Ian Rathbone

9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Ian,

 

lovely work as usual. I remain to be convinced by the accuracy of the livery though.

I don’t know the detail of the Clifton Downs coaches but in the early years of BR all coaches were lined out but, for coaches in plain crimson, the lining ceased in about 1950. I have many photos of lined crimson coaches from the period.

Ian R

On 03/09/2021 at 23:54, Ian Rathbone said:

 

The model has the route disc on the cab side which would put it in the post grouping period, so between 1923 & 1934. I don’t know exactly when the portholes were plated over but Castles were being built with them in 1923. Let’s say it’s about 1925 but the green paint looks very light to me - not ‘bronze’ enough. It was quite a dark green back then. The buffer beams should be ‘China Red’ not the bright red it appears to be, or is that a result of the bright lighting Tony uses?

 

For those who may be interested there is a full description of GWR liveries on my website. Meanwhile here is a really ugly outside frame loco - a scratch-built Kruger in 7mm.

 

 

Ian R

I have started at 1923 because from that date liveries, and loco designs, were highly standardised and well documented, just not rigorously described, as I have tried to do. The problem with 19th and early 20th century liveries is the impossibility of using photos to trace the lining as the quality is poor and orange, like red, is rendered as black. Liveries were in a state of flux around 1903 to 1906, and then again during and after WW1. So, to do a rigorous analysis of the years before 1923 would take up more time than I have available.

I presume the red frame question was based on this photograph -

This was a commission to repaint the frames of a ‘Masterpiece Models’ early small Prairie, plus additional lining on the body.

The commission came from a well respected engineer in the preservation business. I have now done three of these, nearly half the production run.
 

The evidence is a works grey photo in Russell’s Locos of the GWR. It shows the lining on the cylinders on a background that is not black. Further examination shows lining around the frame apertures, again on a non-black background. One can only assume that the cylinders and frames were Indian Red. The caveat is whether works grey photos were followed literally in the painting of locos in service. In my opinion the few that were painted prior to 1906 probably had red frames, but not for long.

Ian R

Sorry, I lied in my last post. I’ve just found a photo of another 4mm A3 - on my own website. This one was built by Mike Edge, who’s built so many engines for me in the past. I don’t know why it hasn’t got a works plate, possibly because cutting out a King’s Cross pair was too much of a hassle. The other obvious error, for those of you who have being paying attention, is that the splasher tops should be blue. It was along time ago when I painted it.

It would look so much better with a bit of weathering.

Ian R

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Of possible interest.............

 

On Sunday, with friends over to run LB, the discussion of the too-red lining on Hornby's latest BR Thompson Pacifics came to the fore. I agree, it is too-red.

 

However, under certain lighting conditions on the real thing....................................

 

 

 

 

With later, evening light, it can appear 'warmer'.

 

Granted, there are the vagaries of emulsions (these are scanned from the original transparencies) and scanning, but.........................

 

If nothing else, they show that the cab roofs were all-over black and (at least in the case of 60052; the last-surviving A3 in BR service) that valances could be part-black, not all-along green. They also show that the correct 'orange-green-black-green-orange' division of the lining is extremely difficult to distinguish. 

 

Who'd be a professional model painter? 

 

Please observe copyright restrictions on these images. 

 

 

Who’d be a painter indeed. Never use a photo to match a colour, only to assess the distribution of colour. It appears to me that the valances started out as green but a narrow valance with pipes attached will never be cleaned properly so will appear to be blackish. At the front end where it deepens it is definitely green. The valances were originally lined black and orange but at some point in the 50s, on the Eastern Region, the black edge was omitted.

More interesting to me, as a painter, is the colour of the splasher tops. On a Doncaster engine they were green, as seen on Humorist, but it very difficult to tell from most photos what the colour was. 
 

Ian R

15 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

I thought the reclassifications were from 1951?

Sorry, I got the date wrong, yes it was 1951. 1953 was the year that the Southern Region started using the BR power class system.

Ian R

6 hours ago, gr.king said:

I believe there are two possible extremes within the groups of those model railway enthusiasts who do actually build individual models, or who at least sincerely intend to build them. At one extreme there are those who build, with the minimum of research, or just using the instructions in a kit, and who may get a lot of things made but not necessarily with totally accurate features. At the other extreme are those who research every infinitessimal detail, even if that means getting little or nothing built / finished. At least the much greater ready availability of information now, compared to forty years ago (as mentioned above) makes it possible for those somewhere in-between to get a better result.

You’ve missed out the third wing - those who have vast knowledge, have no intention (or ability) to build anything but take pleasure in criticising other people’s work - the rivet counter. Although unloved and unwanted they are as much part of the hobby as the rest. 
 

As a painter I find it difficult to see beyond the paintwork just as, say, a professional signaller would immediately note the signal errors on a layout. I also cringe at white window frames on period layouts. To build any type of layout accurately would take more knowledge and skill than 99% of us have, so we have to tolerate the odd error and look at the broader picture, except perhaps banjo domes. (Hint, take photos from rail level so the type of dome is obscured).

