Chris_z

Headshunt:Have I interpreted you correctly - see annotated image. I was certainly wondering about a Yellow Disc. Could it be changed and still correct for LNER / BM? How would a driver know in real life to pass an 'on' Red Disc? Thanks for clearing up the Yard Signal. I suppose you happen to know what Frank wrote on the blue notice? Again thanks for clarifying the gantry. Much appreciated. Quite a few gantry drawings to change now.... I am looking at the signalling from a real railway perspective.

Hello Tony, I know we've never met but were members of the same MES at separate times. I have tried to e-mail you, so I am extremely glad you've been able to post these replies. Many thanks. I hope you will be able to help further. I did want to ask your permission to use some of your photos in this thread to help illustrate some points I try to make - possibly with annotations. Is this possible? I was also wondering whether you have more photos not on Flickr? I'm especially looking for early photos of the layout and close-up photos of the signals. As to your control panel comments, I need to seek clarification - in additional posts. Are you able to clarify the red numbers I've previously highlighted as not being able to read? Did you ever discuss the origin / ideas behind the layout? e.g. Did you ever get to see any of Franks notes and drawings of his research? Very little of what I'm posting was in my mind when I met him. I was too busy thinking about what the layout would be like as Modern Image (1980s!). My perspectives and interest in history have changed somewhat. Again, I'm very grateful for you contributing. I'll be busy editing and replacing previous images and posts to up-date them.

Finally, the 20th century before Franks 1958 time period. I've tried to coal mines and oil fields as context for my assessment and variation of Franks scenario.

Ah yes, where was I.... the 1890s...

Hmmmm!I think you're on the wrong thread. Try this.... http://www.themapcentre.com/fictional-map-of-ambridge--borchester-district---the-archers-bbc-radio-4-8857-p.asp Or better still.... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/8097-blog-the-railways-of-borsetshire-premise-for-a-fantasy/ And... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/440/entry-2096-premise-for-a-fantasy/

I've had another attempt to fit Franks route onto the map. I'm not happy with the fit, but it's the best I can do unless someone has something Frank drew in its conceptual stage.I've annotated a few things. Fortunately there is a curve - which I've estimated to be ~290m radius - in the vicinity of Ollerton, that is a useful reference. The fit I posted earlier is clearly far too tight. I've examples of actual curves similar to the 290m curve with speed limits of 25 - 30mph. NOTE: Since posting this originally, I have found earlier photos of BM with a 30mph speed sign on the Departure (UP) line just after the last siding of the freight yard. It's no longer on the layout. Getting from the nearest tunnel to approximately where the signal gantry is located can't be more than ~2000m. The difference in elevation is absolutely not less than 15m, but much more likely to be 20-25m. That means the final approach to Borchester Market would have a gradient of ~1 in 75, maybe 1 in 100 at the most generous. On the question of earthworks, I tried to assess the Mid-Notts Joint LMS / LNER line built 1931 from the LMS line north to Ollerton. The maximum elevation of the line seems to be no higher than 45m. The deepest cutting seems to be ~15m+. There are no tunnels. When you look at the N&OR route, there are no tunnels shown, but it is obvious some fairly significant cut and fill would have been required. I have to conclude that Franks solution is as much about creating a layout to fit the available space. I think he missed a much better location - more on that later. In the meantime my latest attempt at a fit.

Same map again, but with the 2 proposed alignments for the N&OR. The Railways of Newark-on-Trent by Michael A. Vanns is an excellent book with plenty of maps and plans.

No worriesTaking a step back, I'm going to try and go through a thought process. Below is a map (National Library of Scotland has an excellent collection of online maps - and growing) of the main area I shall be dealing with. The 1:25000 maps online were published 1937-1961 for this area - depending on the sheet. See index link - http://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=10.868958822946428&lat=53.2153&lon=-1.0605&layers=14&b=1&point=0,0 I have annotated it to show the railways in the 1880s. Not many. There were no coal mines in this area either. Here - http://www.healeyhero.co.uk/rescue/individual/Bob_Bradley/A-1.html - is an excellent website about coal mining history in the area. If you 'dig' (no pun intended) through it you'll see how mining developed from west to east over time. There's a lot about events and closures. Also some very informative maps of the mine workings extent.

