Chuffed 1

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

The photos of M300421 and M300938 in 'The Acquired Wagons of British Railways' volume 4 are dated 'early 1950s'. Both have clasp vacuum brakes.

There's a photo of M309426 on the linked Rapido page.

Unfitted M309426 was photographed at Harrow in 1952 in ‘Wagons of the early BR era’ Larkin.

In standard BR unfitted grey.

Phew! Having just acquired a tiny geared motor and Hornby pug chassis parts, I was about to commence scratchbuilding an Imperial Paper Mills fireless for my impending Gravesend West Street layout.
It would have joined the various wagon, coach and loco projects overtaken by highly unlikely RTR products!

Has anyone seen West Hill Wagon Works new ‘Oil Storage tank’?

it appears to be a complete body and underframe ( but no axleguards, buffers, springs or brake gear) of an ex-LMS 6w Milk Tank wagon.

And at £6.95 it’s an absolute steal!

Surprised they went for all 16t minerals and not just the rivetted ones.

At £25 a pop the welded version is more affordable from Bachmann. 
There’s also ex-P.O. Minerals that could have been done instead.

Ex-LMS steel-ended 5 planks and vans with the secondary suspension would have filled a massive gap in RTR.

Ah well!

Very surprised they didn’t do a ‘Baby Castle’ (Collett 0-6-0).

A pretty ubiquitous loco from right across Wales to the S&D, Devon, DN&S, M&SWJR, Fairford Branch, the West Midlands.

The Bachmann version is well past its bedtime with its undersized wheels, awful chimney and moulded detail.

Dapol have already done the most common tender and it would fill that mid-market niche nicely.

I’m sure the 28xx will sell, but in sufficient numbers?

5 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I don't think anybody ever removed the pipes from anything in the summer - just the 'bags' !

🙈 Quite!I should have looked in ‘Hose Who’ !

On 08/10/2022 at 14:15, Cwmtwrch said:

Nothing to do with Fyffes, who never used the Royal Albert Dock [they did use the West India Dock for a period after WW2]; this was the other large importer of the period, whose trade was also increasing, Jamaica Producers.

Fyffes company histories are clear that there was no import of bananas between 1940 and 1946. They challenged the 1940 decision, but in vain; possibly the diagram was prepared for an eventuality which never arose? Or possibly it relates in some way to their wartime use as insulated meat vans? This is the first time I have come across reference to green markings, so I don't have an answer.

Geest labels could not have appeared before 1954, as they were not involved in the banana trade until 1953, and not under their own name until 1954. Bothe Fyffes and Jamaica producers had labels, but these would not have appeared, so far as I know, until after Government control ceased in 1953.

New banana vans from 1957 had increased insulation and through steam pipes but no steam heating, with yellow spots. From that year also, SR 1478, SR 1479, LNER 140 and BR 1/242 vans started to be converted on overhaul to the same specification, also with yellow spots; the SR vans had their vacuum pipes moved to the bufferbeam [as shown in the photographs posted!], and other vans were withdrawn. Steam through pipes were necessary as all vans were mixed indiscriminately. The 'conversion or withdrawal' process was completed in 1963; from then on steam pipes were removed on the next visit to works. 1961 has no significance in this context.

 

I work in P4 so I am interested in the conversion question - the potential problem is not the axles but the location of the brake shoes in relation to the wheels. Will the shoes clear P4 wheels, please, or will I have to move the brake shoes?

Just received a copy of Dave Larkin’s Pre-Nationalisation Wagons of British Railways today.  Has a 1965 Don Rowland photo of a dia 1479 van in Millerhill yard.  The vacuum pipe has been repositioned but the steam pipes are still in place.

Was the southern still removing steam pipes in summer at that time or was that for loco’s only?

Notice that the next Nelson is Sir Walter Raleigh in Southern and early BR liveries.

An odd choice for the latter as it received a MN chimney in January 1956 and the long boiler two years later (and late crest two years after that).

So unless it has a unique chimney and the unique long boiler it’s only accurate for 1952-5 inclusive.

My bad, thanks for that explanation.  Explains this perfectly.  Cheers!

