ForestPines

Firstly I thought the layout was not at a show but at the preserved railway, run by the volunteers 

This could be due to my posts not being completely clear - I've been talking about two layouts; one a small N gauge one based on Arley in the present day, the other a larger N gauge one based on Bewdley, largely in the present day.  I saw the former on display at Arley at this year's autumn gala, and the latter at a show a couple of years ago.  Both were built as double-track ovals, although with the Arley one the scene was limited enough that the loop points would have been offscene in both directions.  With the Bewdley one, the north end was reasonably accurate (albeit with trains heading off down the Tenbury siding) but the south end featured a double track tunnel mouth as the scene exit.

Incidentally, those signs (with some subsequent modifications) remained in use until c1965 when they were replaced by the current "continental" style ones. No doubt the old-style signs will reappear after Brexit.

As the current style of signage (on normal roads) has nothing to do with the EU - being designed following the 1964 Warboys Committee report - one would both hope and assume not. Incidentally, the current treaty on international standardisation of road signs, the Vienna Convention, both post-dates the introduction of our modern signage (it was signed in 1968) and also has nothing to do with the EU: both Russia and India have ratified the treaty, for example.

It depends on who the layout is aimed at plus operators available, if the timetable was adhered to how many trains/movements per day, not many I would guess. If you are looking at the casual visitor and or children then trains moving is what they want to see,

 

They are stuck between a rock and hard place especially if operators are scarce, or not model railway enthusiasts .

I would generally have assumed that the operators of a model railway at a show would be enthusiasts!

It's fair to say that at the real Bewdley there are often periods with nothing moving. On the current timetables there is a 45 minute frequency between paths, with most up trains timetabled for a circa 10 minute wait at Bewdley, so you generally get 30-minute periods with nothing happening. I'm not suggesting operators at a show replicate that, though!

I was on the railway yesterday. Totting up how many trains passed through Bewdley: there were 5 sets in operation, three of which did two round trips and two of which did two full line round trips and two to AY and back; that's 28 trains through the station. Then you have three light engines and an ECS DMU at the start and end of the day: that takes you up to 36 in total.

The model of Bewdley is almost very good. All credit to the people who built this layout; it is unmistakably a model of Bewdley and captures the features well. I have seen it a couple of times and it is interesting to see with plenty of movement but its a shame that the station appears to be something of a mix between preserved and pre-preservation eras. This make it neither fish nor fowl for me. To be fair it was probably made this way to add interest that you couldn't have if it was just a heritage railway.

Speaking as someone interested in operations, I found it a shame that they had turned it into a double track roundy-roundy, because when I saw it (at an exhibition near Weston-Super-Mare a couple of years back) they seemed to be just letting trains circle, rather than operating it in a realistic way. Actually replicating real operations would have been much more interesting.

Apart from the southern end, it seemed to have a good deal of fidelity, and certainly captured the feel of the place rather well, although I know what you mean about being neither fish nor fowl. It strikes me that the pre-preservation layout at Bewdley North would be rather tricky to build with off-the-shelf track.

As mentioned - the traffic on the SVR can be very diverse. I visit regularly, usually on a midweek operating day, during the school holidays. There is so much variation to see. In fact I was last there yesterday. During my visit there were three passenger services shuffling up and down the line (1501 + LMS stock, 7714 + Mark 1's, Sir Keith Park + Mark 1's). In addition the Ivatt 4 was on a Footplate Experience with the LNER Teak stock. At Highley station there was a Network Rail "Rail Grinder" on test.

Other special workings I have observed during my midweek visits are:

 

1450 + Auto coach on Footplate Experience.

45110 + observation saloon on a charter working.

7802 + on dining train.

A4 Union of South Africa leaving with support coach for main line work.

 

Various preserved diesels on empty stock workings or hauling wagons on engineering duties.

 

In addition:

The line provides storage for the Belmond British Pullman - which provides a very different working.

 

Run the line as a gala - you can mix all kinds of freight with local and full line workings including top and tailing and double heading.

