Hull Paragon

I am no longer responding to any posts on the thread.

Thanks Jim

Could you telll me what materials you used for the scratch built points please?

I am hoping my boards survive! I have used hardwood ply which has  a coat of preservative on it and has then been covered with felt.

I'll drop you a message later with my email address.

Ray

The manual that comes with the box is in German! To get an English version one must go online. The pdf is over 100 pages.....it's  difficult to read and expensive to print.

Does anyone have a 'light' version of the instructions or know where a smaller, essential, version can be found?

Thanks

Ray

I am rebuilding an O Gauge layout in my garden. The original layout was a single track loop DCC controlled (NCE) so I know it is viable. The new layout is a double (2-way) loop about 50m long. There will be a siding at a station approximatey 7m long with a point at each end on one of the straights. I intend to run a line from an indoor layout to join the loop on a curve about 30m away.

I don't want to use anything less than 10' radii throughout if I can (there is one section that might need to reduce to 9'), so that negates the use of Peco points. It is my intention to use handbuilt points using S7 chairs with Peco rail. I don't think I can use wooden sleepers (walnut) so I will probably use C&L plastic ones.

My question is: has anyone any experience of doing this? What problems could I encounter with hot weather at one end of the scale and frost at the other?

I have also looked at point operation and frog polarity. At the moment I am considering using surface mounted servos (I don't think Crocodiles under the boards outside is a good idea), with DCC decoders and frog juicers. Everything  on tehsurface will be covered to prevent damage, or removed when not in use. Again, does anyone have any experience of using these or other devices for external point switching?

Thanks

Ray

43 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Like most things its a question of balance but the odd direct approach when needed does get results.

 

The problem with forums is the impersonal nature and relative lack of context so often the replies you get have as much to do with the 20 previous posts someone has read that have caused them to form a stance on a particular issue. Additionally anything resembling a rant tends to provoke a reaction - which in a way is a good thing as it probably helps everyone to keep some perspective.

 

I posted an very innocuous comment about something the other day and was rewarded with someone pontificating at length about a number of things most of which went completely over my head as they didn't relate to me in the slightest. If it made him happy then I guess no harm done! 

Thanks Hal

A not unreasonable post! Text lacks inflexion, stress, tone and expression. Without convoluted descriptions of nuances and humour etc,  people will read posts in a context that they assume and respond accordingly. I was always told that any misunderstanding is the fault of the communicator which I think is still a valid view so I will take the blame for that!

Ray

On 13/11/2020 at 22:26, adb968008 said:

Its always interesting to see someones self importance inflate to the level of being on par with the CEO, but then become all offended when the cavalry isn't sent over the hill offering golden palm leaves but get a polite brush off.

 

The CEOs job is to sell the company.

Sales.. sells the product.

Customer care deals with the faults.

You may not like being at the bottom of the stack, but they will solve your query faster than those at the top.. if they dont, going up one step at a time still usually works better, as if you shoot at the ceiling chances are you’ll miss and no one below knows what your on about. All it does is rub everyone up the wrong way and ensure your noted for all the wrong reasons in future.

 

if you really want a CEOs attention, stop buying the product and start buying shares. Once you've bought enough he’ll do whatever you want.
 

 

I'm not sure what you are assuming here. In the first instance the supplier of my model suggested I contact Kim Nannestad. In the second, I had no idea that he was the CEO. As it turns out (see the posts above) Heljan is hardly ICI when it comes to management structures.

Perhaps I should just buy the company and become the CEO myself. Then you could write to me and I would tell someone to fix your problem.

Anyway, I am not averse to writing to the top person. I have solved many issues that way because normally, when there is an issue that isn't being resolved at the bottom, when the person at the top tells them to sort it out, they do!!!

On 13/11/2020 at 20:15, Phil Parker said:

 

I'm sure you think this is hilarious, but bearing in mind the deliberatly inflammatory title of this topic, I don't. Keep it civil or the thread gets locked. 