Thanks very much for your kind words. I've always wanted to produce a coloured BM plan."Flush siding": Have a look at online photos that show the Goods Yard. I had to do some searching, but there are images covering the 'NE corner'; or if you have a copy of the 1980 article. Basically, there's a hard surface around the Goods Shed where road vehicles move around the yard. It butts up against the siding in question - flush with the rail top. If the hard surface had been extended across the track - as much of the siding through the Goods Shed - it would become 'inset' track. Does this help? PS. I was once a member of the SNCF Society - amongst others - for awhile. Long time ago.....

Ah! You're pre-empting a lot of stuff I'm coming onto. I've done quite a bit of research on this. Please bear with me, because I have quite a bit to post.You're quite right about the Newark & Ollerton Railway. The first route failed to get Parliamentary approval (1883), but the revised route was approved 1887. Had it been supported by the GNR, it should have been built within the usual 5 years an Act of Parliament allowed. I think it could have been opened by 1889; well before the Lancashire, Derbyshire & East Coast Railway received approval. The very short version of what's coming is this: - the N&OR would have been an agricultural line with hops as a major source of traffic - coal mining didn't reach Bilsthorpe, Ollerton and Thornesbury (Edwinstowe) until the mid / late 1920s - BM couldn't have been founded on coal - coal was never mined east of those 3 pits, including the whole of Lincolnshire (SEE NOTE BELOW) - Franks location for BM (Kneesall) is too close to Newark-on-Trent to be a market town - as I will demonstrate, the layout doesn't fit the topography as Frank imaged - a much better place would be New Ollerton! I've worked this out in some detail and was hoping to take it stage by stage. I've even used GIS (Geographic Information Systems) software to test the practicality of Kneesall as a location. None of my research detracts from BM; it simply moves it to a new location which would require few changes to the layout as built. So bear with me while I gather the material for posting. The attached map (1:25000 scale - NLS website source) shows my attempt to georeference and rectify the central part of Franks location see (my redraw above). It doesn't work. I'll explain another day, but it involves differences in elevation, track distances and earthworks. More to come....... NOTE (May 2017): Further research on coal mining in the area complicates this statement. No new mine shafts were sunk east of these, but the extent of underground mining has surprised me. I am plotting this and will post information.

I think I've done as much as possible with the information to hand. So, for the moment, l'll move on to the - for me - the most interesting element of Franks Borchester Market - the scenario. I've redrawn his location diagram. This is very diagrammatic. The area of the scenario and model has been vastly exaggerated, presumably for legibility.

Thanks to some excellent photos from Charlie of BM 1992, I now feel confident in producing a layout plan for 1992. BORCHESTER MARKET 1992

Finally been able to make some progress on redrawing the Control Panel Diagram - see below.I will have to wait until such time as access to the original diagram is possible for further information. For now, I hope this helps. THIS HAS NOW BEEN SUPERCEDED. PLEASE SEE LATER POST.

Many thanks,See my reply to you. Chris

Looking at my posted image, the inset hasn't come out that well.Here's a close-up. Sorry for any confusion. I got the far right number first time. It's still the far left, but also a number in the middle. Looks like 57??, but that would duplicate as well. On the signals.... If you compare this inset with the gantry I drew in an earlier post, you'll see 2 additional disc signals shown on the inset - the one on the far left and 57. They look like the ones on the other face! To clarify.... my drawings show inbound (down) and outbound (up) respectively. The inset shows outbound (up) and inbound (down) respectively! Confusing.... I wonder if Frank got them mixed up when he drew them?

Thanks very much.I've got most of this one, except the far left and far right signal (disc) numbers. Are they 24 & 26?? 26 would make sense, because it would carry on from 23, 24, 25 above it. 24 doesn't make sense, because it duplicates one of those I've already mentioned. The 2nd number looks like a 4, but can't make out the number before it. Any suggestions. I should point out that there seem to be a lot of things wrong with that diagram. I was looking at uncoupling ramps in the photos and there's a lot of changes. I think the original diagram must have quite a few bits of paper glue onto it with amendments. Some of these look as though they've fallen off. Most of the fixed (uncontrolled) ramps have been removed. Some ramps should still be shown - all controlled, I think. Some of the rail-breaks don't match those on the published plan in 1980. I really need help sorting out the signalling - see earlier posts from me. Just in case anyone is wondering how much more is coming.... lots! I haven't even come to the subject that interests me most. Thanks again. Appreciate the help.

