WisTramwayMan

23 hours ago, jcredfer said:

 

With a measured response like that, you just have to be British.

 

Julian

 

Indeed I am. Having dealt with collection quality model cars / trains / planes over many years the first thing I normally do when confronted with a new casting I've not seen before is try to work out where it is safe to hold it and extract it from the packaging without damaging or, worse, destroying it. One thing I have said for a long time is that with delicate models the manufacturer should put a slip in the top of the box advising the buyer of the best way of extracting it without damage. Probably one of worst I've had to date, surprisingly given the overall size and 1:72 scale, was a Corgi ASV Wellington many years ago - absolutely festooned with radar aerials just where you'd normally grip it to extract it from the packaging, and oh gawd where do I hold that to extract it safely ? These days, with model railways, my preference is to handle diesels - by and large they've got nice flat sides (avoiding any etched parts / windows) and haven't got delicate wires between loco and tender to look out for (or in the case of the Heljan Garratt, magnets holding the drive units each end, where the magnets could do with being a tad stronger...).

But the new Rocket appears to trump all of these. It'd be interesting to know what percentage of original sales are returned for rectification (or in a few cases for a refund) as faulty. Not that we'll ever know. Pity they couldn't have used the little white plug for the tender connection; much as I hate it, it would appear to be better, from what people are saying, than how it's been done here.

I'll be totally honest; reading some of the stories above regarding the fragility and potential issues with this model I'm beginning to wonder whether I want one at all, and if Hattonsgate didn't do me a favour. My thanks though to members who have done their to assist me in locating an available model; it's much appreciated. For now, I have located and ordered a R3810, hopefully this time will not be disappointed and avoid some of the issues that it would appear many purchasers are experiencing.

12 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

I think you are wrong Black Hat.  From what I have seen, if you purchase something from their second hand stock, it disappears from the website almost immediately*.  This means their stock system is working in real time - which is what I would expect from an organisation with their turn-over.

 

This in turn means they have taken more Rocket orders than they could guarantee from their known allocation - probably in the hope/expectation that they would get more because they are a major Hornby outlet.  No doubt in the past tis has happened.  Not this time.

 

I am afraid my opinion of Hattons has degraded over the last couple of years.  They did not inform customers that their Bachmann pre-orders would not be satisfied when they fell out with Bachmann.  This nearly left me without a model I had had on order for years.  Now it seems they have confirmed pre-orders beyond what they could guarantee.  Further by not warning customers that they might be on a waiting list for R3809, they have stopped customers from ordering R3810 as a second best - and this model now appears to be fully sold out at most major outlets.

 

A review of their sales practices and their customer communications would seem to be in order from my perspective.

 

*and I am usually making my purchases outside normal business hours.

Very briefly - because this doesn't directly concern Rocket - I can confirm that if you order new items from the Hattons website then the stock level updates immediately - order an item with less than 10, complete it, go back and re-check the level it will have already updated.

As concerns Bachmann, I had the same issue too. Enquiries to Hattons at the time as to what was happening was met by either being told it would be available later the same week or the following week. As everyone knows, it never was. Eventually I was advised by someone with knowledge of Hattons to switch my orders elsewhere, this was done apart from one special edition on order for a fair time that had sold out. By talking directly to Bachmann, however, they advised that further stock originally allocated to Hattons may become available elsewhere, and thanks to their advice I managed to obtain one.

Back to Rocket - very interested to see people's comments - seem to back up my preconceptions of what it would be, absolute tiny jewel but very fiddly to assemble, and fragile. Definitely a special days loco than one for everyday usage.

2 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

I've had this and similar problems happen to me numerous times when trying to order from Hattons. You're not the only one experiencing problems with them. I've given up with hattons, their product database seems like a total mess as they've quite often sold me products they don't actually have in stock. This and also not having enough to fulfil pre orders had made me take my business elsewhere.

 

A lot of places have sold out on pre order of the Rocket, which means for a lot of people trying to source one now that hattons have pulled this on them is going to be quite difficult. If Hornby are saying Hattons always knew how many they were going to get then is it a case of Hattons overselling and expecting to be sent more from Hornby? 

See my earlier post but in a word - yes - as I read it they oversold their allocation and took orders versus further stock that was never confirmed by Hornby (despite what Hatton's letter to customers implied).

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

 

 

The lesson isn't particulary new, it has always been their for retailers (I can remember stories for Wrenn and Lima limited editions). Ultimately it is Hornby who could not have profitted enough from the popularity of the model. A known weakness of their strategy which they refuse to change.

The shame is - and wouldn't have resulted in annoyed customers - that they didn't draw the line on confirming and accepting orders once the confirmed allocation had been reached and then invited "expressions of interest" (I thing the phrase is) which would be followed up in order should any further stock be realised. Totally fair, no annoyed customers, everyone knows where they stand. How it's been done it's the customer that loses out.