Santa Specials also run top and tailed, as do the Halloween specials.

 

Not very diverse then!!!!!

An SVR volunteer writes: the Halloween ghost trains are top & tailed, but the Santa Specials aren't - it would just need too many locos. The only exception is that on Santa timetables in recent years there has been a top and tailed ECS working which is done that way to save a path getting all the necessary engines off Bridgnorth shed; its Up working crosses the first two Down service trains.

Also someone upthread mentioned FE services being put into Highley yard: that's not normally done any more, because FEs usually have passengers on too nowadays (the guests of the "experiencers")

At the recent SVR gala in September, Arley station did have an N model based on Arley on display; it was a post-preservation model and the owner had gone to some extent to populate it with the right locos and stock. Like the exhibition-circuit model of Bewdley which has been mentioned it was built as a double-track oval, but because only the station area was modelled it didn't have as many compromises on accuracy as the Bewdley model does.

There were indeed daytime and evening goods trips on both Friday and Saturday; the daytime trip had to be a rather short rake in order to fit into the back siding at Arley.

I recall in about '84 there was an article in Railway Modeller on how to model a realistic contemporary building, complete with graffiti and decay; the prototype chosen was Redland, on the Severn Beach line.

A few years later the indie label Sarah Records produced a run of singles whose sleeves were illustrated with successive pictures of the stations on the Severn Beach line. I think they may have included a free poster of Temple Meads at one point too.

In case 1 here, if for example a train has left A for B, and shunting needs to be done at A, when would the token be replaced in the machine at B?

Would it be after B's 2-1 is answered by 3-3, or would the token be kept by the signalman at B and only replaced after he then gets 2-1 (Train out of section or Obstruction Removed) from A?

Ray H is right here - the Signalman (at B in this case) must always replace the token in the instrument before sending Train Out Of Section.

Could I summarise my understanding

 

This is based on the situation where the outer home is beyond the starter , i.e. the home is futher back on the single line

 

 

1. you can shunt past the starter, without it being pulled off and no token is needed

2. this can be done if a train has departed travelling away from you

3. if your shunt takes you to the rear of the OH , 3-3 is exchanged

4. if 2-1 is sent by the remote box, the box answers directly with 3-3 rathe then acknowledging the 2-1 , assuming the shunt is to the rear of the OH

 

so on a model , it would be acceptable to shunt past the AS ,but not past the OH ( then a 3-3 is needed ) with the AS at danger ( where the AS is the signal the shunting train hits first !)

I think you may have a couple of things conflated here. I'll try to summarise:

You are shunting into section if you pass *either* the section signal *or* the outermost Home for approaching trains.

If the outermost Home is in advance of the Section Signal then there may well be a local instruction prohibiting shunting into section.

If there are no local instructions otherwise, there are three ways of shunting into section.

1) By shunting behind a departing train. In this instance no bells are exchanged unless the other Signalman knocks out whilst the Section is obstructed, in which case the 2-1 is answered by 3-3 which the other Signalman acknowledges.

2) By blocking back.

3) By releasing a token.

In cases 1 and 2, if the shunt has to pass the Section Signal and that signal is interlinked with the token instruments, then self-evidently the shunt must be authorised to pass that signal at Danger.

so what you are saying is that ETB regulations allowed a shunt into the next section to ignore the starter/section signal and pass it at danger ?

I can only speak of the current SVR ETT regs here. It is not explicitly addressed, but it is implied - the regs permit shunting into section in contexts where no token is released, the Section Signals are interlinked with the instruments, therefore a shunt into the section which requires a loco to pass a section signal must require the loco to be authorised to pass that signal at danger.

would therefore, in the case where the advanced starter is inside the outer home, also be that case, i.e. the shunt outside the starter would be authorised by hand , and the starter ignored, i.e. to a platform observer , a train went through a signal at danger !.