Thanks for trying. Been there done it! I've put the image through 'torture' to see what I could get. What you see is the result of the 'torture' and the remaining unreadables. I guess I really have to ask Charlie when BM is next accessible to see if more can be read and write it down.

I'm trying to redraw the Control Panel diagram, but am unable to read all the small text. I've written over in black where it can be read. The unreadable is marked with a red T. Also, I cannot read all the numbers on the gantry diagram. PLEASE CAN ANYONE HELP?

Hi,I've done more work on trying to understand the signalling. The attached diagram tries to encapsulate most of my queries. BM is a good example for trying to understand semaphore signalling. Not only do I want to understand, but it maybe useful for others. BM rightfully got that award for signalling. I wonder if it had such awards in the past? The diagram attached: - I've created my own numbering system for simplicity. I know they don't match the control panel, but it shouldn't matter for this post. - yellow disks cover the main (running & subsidiary) signals - blue disks cover disc signals. - disc signals on the right of the track have been identified (more than I thought) - since doing this I realise there are at least 2 'main' signals on the 'wrong' side - 3-arm shunt bracket and the yard signal. My question about the headshunt disc concerned 'real' life, not the model operation. I've got 6 books on signalling, but they don't answer many questions! Does that ground disc (blue 20) cover the immediate right divergence? If so, how is shunting allowed with the disc 'off'? I know the turnout is set for straight ahead moves, but how is permission given for shunts involving the headshunt? That 'yard signal' has a blue notice board. I can read the large heading, but what does the rest of it say? Most questions now answered. Replacement diagram below encapsulates current knowledge. Thanks for help - Tony, Charlie, Rod.

I REALLY, REALLY NEED HELP with trying to understand the signalling on BM.I have a string of questions, but I'm starting with a signalling plan with some key questions. Hope someone can help. I think I made a mistake trying to get the Theatre Indicator numbers from the 1980 plan. See attached. UPDATE: The 3 panel Theatre Indicator: 2 should be 3. The Yard Signal does have a small arm for shunting movements onto the main line. The disc question is answered later in this thread. I'm grateful to Tony Walmsley for answering all 3 questions.

I'm sorry, but I know nothing about Borchester Town. I've never even seen a picture of it.

IN MEMORY OF FRANK DYER Redrawn BORCHESTER MARKET 00 Layout, as in 1980. Hope this is OK. More to follow......

PS I do appreciate your circumstances concerning the storage of BM and premises issues.

Thanks very much for replying. You've clearly done much more than I thought.3B: It never looked right being called 'Goods Shed'. I think it's wrongly named. If you have a look at the 3 drawings I did of the 'NE Corner', you'll see the Goods Shed is already on 2. I hope you won't mind me not waiting for approval, but I took the liberty of extracting a section of one of your website photos to better explain. I've put red lines where board joins are visible. The others are clearly visible in many online images. I think I have a better idea of the consolidation of boards you described. The 'south side'... Quite drastic changes. I haven't fully understood your description, but the annotated drawing shows what I think you were describing. Feel free to download and annotate and repost. I hadn't intended posting the 3rd image, but it shows my attempt to understand the current storage alterations. You say you've moved the lefthand turntable. This makes perfect sense of the online images. I think there are 5 additional short sides at the far left side. Not to be confused with the 5 main storage lines on the rest of that board. Is this all useful? I can't provide materials information. Please feel free to add information.

TRACK, RAIL-BREAKS AND SIGNALSThis information is still incomplete, but needs input from anyone who can help. First is the track (visible and hidden) as shown in the 1980 article. Some rail-breaks are missing and incomplete. The second image highlights these and needs input. The third image shows the signalling as I have been able to understand it. I really need help to correctly identify each signal in order to produce a labelled diagram. I hope you can see the Theatre Panel. A very high resolution scan plus reference to online images has, I think, allowed me to correctly identify the routes (left to right): - Platforms 1 & 2 - centre road (X) - Platforms 3 & 4 - Goods Yard headshunt (Y). I noticed that some of the newly replaced signals - excellent though they are - have Franks upper quadrant disks replaced by lower quadrant disks. This layout represents 1958 and LNER (GNR) signalling remained. They used upper quadrant disks. I hope Newhaven can remedy this to maintain the 1958 era.