Tortuga

Sorcery! How are those heaps staying up without support!? Witchcraft!

As mentioned in my layout thread (link above), I’ve been trying to use Templot to produce a tandem turnout leading into a crossover, but have run into problems. While I’ve managed to produce the tandem turnout, thus… (I know I still need to sort out the timbering at the left-hand end) …the crossover is throwing up problems: As shown I’ve some lost the timbering from the centre of the crossover turnout and (shown at the bottom of the first photo) the rails from the blind siding to the right of it. How do I get them back? Also, I’m keen (as it’s why I’ve opted for handbuilding track in the first place) to get timber / sleeper spacing correct: how do I use the shove timbers feature to manage this? There doesn’t seem to be an option to show the distance between timber/sleeper centrelines? Cheers in advance!

Following on from my discovery that all my tracklaying to date has been little more than a learning exercise, I’ve been having a play with Templot. Specifically the tandem point and crossover into (what I’m referring to as) the goods loop (although it’s a bit short to actually be used as a loop). I’ve managed to get the tandem point itself drawn up - just need to shove the timbers about a bit; especially under the crossings at the left hand end. I’m not an expert on how the LNWR timbered their points and most photos of Alsop and Hartington concentrate on the trains rather than the track, but from photos of the scissors crossover at Parsley Hay, it looks like long timbers were used up to nine timbers back from the crossing nose and that timbers were not interlaced. The left-hand point of the crossover is where I’ve hit problems. Somehow I’ve lost the rails that form the blind siding (bottom of above photo) and, as shown below, I’m missing the timbers under the centre section. I’ve also got more timber shoving / resizing to do here - anyone know how you can measure the timber spacing on Templot?

Apologies all. Heavy plant shuffling earth watching meant I only really got a chance to type up my third attempt this morning. I’ve added in those elements which Grovener’s table had but mine didn’t (apart from 13 locking 16) in red and crossed out the locking elements my attempt had, but which @Grovenorand @beast66606 have explained as not being required. Alsop Interlocking Table.xlsx Right. I’ve got an interlocking table. Now, how do I go about building the interlocking frame?

As per my edited post above, I’ve now manage to compare my third attempt and it agrees more closely with @Grovenor’s version (sorry @bécasse!). However, I’m now seeking clarification on some aspects. I will post my third attempt for completeness, but it’ll be later as I’m currently sat watching heavy plant shuffle earth around. Firstly, a general question; are point and FPL levers used to lock signals rather than other signal levers? I had levers 3, 7 and 13 all locking 24 and lever 23 locking 2 to prevent conflicting moves. My other queries refer directly to Grovenor’s table; 1) why is lever 7 (shunt to down line) used to lock 23 (down starter) instead of 24 (down home)? 2) lever 16 (turnout and fouling bar, Ashbourne end) is locked by 13 (up shunt from sidings). Won’t 16 being locked by 15 (turnout to sidings, Ashbourne end) be sufficient? 3) the two levers controlling turnouts to sidings (8 and 15) lock the other when one is reversed. Would the loop formed by 8, 11, 14 and 15 not be used to run around a train on the down line? Thanks for bearing with me and my novice questions!

OK, my second attempt only partly agreed with both @bécasse’s table and @Grovenor‘s table, so I’ve had a third go, which I’ll share when I’ve typed it up. EDIT: no I won’t. Another slow day on site has given me a chance to compare my third attempt with the tables of @bécasseand @Grovenorand that exercise means I’m seeking further clarification (see below) Thanks for all the help with this. I should perhaps have said (if it hasn’t become obvious!); I have absolutely zero experience of signalling and locking, so I’m learning a lot! Half the struggle (that might contribute toward making it seem a black art) is misunderstanding the terminology used and that some information isn’t immediately obvious to a complete outsider.

My thanks gentlemen. You both beat me to posting my own second attempt, so I’m going to spend any dead time on site tomorrow comparing your takes with mine to see how they compare!

