Crimson Rambler

Came across this photo the other day in an old BRJ and knowing of the recent discussion on Midland refrigerated meat wagons wondered if it might be of interest. I think it may have been taken on the London Extension possibly Harpenden but that could be complete rubbish. The engine is a Class M 0-6-0 - not easy to identify which batch although certain ones can be eliminated. It dates (probably) from after 1896 but before 1903 when the lamp codes changed. The photo is part of RJE's collection and he reckoned there were seventeen vans in the train. Crimson Rambler

Don't know if it is of any interest but a onetime fellow member of the MRS who was heavily into Midland rolling stock referred to the ribbed buffers - present in both the latest photos as 'Kirtley buffers'. He had been in regular communication with Ralph Lacey and RJE discussing varous matters before the society was formed and his particular interest was waggons. Crimson Rambler

In Jack Braithewaite's book on Johnson locomotives there is a picture of a Class H 0-6-0 running through Matlock Bath taken pre-1903 (but not long!). Appearing is a part view of the goods shed taken from the opposite direction. Crimson Rambler

Dundee was famous for jam and marmalade manufacture and its jute mills for producing sacking, all of which would have been consumed in the industrial areas of the rest of Britain. Crimson Rambler

Some barrels alongside Midland No. 6 class (or Class C) 0-4-4T No. 137 photographed alongside the Cannon Brewery, Fulham. The engine, built in 1875 was shedded at Kentish Town for at least twenty years, but my guess is that this view dates from the early to mid 1880s. Crimson Rambler

Fascinating coaling stage drawing - but where is the chimney for the fireplace in the workmen's hut? Crimson Rambler

What no D.299 wagons - hopefully there was at least one! Did the fireman get so engrossed with the filming that he forgot to raise the scoop before the tank overflowed? Poor platelayers! Excellent bit of film though - thank you for posting it. Crimson Rambler

I like the shot of the backwards running 780 class 0-4-4T with the fireman perched on the cab lower side panel. It's a pose seen in photos of engines at rest but presumably secure enough for venturing out on the main line. The M&GN No. 44 is indeed a delight - as dear Jack Braithwaite might have said - such elegance, pity though about the extended smokebox and the awful chimney! Crimson Lake

Sorry I am unable to put in a professional link but if you go to Youtube and type in as a title - Early-Mid 20th Century locomotives, Trains Decade 1920's - you see initially some Great Western engines but then it goes to the Midland division of the LMS. Included in this section are some gems such as moving shots of Kirtley 0-6-0s, 0-4-4Ts and also 2-4-0s but the latter are inside framed version. Enjoy! Crimson Rambler

A small correction if I may - in a post of 24th August 2020 I stated that Bernard Laycock was not a founder member of the S7 Group. That is not correct – although I was sort of half right! He was present at the inaugural meeting but resigned not long afterwards. After a lapse of many years he later re-joined. In case some of you might be interested below is the flyer Ken Cottle wrote proposing a S7 society - to which one RJE has added a comment to say that it now exists. Crimson Rambler

It's certainly a very attractive idea - and I'm very strongly drawn to it. But perhaps not an exact replica I think more something in the spirit of it - rather like the layout is inspired by Sharnbrook rather than a model of it! However, first things first, I have to put the boiler book to bed. Crimson Rambler

Excellent Stephen - many thanks. Crimson Rambler

Been thinking a bit more about unlined/brown Midland goods engines but I'm reluctant to post my random thoughts on this forum as it has nothing really to do with wagons - Midland Railway Company is perhaps a more appropriate home, while hopefully others will also have observations to make. I seem to recall a discussion on RMweb about how barrels were carried in wagons - whether upright or on their 'sides'. Here are a couple of views shewing them standing upright and seemingly loose loaded with no visible packing or restraint:- The goods train they form part of is on the down goods line passing through Wellingborough in September 1898. The scenes are from clearing up after the unfortunate accident that occurred in the evening of the 2nd September when O.554 7ft 4-4-0 No 1743 was derailed by a trolley in the 4ft. I suspect the barrels are empty and being worked back to Burton. Not knowing very much about wagons I have posted them in hope of learning more. Hopefully there are better quality prints in circulation to aid this. The one lettered powder van appears intriguing, while there are a couple of NSR owned wagons heading home accompanied by a number of Staffordshire based PO wagons. Coke raves and dumb buffers were in fashion in 1898 yet the Anglo-Caucasian Oil Company's tank wagon would not have been out of place fifty years later. Two questions if I may - what are colliery wagons doing with raves - was it a cheap way to increase the carrying capacity if combined with larger journals? Secondly can any kind person please advise on the colours of the PO wagons? Thanks in anticipation. Crimson Rambler

