Art Dent

Duplicate Post - deleted.

2 hours ago, jonny777 said:

The question of how it is listed, with the model number in full, may simply be because that way anyone doing a web search will find that particular model. I must admit, I would have struggled to understand what the 'analogue' description meant, but that might just be my lack of lateral thinking. Maybe 'DC ready, sound chip removed' (or something similar) would have been more appropriate? 

 

However, my question to anyone who might want that particular Hornby model would be 'why didn't you purchase one when they were introduced, and all the retailers stocked them'? The OP asked the question about what they would receive for their £115, and back came the answer 'it is the original, but with the sound chip removed', which is very honest. If the OP seriously wanted the TTS version, surely the followup question would be, "how much would it now cost me if the original TTS chip was re-fitted?" Of course it might be that that particular chip may have been sold separately, and this would not be possible, but at least they could give that reply. 

 

The other point raised by comments on this thread (and which would open up the biggest can of worms ever, so is why I am not going to pontificate on the subject) and a more general point entirely; is how many times are retailers allowed to open boxed items and give locos a test run to potential customers before the item can be termed 'used' and not 'mint condition' and should be sold at reduced prices?

 

Hi Jonny,

The bit in bold is incorrect, that isn't what they said.  If they had said that, I would know exactly where I stand and, although I would take issue with labelling the model as 'Hornby R3460TTS 4F 44198 BR Black Late Crest' and saying that the sound decoder would be removed for analogue running (hence NOT a TTS model), I would konw what I was getting.

I could choose to buy (or not) safe in the knowledge of what to expect.

What they DID say in response to my question was this "The Model is R3460TTS as described on the Box."  Nowhere that I can see does the webpage listing for this model say that the £115 Analogue price is with the TTS sound decoder removed.

Anyway, regardless of this I have chosen not to buy from Olivia's Trains and I'll leave other folk to chat to them if they are interested in any of the models they sell.

By the way, I don't understand why people are criticizing me for emailing the shop to clarify something before making a 3 mile journey (by car) across the city.  An email takes a minute or less to do and can easily be combined with activities such as searching for a specific model using the likes of Google.  At a minimum it would have taken 25-30 minutes to get to the shop (and the same to return). Getting public transport would have involved two buses either way and waiting in the cold/wind at both bus stops.  Then there is the time spent in the shop itself.  I may (possibly) have found out that the loco was being sold without sound at the £115 Analogue price-point or I may simply have purchased the loco, got home and then discovered the issue.

Of course, you may disagree with the above and that's your choice.  I often drop into Rails, Marcway and Sheffield Transport Models as well as WD Models in Chesterfield - but very rarely make a special trip just for a nosey round - especially when a lot of research can be done from the laptop.

Art

Yeah Royal Oak, it is something I'll have to live with I guess!

Sleeping tablets help though.

Art 

You need to put *sarcastic* tags around your post then!

I took your post at face value and wondered why the heck you'd taken that interpretation from my post.

Art

1 minute ago, royaloak said:

Do you think they would be impressed if people wanted the model removed from the box to inspect?

How would inspecting the loco tell you if the chip had been removed, are you going to ask them to remove the body?

You could always ask them to pop it on the test track as you'd like to hear the sounds.  It would probably be at this point where they told you that your TTS model didn't acually have sound and that you'd need to fork out another £141 (more than doubling the cost) to have their sound-fitted version.

What I absolutely don't get is that I asked, specifically, what you would get if you ordered the £115 analogue version to be told (and this is copied verbatim from their email reply) "The Model is R3460TTS as described on the Box."

Maybe ask Sheffield Trading Standards to look into this?  To my mind this is misrepresentation.

Art

7 minutes ago, Winter123 said:

If you only live 3 miles away, why didn't you go in and inspect the actual model itself?

Because in my naivety, I assumed that a simple email would answer my questions rather than make a (probably in this case) fruitless 6-mile round trip.