I’d added the ‘locks when normal’ column to make it clear to me which lever locked which, but, as you say, duplicated this info in the ‘released by’ column and confused myself. I think I’ve muddled the locking of the FPL levers with the mechanical locking at the points - from what has been said, if the FPL lever is reversed, the mechanical lock on the ground is locking the point; correct? I think I’ve over complicated it by getting the impression that everything has to lock everything else. I realise I’ve muddled up 6 and 7 - I reread your earlier post - and I’ve got them the wrong way round. I’ll give it another go, taking the guidance provided into account: are there any other columns needed? I don’t think I need a ‘locks both ways’ one?

Thanks @Michael Hodgson for explaining those two points; you’re explanation for locking the homes against each other makes perfect sense now - it hadn’t occurred to me (but should have) that a train might overrun the loop. I can’t see that 17 would lock one point when normal and the other when reversed as both would need to be locked at the same time, so I assume the “more usual situation” of 17 being reversed to lock the points is more likely? Out of curiosity, is there a particular reason for the ‘lever reversed = locked’ being more common? Was (is?) it to act as a visual reminder to the signalman that the FPL is ‘on’?

Wouldn’t that mean the homes could be cleared if the points were set for their diverging routes though? I thought an FPL was reversed to unlock the point, the point would then be reversed, then the FPL would be returned to normal in order to lock the point in its new position? Or have I got that completely backward? I might’ve completely misunderstood your meaning here: do you mean at exactly the same time or that one train can’t enter in one direction while another is already in the station facing the other way? I’m confused because Alsop was the crossover point for the daily trip workings and (allegedly) in the final years of the weekly mineral working from Alsop Moor Quarry, the length of the mineral train meant it had to “shuffle” forward once the passenger service had entered the down platform in order to let the passenger train depart!

Alsop Interlocking Table.xlsxRight. I’ve sorted an Excel version of the locking table. I’ve probably missed columns I should have and included columns I shouldn’t, but hopefully it’ll be clearer to those of you who are more used to this stuff than me! Please feel free to poke it around and amend as necessary! I’ve not included any of the changes suggested so far in case my previous post inadvertently introduced confusion Alsop Interlocking Table.xlsx

By the beginning of May I’d made a touch more progress: Both turnouts fully timbered and even some plain track sleepers in place! The plain track is C&L 60’ track panels, which gives me the correct sleeper spacing without having to hand build ALL the track, although the molded chair and key detail is not as crisp as that of the individual chairs used in the construction of the points... I’d even sorted out my error (did anyone spot it?) - the goods loop is now the correct 10’ spacing (188” track centre to track centre) from the down running line - which means in the intervening time between this photo and the last, I’d had to remove all the timbering I’d done previously. Oh well. Up until last week I’d only got a little further than this, managing to fix the straight stock rail in place along the down side of the goods loop into the blind siding. Then two things happened: Firstly a closer look at photographs of Alsop revealed the point work (and apparently the goods siding, goods loop and blind siding) to all be laid with 4-bolt chairs. Curses! Guess who’s used 3-bolt ones? Oh well. To save me having to take it all up again, guess I’ll just invoke Rule 1 and ignore it. Who looks at track that closely anyway? At least the sleeper spacing is correct, right? Right? Nope. Second thing was a chance reading of a post on the handbuilding track section of the forum; specifically that 00 C&L templates are not to the correct sleeper spacing. Honestly. I could’ve cried.

Thanks once again to everyone who helped me better understand Alsop-en-le-Dale’s signalling diagram. If you haven’t guessed, my eventual aim is to build and operate a model of this station as prototypically as I can, including fully interlocking the points and signals. While construction of the layout is temporarily on hold (as explained in my layout thread) Todays slack time on site has been spent trying to devise a locking table. With reference to what has already been said on this topic (particularly by @The Stationmaster), here’s what I’ve come up with so far: am I on the right track? (please refer to the linked signalling diagram https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php?id= 1057 as it seems to be the most complete) Lever 1: released by 2 and 3 (both when reversed Lever 2: locks 1 when normal, locks 10 and 23 and releases 1 when reversed. Lever 3: locks 1 when normal, locks 10 and 24 and releases 1 when reversed and is released when 16 is reversed. Lever 6: locks 7, 12 and 24 when reversed and is released when 8 is reversed. Lever 7: locks 3, 8, 15, 16 and 24 when reversed. Lever 8: locks 6 and 11 when normal and 24 when reversed. Lever 9: locks 10. Lever 10: locks 23 when normal and 2 when reversed. Is released when 9 is reversed. Lever 11: locks 6 and 12 when normal, 8 when reversed and is released when 8 is reversed. Lever 12: locks 6 when reversed and is released when 11 is reversed. Lever 13: locks 3, 16 and 24 when reversed and is released when 14 is reversed. Lever 14: locks 13 when normal, 15 when reversed and is released when 15 is reversed. Lever 15: locks 14 when normal, 16 when reversed and is released when 17 is reversed. Lever 16: locks 3 when normal, 13 and 24 when reversed and is released when 17 is reversed. Lever 17: locks both 15 and 16 when normal. Lever 23: locks 25 when normal, 8, 15 and 16 when reversed and is released when 10 is reversed. Lever 24: locks 25 when normal and 8,15 and 16 when reversed. Lever 25: is released when 23 and 24 are reversed. Hope that’s clear enough! If not I’ll need some advice on how to share an Excel file...