Phil

I can assure you that the title was not meant to be inflammatory at all. I thought long and hard for a title which I thought would attract relevant members and to relate my (poor) experience specifically with Heljan. My core theme for this post is/was poor customer service in the hobby of which this (for me) is just one issue of many and is current. In the end I chose a title to reflect that and the final comment made by Kim Nannestad reproduced above.

Thanks

Ray

On 13/11/2020 at 16:59, 61661 said:

Dear Ray,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention (and thanks to Phil Parker for making me aware of the thread). Firstly, let me assure you that we do not take our customers for granted. We value your loyal support and constructive feedback, both positive and negative, especially where it allows us to improve our products/service. 

There are several points raised here, so allow me to deal with each in turn.

1) Gears: this issue was limited to certain early O gauge locos produced 12-15 years ago and was acknowledged and resolved many years ago. No recent models have suffered from this issue. 

2) Class 31 plinth fixings: We were very disappointed when damaged 31s started to arrive with customers as they passed our QC checks in China and Denmark. The issue only became apparent when they were shipped individually and subject to violent shocks in the post. Unfortunately we were let down by our factory on this as the plinth was not what we approved. Although it is no help for the most recent batch, we have pushed the factory to devise a more satisfactory and robust solution for future models, including the refurbished 31s due next year. We are confident that this will overcome the issue and ensure that models arrive intact. 

3) Internal wiring on older models: Older O gauge models including the Class 31 were developed before DCC and sound took off to the extent we see now. Therefore the internal wiring is not as DCC Friendly as more recent models. This is being addressed on new models, which will have chassis with plug-and-play decoder interfaces. Personally, if I was not confident of wiring in a decoder/speaker myself, I would take advantage of the various people out there who fit them on a professional basis. It is worth the money to get it right. 

Given the cost of redesigning and retooling chassis to provide a DCC Ready interface, and the large number of models involved, the old style chassis are likely to be with us for some time yet. Which leads me on to...

4) Instruction sheets: No argument from me that the old i-sheets were inadequate and we are currently in the process of rewriting and redesigning them as we work our way through the range. The 31 rerun predates this process, but you will start to see more comprehensive instructions from now on. This takes some time to filter through, but it is happening as a direct response to customer feedback. 

5) Customer service: Firstly, it's important to challenge the notion that Heljan is a large company. Including myself, there are just five full-time employees - four in Denmark and me in the UK. We are not blessed with the huge teams that other manufacturers enjoy. With regard to email responses, cultural differences may explain their brevity, as well as the fact that Kim is not writing in his native language. However, I hope that this post may go some way to clarifying the situation, and to reassure you that we are listening to feedback and making significant changes to our products as we speak. 

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben 

 

Ben

First of all Ben, I did not know that you represented Heljan in the UK. If I had, I would certainly have addressed my issues to you.

Many thanks for your in depth response. I can understand that tooling etc can be a difficult thing to change and quite honestly, I knew that the loco could not be made DCC ready when I ordered it. However, a wiring diagram/circuit diagram can't be that difficult to source can it?

I am 'sure' that I can install the decoder....I have seen others do it (online) and I have done other locos which I have built. I have gleaned information from a variety of sources: information that could easily have been given to me by Heljan. For example, I understand that the LED resistors are not part of the main PCB. I also know that if I am not careful, I could damage the fan mechanisim if I rip the lid off too quickly.

I am not asking Heljan for step by step instructions.....just the sort of helpful information that can ease my task.

The buffer problem is slightly different. Luckily I recovered the spigot and spring that had loosened and fallen out. I was able to reassemble but because the spigot was loose, it had to be pressed fully home to fully engage the buffer head. This resulted in a very short buffer stem......hence my comment that I would have to turn a new, (longer) one. I suppose I could go back to Heljan and get a replacement but I don't know how long that will take and I will have to go through the rigmarole of doing it! I could glue it but the tolerance would probably mean that the spring would be glued in and the buffer functionality would be lost. However, and perhaps more important, I do not know if the three other buffers will do the same thing....possibly somewhere where the components willl be lost forever.....so my confidence is a bit low as far as that is concerned!  It's probably a silly question but why are the buffers not secured by nuts? A drop of glue can lock them and they stay put!