Thank you Compound2632 for the 25ins plan reference. It does seem to tie in, especially because Goslin states the Radlett end crossovers were introduced in 1913 and this was followed by the closure of Elstree South signal box. Please also find a close up of the train from the tender to the box - I would be very pleased if you are identify any of them. I forgot to acknowledge Bill Bedford's comment on the spoil in the goods yard - that was most helpful. The lack of lining on some goods engines - when did this practice start and when did it end? Was it universally applied or was 'locality or engine-duty based'? There is well known picture of sister engine No 1203, also shedded at Wellingborough and BP built, taken 15th June 1901 and it too has no lining but it does have MR on the tender side. Weatherburn modified the livery of engines at Kentish Town, other sheds did something similar albeit to a lesser degree. Most, but not all Midland points at this period used interlaced sleepers with through timbers at the crossing and switch, but there are instances of contemporary dated photos where the points were laid throughout on timbers. Were district staff simply allowed more autonomy that might be considered appropriate late? Crimson Rambler

Compound 2632 - please find the opposite end below:- Unfortunately while this is a large print it is a bit dark whereas a postcard print I have is much better in this respect. Let me know if you would like the latter scanned. David - my first thought were that it was say 1892/3 - not least because of the absence of MR on the tender side. But there are one or two Spinners photographed at St Pancras or KT with no lettering but fenders so I did some more delving:- The Midland had been busy during the '80s and '90s quadrupling its line into London. In 1893 track plan the coal yard is the wrong way round, whereas in the 1914 plan below, produced after the removal of the south signal box it is the same way as the the photo. Gough reports that the quadrupling through Elstree came into operation in the last few days of June 1895. I had registered the presence of the salt glazed pipes but their presence is perhaps of greater significance. Are they required for the revised coal yard? If they are destined for Midland use rather than for a local builder then the date could be summer/autumn 1895 and it would possibly account for the piles behind the wagons - which don't all look like coal to me. Crimson Rambler

Another coal train for Compound2632 - presented as relaxation from things Great Western! This time its No. 1217 a Beyer Peacock built Class B 0-6-0 heading south through Elstree on the up slow line. It is one of the fifty or so of this class that lived at Wellingborough around the end of the nineteenth century. The photo was taken from the bridge that separated the coal yard from the goods yard and marked the northern limit of the platforms. It's a view packed with nostalgia for me as I used to watch 8Fs and 9Fs from the same vantage point going to and from school - but never saw anything as pretty as this 0-6-0! Dating this view is more problematic and I would welcome your thoughts - the best I can do is between late summer 1895 and early 1900. It cannot be later because the tender has not yet been rebuilt and the last ones were done to an order issued in January 1900. The track layout appears to be the one adopted when the slow lines were brought into use in June 1895. The engine has been re-boilered and given 18ins cylinders - but this was in 1891 - so no use there - although out of interest it seems to have acquired a 'one piece' chimney but retained its Roscoe lubricator and the older pattern Furness lubricator. I would be grateful if anyone is able to advise on any of the PO wagons. The second view apart from illustrating the chimney tops of my maternal grandparents' house, gives a bit more of the coal yard. Nearly all of the wagons are Midland owned and to my untutored eye, appear to be D299. I like the low sided engineering wagon pushed up against the nearer stop block and being used what seems to be as a rubbish receptacle. Is the wagon next to it on the adjoining road one of the D299s with the additional central ironwork? Mentioning track reminds me that both slow lines are laid in inside keyed track with twelve and thirteen sleepers per rail. The use in some lengths of twelve sleepers to a 30ft rail appears to have been a bit of a London Extension specialty. It may also be seen in some sections of 85lb outside key rails. A Johnson introduced a 36ft 85lb inside key rail not long before he retired - they are not that common but presumably the rail with thirteen sleepers is is one of those. His successor went back to 30ft and 36ft did not reappear until 100lb rail was introduced. The fast lines are in 85lbs outside key - 30ft rails with eleven sleepers. Crimson Rambler

Moi - do a thing like that? Never!! Crimson Rambler

SRO - Staffordshire Record Office - Stafford. Crimson Rambler

Appearing below are two graphs drawing from the builders' dates for Midland 0-6-0s from 1852 to 1902. The info was taken from Stephen Summerson's books but my addition is not guaranteed! It is based on what I think are two not unreasonable assumptions - that the number of locomotives in service was (i) reflective of the traffic requirements even though SWJ often complained of too high a percentage were in steam/day and (ii) engines were ordered and delivered to match the anticipated traffic development - albeit deliveries were often late. Indeed the US engines were prompted by a strike. During the 1870s there was a slump following the Franco-Prussian War - did this help provide the initial impetus for the Midland to try and rid itself of PO wagons only to find soon afterwards traffic so took off that it had to retain more of them for longer than planned? In view of this observation I consulted Tavender:- At this point I have probably said enough and leave it to others. Just a slight point if I may - Midland 30ft rails - inside and outside key - normally had eleven sleepers per length. Sometimes an extra one would be added, my suspicion is that the rail with ten sleepers is a short one introduced to fit the point geometry. Certainly other rails had the standard eleven. Crimson Rambler