@RailWestIf only I’d found that site earlier, it would’ve saved a bit of supposition! Looks like that answers the question of the “missing” 4 lever and given the clearance bars are labelled the same as turnouts 10 and 16, I guess they’re operated from the same lever as you mentioned earlier. The diagram also confirms that lever 17 operated both facing point locks for 15 and 16. Thank you all for all your help: I’m certain I’ll need further help once I get further into building my layout!

See, I’d assumed exactly the opposite! I thought a train on the up line would detach wagons and engine from the front of the train, run forward of 16, then set back into the yard via 15/14, while a train on the down line would detach the engine, run around via the up line, detach wagons from the rear of the train, set back past 15 then propel into the yard. Now 6 and 7 and the lack of signal at 15 make more sense! A down train would stop alongside the platform, detach the engine, run round via the up line, couple up to the rear, detach wagons from the rear and set back into the goods loop via 8 and 11 being authorised by 6. Once the wagons were in the yard, 12 would allow access to the down line, then 7 would permit setting back beyond 16 before the engine ran round to the front of the train again: does that sound right? Still not 100% sure how it’d work for an up train though...

If by running dummy, you mean a ground signal, then so would I!

Thanks for your replies gentlemen; they’ve helped my improve / confirm my understanding. Please bear with me while I seek clarity on a couple of points Is there a difference between a fouling bar and a clearance bar or is it just different terminology for the same thing? I understood a fouling bar to be a length of metal that lay against the inside of one rail and, when depressed by the wheels of a train/engine, prevented other levers in the signal box being pulled, thus preventing collisions at fouling points on the track layout. I didn’t appreciate they had their own lever? How did they work? Can you clarify why it isn’t logical for lever 4 to work both fouling/clearance bars? Or am I being thick (wouldn’t be the first time)? Would one half of the crossover be interlocked with the other somehow in that case? Logically there’s no point in being able to switch one turnout to a diverging route while the other is set straight, so am I right to assume that both the turnout levers would need reversing to allow the relevant signal levers to be reversed?

Thanks for clearing that up @RailWest! That makes perfect sense now I think about it, but I swear I’d not come across yellow ground signals before - I’m sure my “Railway Signalling and Track Plans” doesn’t mention them... EDIT: tell a lie. It does; on page 55, in the section on ground signals strangely enough. In fact, it also states how they should be read when there is more than one on a post… See I have all these resources, just never to hand when I have time to ask the questions…

@Poor Old Bruceon page 5, drawing S6 to be precise. Don’t know why my link didn’t work; it does for me... Does that mean they can be treated like distant signals? As in can be passed when ‘on’ as long as the driver is prepared to stop at the next signal? Oddly, the only photo I’ve seen of them dates from 1961 and shows 12 (at least) to be (I think!) a standard BR ground signal - unfortunately the photographer was behind the signal so you can’t see the disc! More oddly, 6 and 7 definitely were LNWR types. So if I understand you correctly, 7 would control setting back along the down main, while 6 would control setting back into the goods loop?