Thanks again

Ray

I don’t know about anyone else, but I am getting tired of being treated as a cash cow by model rail businesses that care little for customer service. A considerable number of dealers and suppliers that I deal with have let me down quite badly in recent times but there is no regulation in our hobby and when faced with a ‘take it or leave it’ option, there is little that can be done. A current case in point is Heljan. Yes, Heljan: they of the ‘there is nothing wrong with the gearing on our locomotives’ company even though loco after loco failed. And how long did it take for that failure to be addressed by Heljan?

I recently took delivery of a new Heljan Class 31 7mm locomotive. When I opened it up I found that the fixings for transport had failed. This was not in itself a massive issue as there was no damage done but as I removed the loco from the box, a buffer fell out. A pin securing the buffer head and spring had fallen out because it didn’t fit properly. (Who knows why it is a pin and not a screw?). I wrote to Heljan saying that I would have to make a new pin as the existing one was of no use. I had had an interesting email from Kim Nannestad who I understand is the company owner. (Not verified). He thanked me for telling Heljan and congratulated me on finding a solution.

Sorry to hear about your issue, but also at the same time glad that you solved it easily. (Smiley face icon)

We will make a note of this for future productions.

Med venlig hilsen

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Best regards,

   Kim Nannestad

     +45 63 89 14 71

     +45 40 13 11 89

      www.Heljan.dk

He didn’t offer replacement parts or seem particularly bothered. However, I let that pass.

It is my intention to fit a DCC decoder and speaker in my new loco but, being a man who makes lots of slip-ups, I like to be sure that I am not going to make any potentially expensive mistakes. The ‘instructions’ which come with the model are of no use to anyone. The DCC element is limited to one line: ‘Decoder wiring diagrams should be supplied with your choice of decoder or may be found on the relevant Manufacturers site.’  So I wrote to Mr Nannestad  and asked for some wiring diagrams and any instructions they might have. Here is Mr Nannestad’s response.

Dear Sir

Please follow the instructions which were supplied with the model.

Med venlig hilsen

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Best regards,

   Kim Nannestad

     +45 63 89 14 71

     +45 40 13 11 89

      www.Heljan.dk

I was beginning to get a feel for Heljan’s after sales policy. Having lost what little patience I had when I started out, I wrote to Mr Nannestad and told him that I had spent nearly £500 on his product and the only way to get any information on how to identify the cabling inside his locomotive was to hope someone else had done it and posted the information online. I attached an example of a Class 33 being DCC’d from a MIGO post. I said something to the effect that it wasn’t really acceptable for consumers like me to have to rely on someone’s generosity in sharing their installation experience.

Mr Nannestad did not reply to this mail.

Now, it may be extremely simple to install a Loksound XL decoder and speaker in the Class 31 and some of you might tell me exactly that. But despite my experience, I get cautious when opening a new loco up and as far as I am concerned, I don’t think it is unreasonable for the manufacturer to give me something as simple as a circuit diagram to assist me. After all, I have spent my money on their product and there is always a possibility that I might do so again. (Well there was!).

It is not good enough that model rail suppliers take the money and then shrug their shoulders when things go wrong or assistance is needed. All I want is to be sure I get things right and a circuit diagram/wiring diagram is all I need. Is that too much to ask?

I offered the article to Mr Nannestad for his comments before I posted it here. This was his response which I think translates to 'Take it or leave it!':

Dear Sir

If you are unhappy with the product return it to where you bought it from for a refund. If you wish spares then please follow the instructions provided with the locomotive.

Med venlig hilsen

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Best regards,

   Kim Nannestad

     +45 63 89 14 71

     +45 40 13 11 89

      www.Heljan.dk

(Anyway, why should I need spares for a brand new straight out of the box locomotive?)

So I am left with a dilemma......I really want this loco...I've waited months for it. If I build my own it will take months and I may not survive that long! However, I am strongly inclined to send it back. No-one who is this blase should make any money at all from me.

I am sure there will be lots of views (positive and negative) so it would be useful to see what the general opinion is.