Don’t be a knob, Jason.

plenty of people look at old threads all the time. Apparently they Google Rmweb and whatever subject they’re interested in!

On 16/03/2020 at 21:29, SouthernEMU said:

"In mid 1962 the first livery change was made with the introduction of a small yellow warning panel below the window at either end of the locomotive. D6530 was the first locomotive to be so treated and had rounded corners at the top of the panel while subsequent locomotives had square corners (and a slightly larger yellow panel - that on D6530 didn't.  "Locomotive D6530 was the first Crompton to be involved in an accident involving serious damage when it ran down an embankment at Gravesend West which resulted in the locomotive bearing a crease in one side for many years afterwards".  

FWIW the official report on this alleges “the crew were answering a call of nature whilst en route to Farningham  Road light engine, when it ran away and crashed into stock at West Street.”

This was clearly nonsense for a whole variety of reasons and I’ve always believed the crew were negotiating the lower part of the IPM access gradient when the loco slid into the stationary vans close to the factory itself.

I believe a cover story (and the turning of the loco on the still extant turntable) was contrived to cover up the passing of the ‘no BR locos past this point’ sign.

The idea of the loco setting off by itself to fortuitously collide with vans on the one occupied siding seems somewhat unlikely. It also doesn’t explain the body crease either. Had the loco come off any other embankment nearby it would have needed more than a patching-up!

Reminds me of a mate who was an armourer in the RAF. He and some pals rolled a Land Rover quite badly, so they hammered out all the panels and quickly resprayed it.  However, the MTO discovered the accident because they’d forgotten to clean their boot prints off the inside of the roof!

He did praise the quality of the restoration though!

Perplexed at this year’s offering. Whilst a lot of people will find something worth buying, and accepting the eras are now more widespread, unfortunately there’s nothing for me modelling SR/WR early sixties.

I did consider the 14xx but it was the same tired old moulding with the completely wrong chimney and general clunkiness.

The last Hornby loco I bought was before Covid and now my hopes reside with Accurascale and Rapido, particularly the former who are open and approachable.

A shame, as the catalogue on SK’s return had some excellent locos (and rolling stock).

Guess its reheated dinners from now on (unless you’re ER).

6 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Eh? There are now multiple largish manufacturers competing, Hornby reckon it will reach saturation in 7 years, but it’s not like they are dropping OO currently. TT seems to have made a decent start on pre orders but it’s going to take several years to bring out anywhere near the range of stock enjoyed in OO to model specific things. 
I’m just starting a West Highland layout and can source stock from Hornby, Bachmann, Accurascale, Realtrack and Dapol. Even if they’d announced a Scotty 37, and 156 in TT I’d be looking at several years before I got say three different locos and the unit plus mk1 coaches let alone the range of wagons seen in the 80’s. This is where multiple manufacturers complementing each other can help the others sales too because people think oh there’s going to be the stock to do this in TT so they start buying. Currently I’m still certain that OO is the only way to achieve my aims in the next five years as Hornby is unlikely to bring out several variations in that period looking at the current scattergun selection and further phase announcements. 

That’s my whole point.  For twenty-odd years we had two big manufacturers competing to keep costs down.  Both Bachmann and Hornby have scaled back over the last three to five years and now we have smaller manufacturers competing on spec, with much smaller ranges, more in the line of 00Works and batch-building.

I don’t think Hornby sees 00 gauge as it did 10 years ago and Bachmann seem ever-slower in bringing their stuff to market, compared to Accurascale, Rapido or Dapol commissions.

I’m glad I accrued my extensive rolling stock over the last decade; I couldn’t afford it now.

42 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

They pulled out of an N support with the demise of Lyddle End nearly a decade ago (and shame, the stuff was good!).

I was thinking more of Arnold but I get your point.

For me in 00 it seems the glory days may be over Of two big manufacturers competing sufficiently to lower prices somewhat.

On 10/10/2022 at 16:41, bmthtrains - David said:

Having had a look through the initial range, what is surprising is they’ve gone for express trains, so long ones basically. Perhaps this is to attract OO modellers as the smaller scale makes them more of an option, but as an N-gauger there’s not much to tempt me as going larger actually makes this more difficult. This may suggest the direction of competition - scaling down not up, which is interesting as it may cannibalise their own OO sales.