 

OH.jpg

 

That is a bit of an impractical layout - why would you put the Advanced Starting Signal there without giving enough room to shunt inside it?

i.e. if the train needed to shunt into section A, then infact no bell signals would be sent and all that would happen is the driver would be authorised to shunt past the AS at danger ?, its only if the shunt was to pass the OH, then 3-3 would be sent ?. I find it hard to believe a driver would pass an AS without a token ?

 

No, you have misunderstood there - any time a shunt passes the Advanced Starting Signal it is going into the section. The options available are:

* if there is a train in section A heading away from the signalbox, the shunt can be authorised to pass the signal and no bell codes can be sent

* if the Section is not occupied (or is only occupied by a blocking back move at the other end of the section) and no approaching train has been accepted the Signalman can block back and authorise the driver to pass the signal

* if the Section is not occupied and no approaching train has been accepted the Signalman can request a token be released for shunting and then clear the signal. The token is not given to the train crew.

OK, so where he just blocked back, he couldnt pull off the platform starter ?, and also why would you release a token to clear the platform starter since its not the section signal ? , isnt it the case that the token release is electrically locked to the AS ?

Something might have been unclear in my previous post; I was talking about a location which has an Advanced Starting Signal on the Down but only a Starting Signal on the Up. So in the latter case it is correct that you cannot pull off the Starting Signal when blocking back, as it is the Section Signal and therefore interlinked with the token instruments.

Thanks stationmaster, so typically the shunt could , pass intermediate starters that are " on" and even the outermost starter , the advance starter could be passed at danger ? Without a token release.

 

So why was token request and token returned bell codes introduced ?

 

And what' happens if the shunt fouled the clearing point , yet I understand there is no blocking back inside the home bell for ETB.

 

So is it the intermediate starters , say like a platform starter would be pulled off , but the 3-3 is still given , and the train would pass the home ( in reverse direction ) but not the outer starter ?

 

What would happen if the home was outside the outermost starter ? ( which is the case in my case ) and the shunt needed to pass that starter but not the outer home

 

Would drivers pass starters at danger in a shunt move , I find that problematic

 

My understanding was that advanced starters were added to diagrams to specifically remove the need to release a token to shunt ahead , i.e. Shunting could now go as far as the advanced starter without token release. Wasn't this the reason they existed

At Arley on the SVR these types of move are done regularly under rules derived from the old WR book. At the North end of the station the Down section signal is an Advanced Starting Signal, in advance (with respect to Down trains) of the Up Home signal, and most shunts at that end of the station do go outside the Up Home. Therefore the procedure (for, say, shunting from a platform road to the yard) is for the Signalman to get permission from the next box either by blocking back or releasing a token, then clearing the platform starter. The benefit of blocking back is that, as The Stationmaster said, the next box along the line could also be blocking back at the same time.

At the South end of the station there is no Advanced Starting Signal; the Starting Signal on the platform is the Section Signal. Shunting at this end is most often done when running round, when the section is occupied by a train travelling away. In this situation the shunt move can shunt behind the departing train, and is authorised to pass the Section Signal with a yellow flag. If the loco shunting is still outside the Down Home when the Signalman at the next box knocks out, then the Signalman must respond with 3-3 instead of acknowledging the 2-1.

There is no equivalent to blocking back inside the Home; when shunting you can occupy the line between the Home home and the Clearing Point freely as long as no train has been accepted or is in section (unless it has come to a stand at the Home or was accepted under Reg 5 of course. But in the context of Arley, Reg 5 can only be used in situations where its use is mandatory, in any case).

Here we are: the area around Horfield and Filton, August Bank Holiday weekend 2017.

Looking north from the site of Horfield station.

Looking south from the same point, with the remains of the Down Main platform visible.

Looking south from the footbridge just south of Filton Abbey Wood.

At Filton Abbey Wood station, the cutting sides are being cut back in order to add a new platform for trains towards the Severn Tunnel.

Looking south from Filton Abbey Wood station: I suspect that footbridge is going to have to come down in order to add in the new platform line.

It's been gone a few weeks now. The replacement isn't due to be finished for about 15 months, going by the closure notices for the footpaths which run underneath it.

