Chuffer Davies

Hi Tony et al, how do you go about populating your engine crew? Frank

Hi Tony, whilst a low powered controller may limit the power, as long as the controller is adequate it is the motor that determines how many amps it needs. There will be slight differences in the maximum number of volts available for different makes of controller. I still remember the formula V=IxR from my o level physics at school. Regards, Frank

I've previously documented it in more detail here. I hope you will find it of interest. The real benefit is the additional weight that can be obtained over the driving wheels by filling the space normally occupied by the motor and gearbox with lead.

This is the third of the five models for our Clayton layout that I am currently finishing off. This time its a small boilered J7. Originally a Stirling engine, by 1930 it had been fitted with a wider Ivatt cab but otherwise was still pretty much as originally built. This model has the same credentials as the J1: CSB suspension, American pickup, motor in tender, friction fit Gibson wheels. Was the J7 the smallest of all the 0-6-0 tender engines of the GNR/LNER? It is certainly deminutive when stood next to a J1 or J3, and the tender doesn't help.

Doh! Now I realise what was bothering me as I wrote it down.

Well here she is, number 2 of 5, and this time its my Q2. Not the most elegant of Ivatt's designs in my view but certainly characterful. These loco's were the regular motive power on the Queensbury Line for the weekly Keighley (pronounced Keithly) Ringer. This was the nickname of a goods train departing the Keighley (GN) Goods Yard once a week carrying amongst other things a consignment of newly manufactured ringers (as in hand cranked devices for squeezing water out of cloth). This model has the same credentials as the J1 shown a couple of days ago, but with the added challenge of working (?) valve gear between the very visible frames. A challenge I don't think I'll be tempted to repeat if I make another. Again my thanks to Ian R for the superb paint work. Some will recall that this model was originally built with its motor in the firebox but despite pulling the long goods around Retford with ease, when it was tested out on the 1:50 gradient on the Clayton layout it was found wanting, failing with only 19 wagons behind it. It was therefore rebuilt with its motor relocated to the tender and the space vacated filled with lead. It will be May at the earliest before we can get access to the Clayton layout to establish just how big an improvement we've actually made. This model is now available as an LRM kit. Wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer,wringer, wringer, wronger, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer, wringer

Hi Andrew, I didn’t know about the alternate position for the coal plate and was guided by the instructions in the kit. Too late now. I think I’ll check with you first before I build any more models if that’s okay? I hope it won’t be too long before you can contemplate a visit to the UK. As of now the earliest it is likely we’ll be allowed access to the club rooms will be May, and even then we may we’ll be limited with regards how many members will be allowed in at any one time. Regards, Frank

Hi Andrew I think you are probably correct in that the model should have the number on the tender (damn it). I provided Ian with a picture of 3009 as it was in the mid 1930's as I wanted him to paint it but also stipulated I wanted it lined. It is obvious looking again at the picture that the loco was not lined by the time the picture was taken. I'm still getting my head around many things LNER and I think I got tripped up by some narrative saying that after 1930 the LNER stopped lining out the J1's, so as Clayton is set around 1930 I took the opportunity to have a lined model. As to the position of the coal plate, as you said GN tenders are a real mine field. The following part image is what I used for reference for the tool boxes and coal plate on 3009's tender. The photo was one I picked up at a model railway exhibition so I don't have permission to share it, but hopefully this small section will be okay. I'll remove if the copyright holder objects. . The toolbox looks to be narrower than I've seen previously and cannot be seen to the right of the driver's head. Keep your eyes pealed in the press for announcements from LRM about new kits. You may get what you've hoped for. Frank

At long last I have been able to undertake final assembly of one of my Covid lockdown projects. Design started in January 2021 and was for me my most difficult project to date because of its curved footplate. Main features are EM gauge, Ultrascale wheels, American pickup, motor-in-tender drive system, and CSB suspension. The tender is the LRM Horseshoe tender. My thanks must go to Ian Rathbone for the superb painting and lining. And yes I have glazed the spectacle plates Tony. Lamps will have to wait until we know what train it will be rostered to haul on Clayton. Four other loco's were returned along with the J1 and so there will be further updates in due course.