 

I’m definitely interested in trying some TT, but I’m not sure what would get me parting money - shorter trains certainly, so maybe a tank engine or similar? At the moment I’m struggling to find an angle that works compared to the benefits of N gauge.

 

David

This whole adventure ( I can’t think of a better word) seems like a complete recreation of the Hornby brand as an online sales/‘new’ scale product.

I can’t see the same commitment to two gauges simultaneously, especially in these troubled times, and fear Hornby is pulling out of 00 and N.

Whether this new scale and approach is a success or not is beside the point for me. The future in 00 seems to be neither blue or red box and the future product range may suffer accordingly.

2 hours ago, Chris M said:

As I recall, Hornby lost its way very badly when SK left some years ago and a number of young guns with a great track record in retail but no knowledge of the model railway business were brought in. Now SK is back Hornby seems to have found it's direction again. It is easy to knock SK and Hornby (and I do occasionally) but at least they are lively and bringing out lots of desirable goodies.

Only speaking personally, I bought heavily in the interregnum of SK’s absence.  I’ve been waiting for a flat-bunkered motor-fitted H class and a late BR standard-boilered Nelson amongst several other promising lines.

Also surprised at certain recent products (suburban GW for instance) that are now heavily discounted. Now that the previous regime’s product lines have ended, there’s little new of interest to me, bar the odd wagon.

I’m not over enthused by Hornby’s current direction, compared to say Rapido or Accurascale.

edit:  part of the problem “the young guns with retail experience” had was the fallout from SK’s ‘Design Clever” at a time when the industry was continuing to add greater detailing and accuracy. Programmes have long lead times and now we’re back in full SK mode. We shall see how successful this will be.

On 05/03/2022 at 13:20, Venator said:

I do wonder how many of us in 1:76 scale would notice many of the dimensional differences. All I was trying to say is an E1 isn't a million miles away from a D1, whilst yes of course there are some differences like the cab and splasher positions. But then I'm the sort of person that didn't really care about Heljan's 33 having a slightly incorrect roof angle, or the Hornby 4VEP corridor being 0.00000000001mm out of scale.

Been looking at this over Xmas. There’s not a lot in it to convert one to t’other.

Above the running plate the power plant’s the same, as far as I can make out, despite the g/a*in Maidment, the E1 front drivers are 3” further forward and the rear 3” back.  The E1 cab is 3” less deep, and of course the 2” lesser driver diameter on the E1’s.

I reckon it would be worth acquiring a late D1 and building a Gibson S&D 2P chassis with the 6’6” drivers and fully motorised etc.,

Then bite the bullet (!), replace the splashers, cut-and-shut the cab and the job would be a good un’!

Probably little more expensive than buying, building, painting and lining a PDK kit and a lot less faff!
 

* TBF, there is possibility that the front driver- rear bogie wheel centres are the same distance apart, but that the E1 bogie is 3” further forward.  Certainly the bogie guard irons seem almost proud of the buffer beam on the E1.

On 31/10/2021 at 20:46, Dunsignalling said:

Good choice of prototype. Quirky but not too rare (while they lasted).

 

Any chance of loads to go with them as Accurascale have done with their 21t minerals?

 

I have a couple of Ian's kits but seem to have put them "somewhere safe".  

 

John

Only 90 of this pattern (Palbrick B with BR clasp brakes, roller bearings and oleo buffers) were built, Ashford 1959.

Numbered B462707-96

Still debating whether to buy a pack of the wagons in ‘original’ condition. It seems all three have black stanchions on the adjustable ends, requiring repainting. But for those black ends it would be an automatic choice.

As I already have all the under frame parts including buffers for one wagon, I’m wondering how difficult scratch building a body would be.

It amply proves the ‘5P’s maxim. (And I’m not talking Jubilees here!)

Agree with most of the above. A 44xx is  too early for me and other two are admirably catered for by Bachmann.

I suppose the early Wolverhampton 45xx with straight running plate step might be an option - 4517 lasted until 1963.

Agree about the Hawksworth County. Strange that Hornby, Bachmann, Accurascale and Rapido have all avoided it - the non- standard tender, perhaps?