I can see that I'd arrive, buy the £115 TTS loco, get home, unbox it, find that not only did it not have sound but it didn't have a decoder either, then have to return to get it sorted out.  So make that 12 miles in total and a complete waste of several hours.

My game of email 'ping-pong' means I don't have to waste the time or effort purchasing from Olivia's nor add to any CO2 emissions by such an exercise.

Art

2 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Using your own logic Olivias should be charging £75 because they have removed £40 worth of sound chip from a £115 model, but are still advertising it as TTS fitted which it isnt.

 

How can they advertise it as new when they have opened the box and taken the body off to remove the chip?

 

If I bought a loco advertised with TTS, the advert didnt mention that it had been messed with and it turned up without the TTS chip I wouldnt be very impressed.

Bit in blue:

Agreed.  Even ebay have a category of 'New -Other'.

Bit in red:

This is precisely my point and something that Neil (at Olivia's Trains) and some other folks on here don't seem to appreciate.

Art

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Quite so, another reason to avoid them, especially as a basic 8 pin Lok Pilot isn't that expensive = £20-22.

They are probably putting in Hornby R8249 chips.

 

Olivia's have had a lot of negative comments on RMWeb due to their, at times, somewhat offhand attitude to prospective customers.

 

You could get one of these and have it weathered (say Grimy times or TMC)

https://www.bourtonmodelrailway.co.uk/Hornby-r3460tts-br-060-fowler-4f-class-44198-late-br-with-tts-sound.ir

 

https://lordandbutler.com/Hornby-r3460tts--fowler-4f-0-6-0-44198-br-late-crest-tts-sound-fitted-792-p.asp

 

 

Thank you.  I have had some locos weathered by Steve at Grimy Times - I was very impressed with his results and at a reasonable price too.

I've heard that the Folwler 4F TTS doesn't actually sound too bad.

In reply to Ian H, the folks at the Emporium (and the main shop a few doors down) are very helpul and I can't fault Rails' customer service.

My last thought on this is why a retailer would respond to a request for further information/clarification about an item of stock in such a way?

A similar enquiry to a different retailer (about a factory-weathered loco where one of the options was 'no weathering') elicited a pleasant and helpful response.  This company may well end up getting my Fowler 4F order too!

Art

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

If that's what is wanted, why go to Olivia's in the first place? That's what is puzzling me.

 

Olivia's quite clearly state Analog, DCC fitted with their choice of decoder or Sound fitted with ESU V4.

They probably remove any TTS decoders when they buy Hornby stock (and no doubt they are sold on somewhere).

That is what they have set up their business model as. They are not in the market or trying to compete with retailers selling Hornby TTS fitted locos.

 

Their attitude to anyone asking for anything other than their standard options, however seems to be bordering on plain rude, where a simple "sorry we can't do that" would suffice.

Hi Keith,

How do you know what decoder would be supplied - as far as I can tell, there is no information about exactly what 'Standard' means.

Why purchse from them - to support a local model shop!

Art

Dungrange

That's also spot-on.

I have no doubt that the ESU V4 sound-equipped loco would sound great.  My issue was that I found their website confusing and emailed a specific query.

The reply I got back wasn't helpful (in fact by saying that "The Model is R3460TTS as described on the Box" in their reply suggests that a TTS decoder-equipped loco would be supplied.

I then sent a second email to clarify this point.  Actually, these are the two questions I asked on 5th ...

• Are you saying that if I purchased this loco for £115 it would be with the TTS sound decoder removed?

• Are you saying that if I spent £143 I would get a 'standard decoder' (i.e. a non-sound decoder) or by 'standard decoder' do you mean it would have Hornby's standard TTS decoder for this model in it.?

Can you specifically answer the two questions above?

Thus far, neither of these two questions have been answered - politely or otherwise.  Olivia's Trains seem to have simply taken their bat home.