Yes good point. I’ve looked again and the gear box casing is definitely integral with the rest of the chassis so the gears can only be released by pushing out their axles. I’ve tried pushing them out with a blunt instrument but they aren’t budging so I’m pretty sure they’ll need a bit more persuasion to release them. Perhaps Dapol will provide guidance when supplying spare gears but I don’t want to risk damaging my chassis because someone else might find it useful in years to come. Frank

Hi Keith, Out with the screw drivers again and here is the result so you can see for yourselves: From the top: You can see that the pinion for the worm is paired with a 2nd gear that transfer drive to the idler gear below. From below: The idler gear is definitely not paired with another and is therefore just a transfer gear directly to the final drive gear. Regards, Frank

I’m not sure I would categorise myself as an engineer, I trained as a metalwork teacher and then re-trained after 3 years as a computer programmer remaining in IT until I retired. However: As you asked me to comment I’ve just stripped out the motor from my redundant chassis and I am able to confirm that there is an idler gear between the pinion gear (turned by the worm) and the final drive gear and I can further confirm that it takes approx 1 1/4 turns of the pinion for 1 turn of the wheel. I’ve not worked out how to dismantle the gear tower, I’m suspicious that the gear housing is an integral casting with the main chassis. It looks like the axle for the pinion gear is glued or splined into the housing so it isn’t going to be easy to swap this gear out, and if you did it would mean having to change the worm to match the new pinion. My expectation is that Dapol will have minimised the number of changes required for the improvements. Amending the moulds for a new gear housing would be a very expensive exercise but amending the worm and pinion ratio would be a minor expense and so my expectation is that is what they plan to do. Even if it was possible to reverse engineer the changes on to the original chassis without damaging the incredibly thin wires, it would still require a capable engineer with the appropriate tools to pull the original worm off the motor shaft and punch out the axle to release the pinion gear. All things considered I think it’s inevitable that the only practical way to upgrade will be to buy a complete replacement chassis. Regards, Frank

Yep you appear to be correct. I managed to capture a screen shot (side on) from the video and scaled it into CAD. The connecting rod still comes out approximately 1mm too long. It should be 6' 10 1/2" between centres and its more like 7' 2 1/2" by my reckoning. They've still got time to correct it.... Frank

Hmm, I’ve used the link and glad to read on the Dapol site that they have sorted the gearing, but whilst I’m sure you are right about the number plate on the smokebox door I can’t spot where it expressly says this. I doubt that when it goes into production that they would make such a mistake especially as the doors are a pop out component anyway so easily exchanged. Thanks, Frank

How can you tell which is the GW model? On a plus note it looks like they’ve upgraded the slide bars and crosshead, but there is no way of telling from the video whether the gearing has been upgraded. Frank

Hi Graham, Delighted you’ve found me. I’ve never had any problems with n/silver. Have you ever tried buying half round brass from Eileen’s and bending that? I know that trying to put a tight bend in brass wire often ends in grief, and it becomes so soft when annealed it’s also a problem. To be honest I tend to avoid using brass wire and prefer to use n/silver or phosphor bronze (especially for sand pipes). Frank

Dear Tom/Richard, its good to hear from you and thank you for your kind remarks. I am fortunate that now I have retired I can at last spend as much time as I would like building models. Its five years tomorrow since I left the bank and I haven't looked back since. I well remember the years of full time work and bringing up a young family where grabbing an hour to model was a luxury and i was pleased if I could build a loco in less than two years. What I did do in those days was have a set up where even if I could only escape for 10 minutes I could achieve something constructive in that time. Things do get easier as the children get older and your role will change from entertainer and child minder to taxi driver at which point you can grab modelling time between fares.... Of course when the grandchildren arrive to some extent its back to square one with school runs and baby sitting but that's a while yet for both of you. Look after yourselves. Frank P.S. The family are all well thank you.

Those of you who were following this topic late last year may remember I mentioned my intention to design and build a replacement chassis for my Mogul in order to convert it to EM. I have now progressed it as far as I can until the weather improves and I can paint the chassis. I am also awaiting delivery of the motor which is on back order from High Level Kits. For anyone interested please follow this link to read more about my project and to see pictures of the near completed model. Regards, Frank