I took some photos of the current state of rebuilding between Horfield and Filton Abbey Wood over the weekend; I must remember to post them in this thread at some point.

A rail-converted Land Rover made a trip on the Severn Valley a couple of weeks back. It had to run Bridgnorth-Kidderminster and return, rather than vice versa, so it could be turned on Kidderminster turntable.

You can find permitted routes for a journey in the Routeing Guide. It's not straightforward. The process involves finding valid 'routeing points' (major stations or station groups) for each end of the journey in the 'pink pages', then looking up valid routes in the 'yellow pages' based on the routeing points. A full explanation is here: http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide .

 

For Bristol to Reading, both ends are already routing points. The valid routes are 'LA' and 'WR'. Looking at the map of each route, 'LA' goes via Westbury, so this would be a valid route.

 

There may also be easements to allow or disallow a particular route. For instance, 'doubling back' (travelling over the same stretch of line twice in a journey) is sometimes permitted from stations with a limited service if the overall journey is quicker. I can't see any easements between Bristol and Reading.

There is one easement I am aware of that might be relevant: doubling back via Temple Meads is permitted for journeys to or from Stapleton Road or Lawrence Hill. So if you had a Reading to Stapleton Road ticket, Reading-Bristol Parkway-Temple Meads-Stapleton Road is a valid route (and one I have done, as it is sometimes the fastest route for that journey).

What about a pier station? There might be traffic in bunker coal, but not much else. New Holland Pier, on the Humber, is one example.

One interesting example of separate facilities was North Queensferry in Fife. It was originally served by a branch line from Dunfermline, terminating at a station on a pier jutting out into the Forth. When the Forth Bridge was built the branch station lost its passenger service - but the replacement station on the Forth Bridge line (which joined the North Queensferry branch at Inverkeithing) was not given any goods facilities. The original station on the railway pier remained as North Queensferry's goods station until closure in the 1950s.

Highway authorities and local governments have prevented at least partial stretches of some preservation schemes because they conflicted with road schemes - Ashburton, Welshpool, Ulverston to Haverthwaite; Bridgnorth itself was threatened by a bypass in the early days of the SVR.

The threat at Bridgnorth was not that the trackbed was needed for the bypass, but that the railway may have been liable for the cost of bridging the bypass. In the event this was not the case, and the bypass was built.

AFAIK those who objected to the WHR on the grounds that they thought they owned the trackbed on which their sheep had grazed undisturbed for so long were fairly quickly appraised of whose land it was, and certainly of whose it wasn't, like it or lump it; I imagine the same applies to the L & B scheme. There are issues when they have built structures on the trackbeds, though.

The difference with the L&B is that the majority of the trackbed was sold off to adjoining landowners many many years ago, following the closure of the line. This was not the case with the Welsh Highland.

Habrough Junction to Ulceby and also Marsh Junction into Immingham have to be up there too?

Doesn't Habrough Jn to Ulceby still have a passenger service every couple of hours?

Marsh Jn to Immingham is quiet, though!

When I was a teenager I covered large numbers of OS maps with implausible fictional railways, across the Lincolnshire Wolds, up the centre of the Pennines.

I haven't changed much: my current half-formed modelling plans are based around the thought of a fictional narrow gauge line to serve the manganese ore mines that briefly existed in the Rhinog hills east of Harlech.

I understand it was the poor state of one tunnel which caused the long closure of Bridge Valley Road a few years back.

The name of the road that runs alongside the river avon from Bristol to Avonmouth is called the Portway, hence the name 'Portway Parkway'

And further up the gorge the road is built on a disused railway trackbed.

Demolition of the main lines viaduct at Stapleton Road started yesterday, I'm told, so that it can be replaced by a modern concrete structure.

Most of the time it's 6Music, on an evening when I hear Gid's 'Midpoint of the programme' music I know it's about time to knock off...

Have you ever written in with an update of what's on your work bench? It's probably just the sort of thing he'd read out to the listeners.