Ray

2 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

In my opinion as a railway modeller, I enjoy it!

 

I find it hard to talk about what modelling means to me - it was something likely to get you picked on growing up so I don't talk about it. Here is a programme that, although desperately superficial due to being crammed into a competition format, is still actually about railway modelling. And it is entertaining even if the standard of modelling is often necessarily basic, so non modellers watch it. 

 

If nothing else, it is a starting point for a conversation abut how what I do is different from what is on the telly. I must say those short shots of Clarendon do help illustrate the contrast

 

And I'd still be proud to have made that beach and cliffs 

 

Richard

I agree about the beach!

13 minutes ago, Budgie said:

 

I thought that yesterday's episode showed that the ethos hasn't really changed since the previous series. As I see it modellers build layouts that depict either a real scene or a freelance scene that is a real scene in the modellers' imagination. What we have had up to now is scenes that are fantastical and not real. For example, we don't have active volcanos in the UK, and we don't get many earthquakes and sinkholes that affect the railway.

 

One of the judges is the editor of the Railway Modeller. I mention this as RM has published many "plans of the month", and it seems to me that the challenge would be better if the teams were given a selection of these plans and told to choose one to model. This way we would see how people build models that could go on the exhibition circuit, and be exhibited for several years. A good example of what I am thinking of is "Recycle by Rail" in the October 2019 issue of RM, even though that is in N gauge, and the challenge seems to be all in OO.

 

I'd be interested to hear what other folks have to say about this idea.

At the risk of offending almost everyone....................

I watched the episode last night. Despite the obviously excellent efforts and skills of the participants, I thought it was awful. (I seem to be in a minority here but there you go). The whole programme seemed to be about special effects.....the railway was secondary. If a programme was made about ship modellers building a harbour with a tsunami feature it would have been no different. In my opinions as a railway modeller it is almost unwatchable. Apart from a few short glimpses there is nothing to help a budding railway modeller and apart from the name of the show, nothing that sells railway modelling as a hobby.....my opinion of course!

So I agree with you. The show is supposed to be about model railways....so set challenges that domonstrate this and do away with the trashy 'let's make it exciting' scenario that seems to be endemic nowadays. Lraelsie that in itself, modelling layouts is probably quite dull for a TV audience, but maybe the production team can introduce their own version of 'innovation' to overcome this.

OK....now I'll sit back and wait for the flak!!

Ray

The Summer is rolling on and for some time I have abandoned working indoors as the weather is so good. Instead, I have continued to work on the garden railway. So far I have installed 33 posts and almost 50 yards of track bed. The track laid to date is about 50 feet long (about a third of the total length) and over the next week I hope to install the final 2 posts, the final 3 track bed lengths and as much track as I can get done. I have made one construction error and I have to think of a solution or I will have to compromise on my 10 ft curves which are the preferred minimum.

Progress so far (the posts are 4 ft apart). The gap on the right is where the final 2 posts are just visible......

If I can keep the momentum up I also would like to start the incline to take the track into my cabin and connect up with the (so far unbuilt) indoor layout.

Ray

Things not quite working this morning so I'll try again......

June sped by. The first event was that Robins chose to nest in my workshop which slowed things down a bit. I couldn't close the door which meant I had to drill an access hole in the door so I could lock up overnight. It worked and 4 chicks were raised.........

June is holiday and break time so I went fishing for a week. It rained of course but I took 3 kits with me just in case.....they all got partially built! When I got back I also did a bit of work on the bogies of my Thompson coach (lurking in the background).....

I also took a major step with my garden railway by actually starting it. The first posts have been installed and the inaugural 24 feet of track is laid. It will be a no-frills layout to start with anyway. I just want to get it running before the end of the 'summer'. (The posts are all upright! The photo has a bit of parallax error!)

The Class 4 wheels will be ready soon so it will be full steam ahead on that project.....

Ray

On 04/06/2019 at 09:28, brianCAD said:

Have tried some of the foregoing methods, but now will not do anything other than turn and fit separate tyres.  Tyre insulation has mostly been thin rings turned from PVC (more easily turned to exacting dimensions than Delrin), and secured with super glue. 