My latest project to convert the new Dapol Great Western Mogul to EM is not quite complete but I can’t get much further until the weather improves and I can get outside to spray the frames. I am also awaiting delivery of a specific motor from High Level Kits, but Chris Gibbon has had to put the company in Furlough because he is having problems with sourcing components. As I have said previously, whilst the Dapol Mogul is generally of a high standard, the chassis has been criticised for its poor crosshead and slide bar castings, and for the 18:1 gear ratio which apparently makes slow speed control problematic. At 210gms the model would be unlikely to have sufficient tractive potential to haul the heavier trains on our Hungerford exhibition layout. The aim of this project has been to design and build a replacement chassis utilising my now standard motor-in-tender drive system. This has allowed me to install the maximum ballast within the body of the loco including in the space normally occupied by a motor and gearbox. This has resulted in a revised locomotive weight of 330 grams, half as much again as the original model. Work on the design commenced in November last year. A general arrangement drawing of the 43xx class locomotive printed in the Great Western Journal was photocopied and imported into CAD. This was then accurately scaled to 4mm/ft so that the frames could be drawn directly over the line drawing. Dapol’s model is based on the later 53xx series the cab of which is 9 inches longer than that of the original 43xx and so I have had to extend the back of the frames accordingly. A particular feature of the prototype is the relationship of the connecting rod and the bottom slide bars. The slide bars have a milled slot at the rear to avoid the connecting rod from hitting it when the crankpin is at approximately 7 o’clock. When I previously built a model of the same prototype using the Perseverance chassis kit I resorted to filing a bevel in the slide bar to clear the connecting rod. The great thing about designing your own models is that you have complete control over the level of detail and the method of construction and so in this model I have recreated the slot. I have then slimmed the connecting rod down by adding a rebate in the rear layer of the rod to provide additional clearance. Whilst I particularly like the sound of a CSB sprung chassis running across rail joints I have not yet got my head around how to arrange things when there is a pony truck or bogie involved. I have therefore settled on a compensated chassis for the loco, the tender however uses CSB springing as compensation beams would interfere with the drive shaft from the motor to the gearbox in the loco. The overall design follows a conventional approach, the cylinders and crossheads are very much based on the Finney/Mitchell design avoiding the need for any castings. I particularly enjoy modelling brake linkage and so I have gone to town on modelling this on the Mogul and its tender. The design work was completed just before Christmas and the CAD files sent off to PPD Ltd for processing. The metal was back with me in January and a visual check did not immediately reveal any glaring errors in the etches themselves. Construction then proceeded much as for any flat packed kit. One thing I always include in my etches is a pair of axle spacing jigs that allow me to accurately space the horn guides in the frames (using the plain axles) without first assembling the coupling rods. There were a few errors that needed sorting, particularly the cylinders. I managed to bodge the cylinders back into shape and corrected any/all the other errors at the same time reverse engineering the CAD design to create a clean version. Despite my initial scepticism, the Dapol footplate has required minimal adjustment to accept the new frames and drive shaft. The hardest part was removing a couple of mounting pillars onto which the original Dapol chassis was attached, these occupy the space required for the rear sand boxes. My standard approach to securing a chassis to a loco is to use a couple of 1mm dowels into the back of the drag box at the rear of the loco and a single screw under the smokebox at the front. The following illustration shows the full extent of the design including the cradle into which the motor will be installed. I have provided replacements for the fall plate and the reach rod, the later because on some of the Dapol models the rod has a very obvious curve to it. This is a lot of effort (and development cost) to go to for just one model of course. It was always my intention to make these etches available to EM and P4 modellers wanting to convert their own Moguls. With that in mind the frames are etched with axle holes for top hat bearings so that the chassis can be built rigid if preferred. It is also not mandated to build this with the motor in the tender, it can readily be installed in the firebox if preferred. Anyone interested in acquiring these etches can message me on RM Web. My model will be completed later in the year and in the meantime I need to get back to designing and building models for Clayton. Thanks for reading, Frank

Hi Tony, is there something odd happening with the cab's beading? Its not really for a GW modeller to comment on Sir's LNER modelling but in this case, and having built the LRM J3 previously, I believe the beading on the bottom outer corner of the J3's window should be squared off and the top outer corner radiused up over the roof, but on your model this seems to in reverse. Otherwise...... nice going. Frank

A slight word of caution with regards reuse of commercial wheel sets in EM. Their wider profile can cause additional clearance challenges between the splashers and behind slide bars, problems that are reduced when using the slightly narrower Gibson or Ultrascale wheels. Markit wheels are also available but are of similar thickness to commercial wheels from Hornby etc. Frank

And when at the back of its stroke the back of the cross head aligns with the rear of the slidebars....

Whilst I would always advocate the benefits of being an EMGS member, having B6’s available in kit form will be helpful to non EMGS members who haven’t an EMGS member available to order points for them. Frank

Hi Ken, I’ve just started the build this afternoon. If your preference is to retain as much of Dapol’s mechanism as possible then the Flexichas solution under development from Brassmasters would be a better option for you. It would be best to check with Dapol whether the gearing for the Prairie can readily be reverse engineered into the Mogul. As a minimum you would need to pull the worm off the motor’s shaft and swap out the top pinion gear. That could be anything from dead simple to almost impossible depending on how firmly the worm is attached to the motor. Best of luck, Frank

Sorry to disappoint but whilst the wheels are the same between the Mogul and Prairie it will definitely not be a simple axle swap to change the gear ratios. If it were only a change to the gear on the axle it would require a much larger diameter gear which would then not fit. My money is on a different worm and pinion ratio, that way Dapol can then reuse the chassis castings from the Mogul. Frank