A note on pallets for those loading their original-type Palbricks. The pallets would have been what were commonly known as ‘block-Enders’, two-way pallets with boarded top and bottoms as this would have been before pallet trucks and modern four-way ‘standard’ pallets.

The idea was that they were unloaded by forklift onto lorries for site delivery, which was the big failing in this design as agricultural-type forklifts didn’t really arrive till the 1970’s and in many cases the labour saved was only at the brickworks end. Too often the bricks were ‘handballed’ onto lorries no differently from off standard high opens, thus negating the whole concept!
 One of those innovations that hadn’t been fully thought-through, especially when Beeching drastically reduced the number of goods yards.

Away from a site with direct rail access  they were pretty pointless.

On 17/04/2022 at 11:35, Dunsignalling said:

The prototype photo on KR Models website is of a wagon with BR Morton pattern 4-shoe brakes, but I see the EP has the 8-shoe clasp type, as applied to wagons built from 1957. Are they doing both?

 

Also, I seem to recall some hint that there would be loads produced for these wagons, but can't find any confirmation of that. Anybody know?

 

John 

For anyone making their own brick loads, make sure the load top is below the level of the slots in the sides.

These were provided for the forklift tines to lift the plywood sides off the slotted ends.

They also stopped the brickworks overloading the wagon!

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I really don't believe that a coach last painted about 1950 would have looked that good sixteen years later, however much revarnishing it had received. The colour match on the cover strip also looks too accurate not to have been done concurrently with the rest of the body.

 

The picture suggests more to me that, whatever the "conventional wisdom", the shade applied by BR did change at some point to a darker one.

 

John

Of course, another explanation is that the green was the same, but vehicles that had previously been in crimson and cream (or crimson) received a slate grey undercoat prior to the BR coach green? Obviously those repainted from malachite wouldn’t require this.

Looking at SR Mk1 stock, there is a good image in Southern Vans & Coaches In Colour by Mike King of an almost new BSK taken in 1958 showing the livery closer to Hornby Southern Region green - the N15 next to it is clearly in authentic BR loco green, so fading of either coach or negative doesn’t come into it.

But as RFS’ photo above shows, after 1957 there clearly was a disparity and as modellers we can either ignore it or incorporate it.

Of course, correlation of coach numbers and colour shading may well prove or disprove the undercoating theory, but I for one, have better uses for my time!

…additional to my last, I also am of the opinion that the darker shade was necessary in the respraying of the blood and custard stock.

Having re sprayed a Hornby Blood and Custard Maunsell, I found I needed two coats of Precision ‘Electric Stock Green’ (approximating to Hornby SR Green)whereas the ‘official’ SR Coach Stock Green ( the shade approximating to Bachmann’s new Bulleids) did the job with one coat. Obviously this would be the same for respraying crimson stock as well.

On 28/10/2022 at 11:27, RFS said:

Also got my 2-set yesterday. What do people think about the colour? Seems still too dark to me. Here's a comparison in the best light I could manage.

 

 

From left to right - Hornby, new Bachmann, original Bachmann (late) and original Bachmann (early).

 

Difficult to find photos that show the real colours but this one from Mike Morant is significant. There's a very clean loco (it's a rail tour) and the 3rd coach appears to be dark green, but not the others. The Brunswick Green of the loco is useful as a comparison. 

 

And all the roofs are different too!

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/Bulleid-rebuilt-MNs/i-DGF6fJC/A

 

So what's the verdict?

Had a good look at the various examples on offer at Gaydon and I tend to agree with you.

As I’ve said before, I believe circa 1959- 60 the Southern Region settled on a darker shade of green. Compared to loco green on available colour photos it is clearly slightly darker, whereas previously it was definitely lighter.

By the last year of steam on the SR virtually all stock with the exception of some Maunsells were this darker shade.  The Maunsells were very close to the Hornby shade.

So, in my opinion, the colour chosen by Bachmann is incorrect for pre- 1959 stock and a decreasing number thereafter.

I’m sure the arguments about lighting, chromacity and fading will continue but after viewing hundreds of colour images over the last five years, this is my conclusion.

Edit: the last Maunsells in general service went in 1965, so clearly not in the last year!