As I said earlier, the point is now moot as I will not be purchasing from them given this level of customer service.  A bit of a shame really as they are one of several local model railway shops that I have purchased from in the past (Rails, Marcway, Sheffield Transport Models and M.G.Sharp's being the others - if they ever open their doors to trade).

I'm glad I emailed them first before driving 3 miles to the shop.

Art

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

Well that looks to me like a straightforward answer to your specific question, what is not clear about it?

Rgds

Well,

If someone offered the following for sale (ignoring price for the moment) "Hornby R3460TTS 4F 44198 BR Black Late Crest" - for example on eBay - what would you expect to get?

If their website said "Hornby R3460TTS 4F 44198 BR Black Late Crest"

• With sound chip removed - £115
• With standard (non-sound) decoder - £143
• With ESU V4 sound decoder - £256

 . . . everything would be clear and I wouldn't have an issue.

In their email reply to this specifc question "Could you clarify what I would receive if I ordered R3460TTS in terms of whether a sound-sitted decoder would be supplied?" they said "The Model is R3460TTS as described on the Box".  So that means it sould come with a sound chip and speaker - yes?

Otherwise to describe it as a TTS model when it doesn't come with sound (because the sound decoder has been removed) is misleading advertising surely - particularly as I can see nowhere on that page that the £155 Analogue option means that the TTS Sound decoder has been removed?

Another part of their reply said "We give customers the option to purchase it with the Sound removed."  If you didn't already know that TTS decoders didn't offer analogue running, how would you know that the £155 Analogue option meant that the sound decoder had been removed?

Alex gets it spot-on with this post https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/149757-do-olivias-trains-actually-want-to-sell-trains/&do=findComment&comment=3757672

My follow up email - which has been ignored - asked for the following clarification.

"Does standard decoder mean standard (i.e. non-sound) decoder of does it mean the standard decoder as fitted by the manufacturer (i.e. a TTS decoder)?"

However, the point is now moot.  Given the response ffrom the retailer this far, I won't be purchasing from them and I also wouldn't lament them going under.

Woeful customer service.

You are welcome to disagree of course.

Art

31 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

Sorry if I am not understanding this thread, but are you saying that if you purchase nothing from them they will automatically go bankrupt, and cease trading? 

 

 

 

No,  what I am saying is that I am in the market to purchase a sound-fitted Fowler 4F.

Olivia's seem to have the Hornby TTS version in stock.

I was puzzled by their webpage:

Link: https://www.oliviastrains.com/trains/mt/Hornby-steam/Hornby-steam-4f-class/Hornby-r3460tts-4f-44198-br-black-late-crest/

 . . . so made an enquiry by email.

Their reply (from a chap called Neil) (1) didn't answer my specific question and (2) was rather rude (I can post an excerpt below if required).

I sent a further email shortly after receiving their initial reply - seeking further clarification - which was then ignored.

This puzzles me as it is a genuine enquiry.  Somebody, somewhere, will get my order but I'm not going to order a sound-fitted 4F from company through a website where I ask a reasonable question only to have (1) my original question ignored and (2) the reply phrased in a rude way!  It doesn't help matters that TWO further email enquiries have simply been ignored.

[ Take a look at that webpage and see if you can tell me what you would get in the box if you (a) ordered the £115 'Analogue' option or (b) the £143 'Standard decoder' option.  Would either of these deliver a sound-equipped TTS loco? ]

If they care so little about potential sales then surely they aren't going to stay in business (even more so in challenging economic times) - particularly so, as has been noted elsewhere, they aren't particularly cheap.

Personally, given their response so far, I couldn't care less whether they survive or not.

Kust wondered what other forum members had found or whether I caught Neil on a particularly bad day.

Art

Art

I found one - 

 This thread seemed to have a mix of reviews.  Are there any others?

Seems a shame to lose another retailer but if they don't care about potential customers, what conclusion does it lead to if you make a purchase and experience a problem?