Two locos have ordinary notepaper for rim insulation (0.004" or 0.1mm thickness), soaked in Araldite , with the tyres wrung on. 

Another set used a variation of Michael's method above, but by cutting around the thickness of the rim instead of the spokes, filling one half length at a time with warmed up Araldite - to make it run and fill the groove fully.  These wheels were from my own nickle-silver lost wax castings, which had a small slot cast in the rim for starting the piercing saw blade.

(Slaters wheels have the plastic centres moulded into the rims, which are grooved internally - so don't see how those tyres could come loose.) 

Thanks Brian....a very interesting post.

Ray

On 28/02/2019 at 12:37, Michael Edge said:

How long ago was that? Current Slater's production is always concentric and it's hard to imagine the rigid plastic centre moving much. A long time ago there was a very bad batch of axles which caused all sorts of problems with Slater's wheels but long since dealt with.

I do agree that cast iron wheels are better in many respects though, personally I insulate them by cutting and aralditing the spokes, in my experience insulating bushes at the wheel centre are far more likely to cause trouble.

Cutting the rim to insulate is possible but far from an easy lathe operation.

Michael

After some considerable thought, I've concluded that cutting and aralditing the spokes will be my preferred solution.

If this post reaches you would you please tell me what your method is......tools used; width of slit in spoke (I reckon 0.5mm will be about right); type of araldite etc?

Thanks

Ray

One small but extremely irritating problem that followed all of the above shenanigans was that one of the soldered nuts inside the cab securing box fell out. I thought I might have to find a way of getting the box off to resolder it but in the end I turned a small bush about 4mm deep, tapped a 10BA thread in it and soldered that in. There always seems to be extra work to do after major surgery....well there is for me anyway!

You can just see the bush in the top hole.....the other nut is still in place.

Ray

On 01/06/2019 at 18:27, 90164 said:

When I did this I soldered in the handrail knobs on the right hand side, ran the wire through them temporarily and used that to help line things up. Seemed to work.

Yes that would work well. I used the handrail on the smokebox door when I first did it, but somehow I didn't get it right....hence the slight overkill this time.

Ray

Right! This time there will be no mistakes. As I have no tabs to locate to ensure the boiler(smokebox) is aligned properly with the frames (saddle) I decided to set up a crude but effective jig from some old Lego bricks. This gave a horizontal against which I could assess the alignment. I didn't want to rely on my eyes again....which haven't worked too well in the past! So I threaded a straight piece of wire through some of the holes in the boiler.......this gave a horizontal reference for the loco. Line the two up and solder it up.

I'll do something simlar when I put the smokebox door back using the handrail as the horizontal.

Ray

It did this time Roja! Let's hope that I can get the rest done without incident.......

Ray

On 12/05/2019 at 14:55, Hull Paragon said:

I have one or two bits and pieces I wanted to post but I didn't want to clog up my loco build thread, nor any other thread....so I thought I'd try a multi-purpose thread to talk about odds and ends. So, first:

 

Has anyone experienced any problems with Proxxon drills? I bought a FBS 240/E about 4 years ago. Recently it developed a serious problem which after I stripped it down, I discovered was a bearing on the output shaft. The bearing had seized. The drill is used only for modelling purposes....usually drilling and small light milling. I asked an agent in the UK what I could do and they told me they would contact Proxxon. Like me, they thought that even though the drill is/was out of warranty, such a failure was rather unusual and shouldn't be acceptable. Proxxon thought otherwise and responded simply that it was out of warranty. However, they could do a spare shaft at around £30+ on a 5/6 week delivery. Much to my annoyance, I had to buy another one, (I already had the Proxxon drill press). Waiting 6 weeks was out of the question, and the cost was almost 50% of a new one anyway!

 

I wasn't too happy, so I have packaged it up and sent it to Luxembourg to check the bearing failure with their supplier (Surely, the supplier offers better than a 12 month warranty on components such as these?) I don't know what will happen but I remain optimistic...........