Ian R
 

On 08/07/2021 at 22:31, Andy Kirkham said:

I make no claim to special expertise, but based on a lifetime of looking at railway photographs,  I'd be inclined to say that no Class 8 passenger loco ever appeared in BR lined black, which was after all intended for mixed traffic locos.

 

And also, Wrenn were not averse to releasing locos in manifestly fictional liveries - e.g a "GWR" Standard 2-6-4T , and a rebuilt Westcountry in Southern Malachite Green

It is true that no class 8 loco was painted in BR lined black - they only became class 8 in 1953, before that they were class 7. 
One for the pedants.

Ian R

I agree that Humbrol 69 is totally useless these days, in fact I opened a new can of 9 this morning and that was oily and too thin. Before the paint formula changed it was always about 50:50. I put some of each paint on a palette and let the oils evaporate off for a bit then mix and put in the pen with a cocktail stick.

I bought some Railmatch yellow because of Humbrol problems but found that was as bad. I think it’s the safety elves restricting the types of pigment that can be used in ‘hobby paints’. I will stick with Precision in future.

Ian R

Er, 46143 and 46168, and possibly others were painted in lined black in 1948/9. I have photos. Your splasher lining is incorrect, the cream/grey line did not continue along the bottom of the splasher face except on the Western and Southern Regions.
 

Ian R

40 minutes ago, wagonman said:

One of the George England pair I presume.

 

Yes, Tudor has built ‘Neath’ as well. Meanwhile here’s another one, don’t ask me what it is. Also built by Tudor.

Ian R

The ‘gold’ lining on GW coaches is not gold but yellow ochre, the same colour as LNW coach lining. Precision paints do ‘Ochre Lining’ paint. You can make this by mixing Humbrol Tan (9) with Yellow (69). The bolections, reveals and drop lights were originally mahogany but due to weathering and wear they were eventually painted in a matching colour - I use Indian Red rather than Venetian Red. PP do these as SECR Frame Indian Red and SR Venetian Red. 
 

Ian R

Here’s one I painted for Tudor Watkins, scratch built by him.

Ian R

27 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

A bit more progress on my S&D coaches:

 

I've got two more of these 6-wheelers to build, plus four bogie coaches, but I thought I'd bog down unless I got the first pair to a reasonably finished condition. I[ve also run out of wheels for the time being, so it was as good a time as ever to take a pause on the building. Over the weekend, then, they were primed and painted, and tonight I began lining them. I should probably line around the ventilators but I'll make a decision on that later.

 

Al

Too late for these but in future leave the vents off until lining is done. This will give you room to get the lining on the beading around the vent. If the vent fins themselves are lined it is easier to get the vents horizontal after lining. I’ve lined so many coaches where some of the vents are on the squint.

Ian R

38 minutes ago, mattingleycustom said:

... and on Bulleid air-smoothed pacifics only, there was no green line on the two casing stripes, it was simply orange/black/orange

 

Glenn

True, except I’ve seen a preserved one with gaps, (don’t get me going on preserved livery errors). The actual dims are 1/4” orange, 2” black, 1/4” orange, so 2.5” overall.

Ian R

On 27/06/2021 at 12:17, t-b-g said:

 

That bottom photo illustrates very well something that I have spotted a few times on photos but I have so far had little success convincing anybody that I am not making it up.

 

Looking at the lining on the tender, it looks as if the centres of radius of the curves on the two orange lines are not in the same place, so the vertical lining is narrower than the horizontal ones. I have been told that it is an optical illusion caused by the angle of the photos but to my eyes, the curved lines are simple not parallel as they go from horizontal to vertical.

 

I was once told that somebody who worked in a railway paintshop had told the tale that this was done as the proportions of the long horizontal and shorter vertical lines needed their widths adjusting to make them look right. I don't suggest that all locos were like it as it would be down to the individual putting the lining on but I have seen enough examples to convince me that it is not my imagination.

 

In the photo, the horizontal line at the far end, near the loco, is wider than the vertical line at the end nearest the camera. So I don't think it is my eyes playing tricks.

 

Has anybody else ever thought about this or have any views on it?

It is simple maths - trigonometry to be exact. Any pair of parallel lines (at right angles to the viewer) when viewed at an angle will appear to be closer together. The formula is D = W sin a, where D is the apparent width, W is the actual width and a is the viewing angle. So a pair of lines 2” apart will appear to be 1” apart when viewed at 30 deg. (Sine 30deg = 0.5). It is not perspective, that only applies to lines moving away from the viewer. Hope this clears all this nonsense up.

BR lining is 2.25” wide, full stop. 1/8” orange, 1/2” green, 1” black, 1/2” green, 1/8” orange. The only time this varied was on boiler bands that were not 2.25” wide (except Western Region).

Ian R

Here’s a model of the CB&SCR 4-6-0T in 4mm, builder not known. In later years they were just plain black.

Ian R