1 hour ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Lucky you. I got this:

 

Good afternoon,

We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809). This means that we are oversold on this product and regrettably have had to cancel your order. We are unable to source any further stock at the moment, due to the model being sold out with the supplier. 

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience and disappointment this may cause. 

Your order has been cancelled so no payment will be taken and there is nothing required from your end. This will not affect any other orders or outstanding pre-orders you currently have with us.

Kind regards,

Hattons Model Railways 

 

Emotiveless summary:

 

Order was placed in early January with Hattons - could have been Kernow, Derails, Rails of Sheffield but went with Hattons, who I've used for many years. Order was confirmed and accepted.

 

At the nub of it is - and this is in writing from Hattons and verbally from Hornby Customer Services:

 

Hattons - we didn't get what we were supposed to. Hornby - yes you did.

 

So the dispute is over the amount that it was confirmed to Hattons they would receive. At least, on the face of it.

 

Update - from Hattons:

Did Hattons receive their full allocation of Hornby R3809?

Yes. Every retailer had an initial allocation of models available to them, whether they accepted the full amount was up to the retailer. We also later placed an additional order for further R3809 sets. Ultimately these models have proved extremely popular not only with ourselves but Hornby and other retailers as well and it was not possible to secure this additional order.

So - end of story it would appear - order was placed on 8/1 - Hattons oversold their confirmed allocation and took further orders versus a hoped for further allocation that was never confirmed to them or materialised. A lesson for the future.

48 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

Hi Wistramwayman, 

 

I am sorry that we are unable to fulfil your order for the R3890. As you know, this has been a very popular item, and I can assure you that we have done everything we could to try to secure more stock. 

 

Although it won’t change the issue of your cancelled pre-order, I wanted to clarify a few of the points you have made in your post below.

 

Did Hattons receive their full allocation of Hornby R3809?

Yes. Every retailer had an initial allocation of models available to them, whether they accepted the full amount was up to the retailer. We also later placed an additional order for further R3809 sets. Ultimately these models have proved extremely popular not only with ourselves but Hornby and other retailers as well and it was not possible to secure this additional order.

 

Is it a breach of contract for Hattons to cancel pre-orders due to insufficient stock?

No. The order is only deemed to be accepted when we dispatch the goods to you. This is part of our standard Terms and conditions.

 

Again, I do apologise that we have let you down on this occasion. 

 

Dave

So - the problem was that Hattons DID oversell -v- their initial allocation. A shame that the line was not drawn once this initial qty was sold, at least it would have given now-let down customers the chance to pre-order it elsewhere.

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

When the Peckett first appeared our three local shops ended up swapping stock around to fulfill their orders as they got mostly one type each rather than as their orders, that’s from the shop owner. Full marks to the little shops though and to holding back stock hidden at one that had spare stock for the regulars as the prices went daft on eBay. 
Unfortunately it’s the eBay prospectors who’ve really caused the problem buying stuff they don’t want for quick profits. 

Interesting, considering previous correspondence.....

2 hours ago, aaron3820 said:

Just received an email from Hattons saying the order for my Rocket has been processed and my card charged. Going off previous delivery times I may have it by next Friday. 
 

Exciting times!

Lucky you. I got this:

Good afternoon,

We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809). This means that we are oversold on this product and regrettably have had to cancel your order. We are unable to source any further stock at the moment, due to the model being sold out with the supplier. 

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience and disappointment this may cause. 

Your order has been cancelled so no payment will be taken and there is nothing required from your end. This will not affect any other orders or outstanding pre-orders you currently have with us.

Kind regards,

Hattons Model Railways 

Emotiveless summary:

Order was placed in early January with Hattons - could have been Kernow, Derails, Rails of Sheffield but went with Hattons, who I've used for many years. Order was confirmed and accepted.

At the nub of it is - and this is in writing from Hattons and verbally from Hornby Customer Services:

Hattons - we didn't get what we were supposed to. Hornby - yes you did.

So the dispute is over the amount that it was confirmed to Hattons they would receive. At least, on the face of it.

13 minutes ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Glad you received yours ! For those of you who placed your orders for R3809 with Hattons, and had it confirmed, prepare for the possibility of being shafted. Received this from them a few minutes ago:

 

Good afternoon,

We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809). This means that we are oversold on this product and regrettably have had to cancel your order. We are unable to source any further stock at the moment, due to the model being sold out with the supplier. 

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience and disappointment this may cause. 

Your order has been cancelled so no payment will be taken and there is nothing required from your end. This will not affect any other orders or outstanding pre-orders you currently have with us.