 

Ray

Well, Luxembourg responded by sending me a brand new shaft with bearing and a letter of apology. I fitted the new shaft and now the drill runs perfectly.

Brilliant service from Proxxon Europe.......but not so good from Proxxon UK!

Ray

I finally got round to unsoldering (desoldering?) the boiler. I have to admit that I've been putting it off and putting it off for much too long, so much so that in the meantime I have constructed the body of a WEP Fruit Van 'D',  glued up 36 parts to make up an Ian Kirk Thompson Brake 3rd Composite coach sides, followed by the floor and underframe, painted and applied transfers to a Slaters Tank Wagon and paid a visit to Digitrains in Lincoln! But the boiler problem has always been niggling away and so this morning I removed the pipe conduit frame and the footplates and prepared for action.

I have been really worried that when heating the firebox transition ring, the firebox wrapper could break away with the implication of quite difficult problems ensuing. To try to alleviate this I sort of wrapped the firebox in kitchen towel and taped the ends before soaking the towel in water.  I also filled the washout plugs with a small piece of towel again soaked in water to prevent the plugs dropping out. Then with heart in mouth I applied a gas torch to the join. Within a short time the boiler came off.....completely intact apart from the boiler bands.

The next problem was the saddle which is/was epoxied on. There is a lot of soldered metal on the saddle which could break apart so again I packed what I could with soaked towel and applied heat to the very small opening on the underside. Thankfully, the joint failed quite quickly and the saddle came away without any soldered joints failing.

Now I need to clean it up and put it back together again.........properly this time!

Ray

On 14/05/2019 at 17:00, mikeg said:

Ray, I used 15mm Hornby track pins pushed into the underlay then tapped in with a ‘toffee hammer’ so that they were just touching the sleepers but still allowing the sleepers to move. If you can’t get the Hornby pins then I would use 12mm panel pins but you have to counter sink the sleepers to allow for the head of the pins otherwise they tend to distort the sleepers as underlay will give if you hit the pins to hard.

 

 I use a 3mm machine centre drill to make holes in the sleepers and that makes the countersink as well you just need to be careful, I always use a handheld pin drill for this job as even a hand drill I found to be to heavy to control the depth of the countersink.

 

Hope this makes how I do it clear.

 

regards mike 

Mike

Thanks for this information.....It is extremely useful. I like the centre drill tip!

Ray

On 12/05/2019 at 16:13, mikeg said:

Have a look in B&Q at the 5mm foam underlay for timber flooring it comes in 600mm sq interlocking sheets in packs of 10 for about £10 and is easy to cut with a craft knife, I used 50mm double sided carpet tape to fix it down.

 

regards mike 

Mike

How did you fix your track down? I assume that if you nail or screw the sleepers to the subsurface, there is a chance that the underlay will be squashed causing uneven trackwork.

Thanks

Ray

On 05/05/2019 at 09:01, dibateg said:

I had a similar problem with mine Ray, so my sympathy. I didn’t take enough care and assembling two locos at the same time checked the same one twice. The other was well out of line, the cab didn’t line up with the front platform and after mulling over it for a day or so, got the gas torch out and heated the cast firebox front until it came apart. Tidied it up, made new bands Andyou wouldn’t know!

 

Regards

Tony

Tony

Thanks for sharing that with me......I'm sure it will all be OK once I have separated the boiler. I epoxied the saddle and it is that which I am prevaricating over. I wanted to buy some Nitomors but it has been Health and Safetied and is no longer as powerful as it was. I am about to order some neat Methylene Chloride and soak the joint in that. I don't want to use heat as I am worried the plates on the saddle might spring apart.......

Ray

1 hour ago, mikeg said:

Have a look in B&Q at the 5mm foam underlay for timber flooring it comes in 600mm sq interlocking sheets in packs of 10 for about £10 and is easy to cut with a craft knife, I used 50mm double sided carpet tape to fix it down.

 

regards mike 

Thanks Mike.

I have some on my workshop floor but I had not considered them as an underlay solution. They are quite hard wearing........and cheap!

Ray