Since I’m having a slow day on site, I’m going to pick the brains of RMWeb’s collective signalling expertise. Below is a link to the Signalling Railway Society’s diagram of the signalling layout at Alsop-en-le-Dale on the former LNWR Buxton to Ashbourne Line in Derbyshire, which is the basis for my layout. https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M154.gif I’d like to think I’ve got a rough understanding of signalling and railway operation in general terms, but I know that specific locations have their own specific quirks, so I’m seeking clarification with regard to the signalling and operation of this station. 1) the diagram indicates levers 5 and 18 through to 22 are spares, but the diagram has no lever number 4: what could be the reason for this? 2) do the two short lines to the right of 10 on the up line and to the left of 15 on the down line represent fouling bars? 3) would facing point lock 17 lock both 15 and 16? If that is the case, would there be two physical locking mechanisms on the stretcher bars for 15 and 16 with both being operated by a single lever? 4) since points 8 and 11 and points 14 and 15 are effectively crossovers, is there any reason why they would be operated by separate levers? 5) discs 6 and 7 presumably govern shunting movements on the down line and I’m guessing one is for movements into the siding while the other is along the down line itself, but which is for which? 6) ground signals 12 and 13 have a ‘Y’ under them; what does this signify? (From photos, neither appears to be a disc signal in the same way as 6 and 7). Also, what movements would they govern? 7) finally (for now!) how would trains arriving from either direction, drop off or collect wagons from the goods yard? I know there were no special rules regarding the yard being served by trains travelling in one direction only, but the loop formed by points 8, 11, 14 and 15 isn’t huge and the blind siding doesn’t look to have been long enough to serve as a headshunt. Would the loop formed by the up and down lines have been used to run around goods trains? Sorry about all those questions - there didn’t seem to be so many when I was pondering them in my head! Thanks for the help in advance! Nik

Thank you gentlemen for all your advice and guidance. I think my course of action is now clear. Since I am a tight-fisted Yorkshire lad at heart, I’ll take the route of least expenditure and get hold of a set of 00-SF roller gauges and build my point work to 00-SF, but stick with 16.5mm flexi-track for the plain track - I’ve already got some C&L flexi-track and I intend to use 00/H0 PECO Code 75 flexi-track and points in the fiddle yards as I have some left from previous layout attempts. I’ll order the gauges and, since I’ve already laid two kits-worth of turnout timbers, some more timbers as well (plus some 4-bolt chairs - clearer prototype trackwork photographs having caused the discovery that I’d ordered kits with the wrong chairs). While I wait for those, I can wrestle with Templot to produce suitable templates.

Hmm. That does look good. And not noticeable - just like the gauge widening on curves isn’t noticeable on the real thing either... I suppose I’m not going to be looking down on the track or along it’s length the majority of the time, so it’ll be even less obvious... Plus £14.40 vs £196.60...

@Stephen Freeman and @DungrangeThanks for clearing that up. I feel like a right muppet for having to ask these questions - it like I decided to run through a nettle patch barefoot! Looks like I either need to purchase some new crossing assemblies or some 4F (00SF) roller gauges - can I live with a 0.3mm narrower track gauge or with a 0.25mm wider crossing gap?

I’m working at Templot! I managed to produce a crossover between a running line and a siding last night, so I’m getting there! Stupid I know, but I’m worried I’ll either mess up the transition between 16.5mm to 16.2mm gauge and back and/or that 0.3mm narrowing will be glaringly obvious once I’ve finished. Kind of a “I-need-to-fully-model-the-back-of-this-building-even-though-it’s-hard-up-against-the-backscene-and-no-one-will-know-otherwise” situation, I’m afraid!

Thanks! Just a couple of queries if I may? 1) is it 4F (00SF) which has a track gauge of 16.2mm through the turnout, but 16.5mm elsewhere? I keep getting lost with the different names for the various scale/gauge combinations! 2) could you elaborate on what you mean by “checkrail gauge and gauges”? I’d assumed roller gauges or a 3-way gauge were used to set the checkrail gap and I’m afraid you’ve lost me with the “crossing vee gauge strip”! Apologies for being so thick! 3) if I choose not to go down the 4F (00SF) route (I don’t want to go down the EM route!), from what you’re saying, I’ll have to go for a wider crossing gap? Thanks for confirming about the 00 C&L templates by the way; I’d found out from elsewhere they don’t have the correct sleeper spacing - after finally laying all the point timbers out and permanently fixing one stock rail!