Would be a minimal loss if they have a 'don't care' attitude.

Art

Hi Folks,

Just wondering if anyone else has had a recent negative experience with Olivia's Trains or if i am simply unlucky and caught someone having an 'off day'?

I am looking for a sound-fitted Fowler 4F in OO-gauge (hopefully weathered).  Olivia's seem to have a Hornby 4F TTS in stock - but their website is confusing (at least to me) so I sent an email enquiry.

What I didn't understand was that the loco - described as "Hornby R3460TTS 4F 44198 BR Black Late Crest", was priced as follows:  'Analogue £115, Standard Decoder £143 and £256 for Olivia's ESU V4 Sound Fitted.  My query asked what would be supplied if I ordered the £115 loco - since the description was for a TTS model and TTS decoders don't support analogue running.

Their reply said that they offer the model with the sound decoder removed - but nowhere on the page does it seem to be stated that the £115 Analogue option equates to this 'sound decoder removed' option.

A further TWO emails asking them to clarify have simply been ignored.

I know that they are under no obligation to sell to me (or indeed anyone) but I found the tone of their initial reply curt to say the least (and it certainly didn't do anything to answer my query).

Are Olivia's Trains so successful a retailer that they can ignore a genuine query regarding a model for potential purchase and operate a 'There's plenty more fish in the sea' policy ?

I have bought models from them before but this response (or rather, the lack of it) is completely baffling.

Just wondered what the experience of other forum members was regarding this trader.

Art

I will post some pics in this thread when I get them back.

I have no doubt that they'll look superb - which is why I asked David to undertake the work for me.

Art

Hi Jinty,

I'm longing to see what my locos are looking like.

Any chance of 'in progress' pictures?

Art

Thanks for those Chris

Are there any pics of the traverser at all?

Also, if I could ask, what point motors & control do you use.

Looking at DCC Concepts Cobalt Digital or Tortoise at the moment.

Kind regards

Art

This is a fabulous layout with superb detail and a great inspiration to all.

Do you have any more pictures Chris?

If you have one - a pic of the whole length of the layout from either (better yet, both) end/s.

Cheers,

Art

I've sent a message to Kevin - I just need to see what he says before going back to the retailer to see what they'll do.

I'm sure they'll sort it out - or give me a full refund if they can't.

Art

On 12/09/2019 at 10:54, Crosland said:

The issue is usually the inrush current at power up (charging up stay alive capacitors) which leads to the recommendation of a resistor to limit the current or a "programming boosters". It's not difficult to design a system to cope, but a lot of DCC systems are quite long in the tooth

Indeed, this is what NCE themselves suggested - until I told them that only one (out of four) different loco/decoder combinations was sound equipped (and none are stay-alive equipped).

As three of the four decoders are non-sound and by different manufacturers [ESU LokPilot, Lenz Silver and TCS M1], they have suggested returning the unit to them (in the US) for repair.

When pushed they gave me the name of a chap at Coastal DCC that I could contact: Kevin Dickerson kevin@coastaldcc.co.uk

Art

On 10/09/2019 at 15:58, Phil S said:

 

A total failure suggests a failed sense resistor  (if you can see inside - is there a blackened or broken resistor connected to the program connection????

Your result suggests the opposite of adding the resistor is needed .. hence the probability of ta broken connection internally.

 

Hi Phil - thanks for the suggestion.

Looking for a blackened resistor or broken wire/pcb track will be a bit tricky.

Inside the box are a total of three square green PCBs - approx 4" / 100mm to a side.  On the left (the BOOSTER side) there is a single board.  On the right (the COMMAND STATION side) there are two boards, one above the other with around an inch / 25mm gap between them.

The connections to the PROGRAM TRACK output are on the bottom board around 1.5 inches / 40mm from the edge - sufficiently obscured that it is difficult to see that part pf the PCB.

The construction is such that it doesn't look at all easy to take off the top PCB to see the board underneath.

