the new version of the 36-557 does have the necessary additional functions. However, sounds like you have the Mk1 version......

Hi,

My Blue Grey 404 4-TC arrived today and I fitted it with the new Bachmann 36-557 6 function DCC decoder (from Alton Model Centre).

Only needed eight strips of plastic card to get into the brake coach to access the DCC decoder.

The new decoder works all the lights as RFS's post of the 5th September said.

Interior lights are switched by F5 key on the default settings of this decoder.

The new 36-557 decoder has different packaging (plastic) from the previous version (small cardboard box).

Model Railways Direct website seems to have a photo of the new decoder circuit board but their description was for the old decoder (no mention of the extra functions or Railcom).

Regards

Nick

I've coveted one of these for some time, and used to regularly check ebay for a decent used example of the original LT. I discovered a while back that it has been resurrected as a limited edition, supplied with 8 sets of the DCC Concepts rollers as opposed to the original brass ones which could fail over time.

 

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=GMC-LT&style=&strType=&Mcode=Gaugemaster+GMC-LT

 

GMC-LT.jpg

 

The price is a little eye-watering, but it can be bought at a discount if you shop around a little.

I know the DCC Concepts rollers are a far more cost-effective way of owning a rolling road, and they can be positioned pretty much anywhere, but what appeals to me is the "stand-alone" workbench quality of the Gaugemaster unit. I had made plans to build something similar using a ventilated box made from hardwood strips, 400mm of OO gauge track, a Gaugemaster panel mount controller, transformer and volt-meter. Adding up the cost of these items (plus rollers), the GMC-LT's price doesn't look so bad...

 

Not having a "roundie" layout, my usual method of running-in before fitting a decoder was to run the loco/unit in both directions around an oval of setrack loose-laid on a sheet of plasterboard. Effective, but impractical. Hence the appeal of the LT.

 

One quick tech question for those of you that know more about electrics/electronics than I do (that'll be everyone, then)...

Thinking ahead to long-term maintenance and testing, once a loco is chipped, would it do the Gaugemaster unit any harm to occasionally power the rollers from a DCC system? The power would be fed to the guides supporting the rollers using miniature crocodile clips. Obviously, the LT would be unpowered and switched off. Bearing in mind Gaugemaster's excellent warranty service, I wouldn't want to harm the unit in any way and invalidate the warranty.

Hi,

I've got an LT and I've used it with DCC many times. I switch the reverse/off/forward switch to off, move the test/track switch to track and put gorilla tape over the test side of the switch to make it more difficult to accidently connect the DC supply to the DCC.

I'm thinking of putting in a switch between the track feed wires and the track to switch from DC to DCC along with status LEDs for DC and DCC. The switch would switch in the DCC which would be attached with a connector rather than using croc clips which can accidently be left in place.

Regards

Nick

.

Just for fun I decided to try a consist with my shiny, new Z21 and I time 2 locos over the same distance each run and entered the data into the section for each loco then created a consist with 2 locos - so far so good, and basically what is suggested on different posts here.

 

Both locos exhibit different characteristic despite both have Lenz Gold Mini decoders that we reset to default before doing the test to ensure I hadn't ruined anything during the times playing with them, however I find that the whilst the consist runs both locos together it doesn't match the speeds which is what I thought the timing process was meant to do, however one loco runs much faster than the other and if you set them off at the opposite sides of the test track (a circle ) then they will be together within a couple of runs around the loop.

 

I did 5 timings for each loco at ~20, 40, 60, 80 and 126 speed steps and I thought this would be a good distribution.

 

Any suggestions what I am doing wrong?

 

Iain

Hi,

This is just a guess as I don't have a Z21 but is there an option on the Z21 not to use Advanced Consisting?.

I ask because my understanding is that on DCC once advanced consisting is set up the command station only sends on a repetitive basis the Consist Address and the speed for the entire train.

I am assuming the Z21 doesn't change the speed table or Vmin, Vmid and Vmax in all bar one locomotive in a consist.

Regards

Nick

Thanks. I haven't done self-assembly before but I would be happy to give it a go. I would need to be reasonably straightforward. Have you any recommendations?

What I would like to know is how the information gets from the IR detectors back to the computer?

Hi,

If the LocoNet input device is supported by JMRI then plugging the input device into LocoNet (connected to computer via your LocoBuffer USB I guess), you can then set up JMRI Panel Pro to set the used inputs of the LocoNet input devices as sensors.

With your IR detectors connected to your LocoNet input device connected to your Loconet and LocoBuffer start JMRI Panel Pro and

select Edit/Preferences/Connections. Create new connection, Select Digitrax from the list and then select LocoNext LocoBuffer USB from the system connection list.

Then press the Save button in preferences. You may be prompted to restart JMRI. Do this.

You now have each of the IR sensors physically connected to the computer via the hardware above and JMRI.

On restart of JMRI select Tools/Tables/Sensors. You will then see a list on the middle of the screen. There should be a tab in that list saying LocoNet.

Click on that tab and you are now in a position to add LocoNet sensors to JMRI. I cant help with the numbering scheme for LocoNet inputs - I use NCE at present, but the info may be on the internet.

Add sensors by pressing the Add button. If you have more than one sensor to add and they have consecutive numbers then there is an option to do that on the right hand side of the dialog box.

Once you have your sensors added to JMRI save the Table away with File/Store/Store configuration only to file.

You can test the numbering is correct by waving your hand in front of the IR detector and the appropriate box in the Sensor table you've created should change to Active and then back to Inactive when you remove your hand.

If you create a control panel on the screen in JMRI then you would use the references created by JMRI to link to those sensors. So a Loconet sensor number one might be called LS1 by JMRI and that is what you would type or select when adding it to a control panel. The same reference would be used for JMRI Logix.

Regards

Nick

Thanks again experts..I came across the Soundtraxx 829100 that seems to be selling at a great price here:

http://store.sbs4dcc.com/Soundtraxx829100TsunamiSoundCarDigitalSoundDecoder.aspx

 

Seems to have a ton of functions and fairly decent reviews..I'm a hobby electronics enthusiast and fairly comfortable with my basics...the only thing that I'm a little skeptical about is the isolation of the motor..and there doesn't seem to be a way to find out if a particular loco has to undergo this treatment unless you buy one..as in there's no look up table that Bachmann Santa Fe doesn't need it but another model needs it...

Hi,

Apologies if others have said this already but the sound decoder in your link is not for locos - its for going in rolling stock to give the sound effects of rolling stock (and four lighting function outputs).

Most sound decoders are for fitting in locos and most are for specific loco prototypes. Going by your original post a mobile loco sound decoder is the type you require.

Regards

Nick

Hi,

Stuart and John S. have ballasted most of the goods yard:

A lot of the ballasting was done the day before this photo was taken when there were still white marks on some sleepers from the PVA glue.

As our clubs open day is on the 21st October probably next week we'll have to plug a DCC controller in and start checking/making the point blades move fully again.

Rob and John C. have been working on the chalk cutting including dirtying the chalk and adding debris at the bottom of the cutting. Vegetation is to be added on the top later.

Regards

Nick (on behalf of Basingstoke and North Hants Model Railway Society)