l find this a fascinating photo - one of the Midland's Baldwin 2-6-0s heading north on the down goods line at Welsh Harp with a train of empty coal wagons. This view can be dated to within a narrow window extending from late 1899 until say mid 1902. The sensible wisdom is that part of the huge construction of D299 wagons was to replace bought up private owner wagons - something which makes a lot of sense - and by the time this photo was taken D299 production was too all intents complete - yet four of the first five wagons appear to be ex-PO wagons purchased by the Midland, while the first six are dumb buffered. I expect the loco crew were pleased about that. Another point of interest is that in 1884 the Midland introduced outside keyed track firstly with 85lbs rail followed by 100lbs in 1896 but here the down fast passenger line - the next but one to the engine - is laid with inside key chairs. Crimson Rambler

Please forgive me David but I would like to make a slight correction – Bob Essery was converted to S7 a little earlier. I visited him in his home which was then in Solihul in early 1989 (or late 1988) with a 33mm gauge point I had made. He placed an O gauge wheel set on it. With one wheel on the crossing nose the other ran on the back of the check rail – he was convinced. When I reminded him, I had tried to convert him to S7 at the previous Manchester Show he told me I was a rotten salesman! At that time S7 was quite low key and very much a niche gauge. I knew Bob Essery as a fellow MRS member and had seen his input into the Scalefour Society – he was the person needed to popularize S7 – hence the visit. Once converted to S7 the ScaleSeven Group was soon set up with the inaugural meeting comprising about 24 of us held at Ken Cottle’s house in Luton – RJE became member No 1, Ken is member No 2 and Dick Ganderton No. 3. Unfortunately Bernard Laycock another important S7 pioneer didn’t join. In a re-run of Heckmondwyke and S4, RJE decided to build a large S7 layout – Dewsbury – I helped with the track while Ken built the baseboards. It was not long after we had started that I met John Horton – a member of the LMSS who RJE had enlisted to help. At the time JH was trying to build an Ivatt class 4 2-6-0 (Doodlebug) in gauge O and had encountered the problems with a narrower than scale gauge. He quickly became a convert. He loaned me a book by Brian Reed about Crewe works. In it was an instruction from Ramsbottom to the men – work to dimensions. This became our mantra and our approach to S7 - depart from the prototype as little as possible. JH built a number of locomotive frames on this principle for RJE and, in conjunction with gauge widening they worked without problems - refer to MRJ No. 60. With Dewsbury under way, David was subjected to the Chinese water treatment by JH and myself until he saw the light. Three-throws not withstanding I don’t think he regrets the change!

Train set looking good David Ah Bedford for the coaling stage - you know it makes sense to relocate the whole layout further south! Will ring in the week, re cigars and a chat. Crimson Rambler

I believe that many of the South Wales coal wagons used in the export trade that had sprung buffers one end and dumb the other (1860s, 1870s) had the couplings arranged so that they would only readily couple sprung end to dumb end. Crimson Rambler

To clarify John-Miles observations, by steam circuit, I meant the pathway taken by the steam from the boiler water/steam interface to the point where it enters the cylinder and then from where it leaves the cylinder until it has escaped from the blast-pipe. Perhaps it’s not a good choice of word but my defence is that Chapelon used it and he was quite a good locomotive engineer! Thus, from this definition the regulator is included. I think reasonably because we can assume an engine trying to produce maximum effort in any particular cut-off, at speed, will have full regulator. Hence also my comment about the port openings being more or less the same in the two engines. As you mention smaller diameter pipes lead to higher friction losses. It is possible to equate the loss caused by bends etc as an ‘equivalent’ length of straight pipe that is added to the actual length to obtain the total loss. Since both engines were 4-4-0s of similar size, their steam circuits will had more or less the same actual length so we can gain a good approximation of their relative performance at each discrete section in their steam circuits simply by comparing the pipe diameters. If the same flow rate is attempted in two pipes of different diameter the relative pressure drops will be in the ratio of their diameters raised to a power commonly taken as 4.75. Thus a 5-inch pipe at the same steam flow will have a pressure drop that is only around one-third that experienced in a 4-inch pipe. Crimson Rambler

The grate area of the boiler carried by the LYR class 28 was 18.75sq ft, so at 40ihp/sq ft that gives 750 horsepower just making the engines Class 3 for power. The Great Eastern, for example, built a couple of powerful 0-6-0 classes - J19 and J20. On Nationalization the former was class 4F and the other 6F. In 1953 both were reclassified 5F which I guess was when BR introduced its modified system - or were there complaints from the operating people? Crimson Rambler