[moan] Why do manufacturers insist on making things difficult to take apart/service? [/moan]

Art

UPDATE:

I tried the a 150Ω resistor in series all I got this time was "CAN NOT READ CV" (I haven't got a 100Ω resistor)

Now tried with a total of four locos with four different decoders and three different decoder manufacturers (ESU Lokpilot and ESU Loksound 54-400, Lenz Silver and TCS M1)  - all give the same result.

All read '255' when reading CVs directly and all give "CAN NOT READ CV" with a 15Ω resistor.

The reply from NCE said, quote "Does this happen with ALL locomotives that you try? Some brands use decoders that you cannot read CVs back on reliably.  Does this also happen with decoders that DO  NOT have sound?
MRC, MTH, and Broadway Limited are the main ones that this happens with.  All programming for these brands should be done using OPS mode programming / programming on the main under full track power."

Art

Hi Folks,

Will give the 100Ω series resistance a try - as you say Pete, it can't do any damage.

The PowerCab is running off NCE's UK wall-wart which puts out 14.1Vdc o/c

The PowerPro is running off a Toshiba Laptop power brick which is putting out 15.74V dc  o/c (the PowerPro can accept up to 28V dc input)

Art

On 08/09/2019 at 21:11, BromsMods said:

Two things to consider:

 

(1) I'm assuming the PowerPro has been transported at some stage in order to reach you.  It might be worth checking that the EPROM and its daughter board are correctly seated onto the main board.  To do this, remove the 4 screws at the bottom of the black box, slide off the cover and check that all of the pins on the boards are correctly seated and none of them are bent.  Yiu can also check the version of EPROM installed from its label. Assuming all is well replace the cover and the screws.

Hi John,

Bit in red.  I picked the unit up from my local shop (they are around 2 miles away).  Before it got there - who knows *shrugs*

I'm struggling to see the logic of the bit in blue.  If the EPROM wasn't seated correctly surely it woudn't work at all - rather than controlling locos without a problem just not reading back CVs correctly??  Still probably worth re-seating the pcb and EPROM (if only to scrape off any oxidation) - but I don't expect it will have any effect.

Bit in green.  See my post three above yours - specifically line 5 where it says "EPROM has a label with " (c) 1994-2003 NCE Corp. 3 / 1 / 07 C " on it."  I don't know if this is the most up-to-date version of the firmware.

Quote

 

(2) I would advise making sure that with the PowerPro you use the two outputs TRACK and PROGRAM TRACK to separate pieces of track as the internal components of the PowerPro act as the Powercab AutoSW and switch power to the TRACK (Main) off and activate the PROGRAM TRACK output automatically when you select Use Programming Track from the PROG/ESC screen menu.

Line 6 of my original post says "... and for the PowerPro, the only connections between Command Station and track are 'Program Track' ."

My OP also says that both the PowerCab and the PowerPro are using the Program Track  (one pair of wires with a plug at one end and wired to the track at the other are being swapped between the rear 'Track' socket of the NCE PCP Panel of the PowerCab and the right-most 'Program Track' output of the PowerPro.  Nothing else is connected.  The 'Program Track' that I am using isn't connected to anything else apart from the Command Station as it is on a completely separate piece of mdf around 600mm long.

Pressing 'Prog/Esc' then '4' on either hand-held cab takes you straight to using  'Program Track' mode.

Hope that helps.

Art

From what I've heard Pete, it is very good.

I have been using their ZenDesk to ask questions and I get replies usually within 24hrs and often quicker.

Booster circuit board has a label saying "062617" - I'm guessing the unit is relatively new from 2017??

EDIT:  Just sent a query to NCE's ZenDesk to ask if  (a) they know what the problem is, (b) if the EPROM may be faulty, (c) if the unit dates (as liiks likely) from June 2017 and (d) what my options are here in the UK if the unit needs upgrading/repairing.

Art