Kind regards,

 

Hattons Model Railways 

 

So some of those who played the game, have dealt with Hattons for many years, now miss out. Far from satisfactory. Obviously apart from their own brands there is no NEED to buy stuff from Hattons, and I should imagine that other retailers (in particular one the other side of the Pennines) would be delighted to have them.

 

Excuse is they were sent less than expected by Hornby. And excuse it is - if you are given an allocation then that is what you should get. If you do not get your allocation, they should be giving Hornby hell. And if you didn't get your allocation, then who did ?

 

It'd be interesting to know whether Hattons roll over with their tummy in the air or make a fight of it. I assume they have written correspondence with Hornby as to how many to expect. Unless, or course, QA checks at Hornby have revealed problems, resulting in rejections, and hence the run is depleted. Not that we'll ever know.

 

The annoying bit is that at the time I could have placed elsewhere, but no, dealt with Hattons for years so go with them. 

 

Like an elephant, I will remember this. Perhaps Hattons should look at the prices people are selling these for on the secondary market, and credit let down customers who, not let it be forgotten, had A CONFIRMED, ACCEPTED PRE-ORDER.

 

Is this breach of contract ?

 

Further to the above, have just spoken to Hornby Hobbies and they are saying that Hattons knew EXACTLY what they were getting, as soon as they placed their preorder, and THAT IS WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE GOT.

So - the 2 views - Hattons - we have not got what we due from Hornby.

Hornby - Hattons would have got exactly what they preordered.

Someone is twisting facts.....

On 22/02/2020 at 21:23, amwells said:

Received mine today and what a model! Yes, I’ve already managed to damage the wires between loco and tender and will fix them again in due course, but otherwise what a lovely set. would love to weight the front of the tender slightly, will investigate in due course!
 

Nice touch coming in a brown cardboard outer like old Triang locos. 

Glad you received yours ! For those of you who placed your orders for R3809 with Hattons, and had it confirmed, prepare for the possibility of being shafted. Received this from them a few minutes ago:

Good afternoon,

We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809). This means that we are oversold on this product and regrettably have had to cancel your order. We are unable to source any further stock at the moment, due to the model being sold out with the supplier. 

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience and disappointment this may cause. 

Your order has been cancelled so no payment will be taken and there is nothing required from your end. This will not affect any other orders or outstanding pre-orders you currently have with us.

Kind regards,

Hattons Model Railways 

So some of those who played the game, have dealt with Hattons for many years, now miss out. Far from satisfactory. Obviously apart from their own brands there is no NEED to buy stuff from Hattons, and I should imagine that other retailers (in particular one the other side of the Pennines) would be delighted to have them.

Excuse is they were sent less than expected by Hornby. And excuse it is - if you are given an allocation then that is what you should get. If you do not get your allocation, they should be giving Hornby hell. And if you didn't get your allocation, then who did ?

It'd be interesting to know whether Hattons roll over with their tummy in the air or make a fight of it. I assume they have written correspondence with Hornby as to how many to expect. Unless, or course, QA checks at Hornby have revealed problems, resulting in rejections, and hence the run is depleted. Not that we'll ever know.

The annoying bit is that at the time I could have placed elsewhere, but no, dealt with Hattons for years so go with them. 

Like an elephant, I will remember this. Perhaps Hattons should look at the prices people are selling these for on the secondary market, and credit let down customers who, not let it be forgotten, had A CONFIRMED, ACCEPTED PRE-ORDER.

Is this breach of contract ?

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

anyone had theres from Hattons yet ?

That's a no from me; I've got one of the R3809s on pre-order from them. Hoping it'll be this week as the models appear to be cropping up at smaller sellers.

On 08/01/2020 at 21:56, turbos said:

Probably the wise thing to do, weathering can be a bit Marmite.

27001 weathering is in my opinion, one of the better rtr weathering I’ve seen. So hopefully 27030 will be acceptable.

After waiting a long time for a new batch of TOPS 27s from Heljan, this new batch is a bit overwhelming. I want them all! But bank account says only one, maybe two, or three if I can manage without food for a bit!

 

Brian

Got my 27001 and 27030 from RoS this morning. Happy with both, but in my opinion the weathering on 27001 is extremely good for a factory-produced model. Very happy.

Really looking forward to this, the credit card is already twitching in anticipation of purchasing at least 3, one of each locomotive, in various liveries. Hopefully it'll be as visually impressive as the Heljan Manning Wardles but with the running ability and reliability of the Bachmann Baldwins. Then Model Rail really would have a winner on their hands, particularly if they achieve a sub-£200 price.

Was having a good look at D6116 in a Dapol retailer this afternoon, and the first thing that struck me was the lid of the excellently robust packaging states, in large letters, "North British Class 21 / Class 29 Diesel Hydraulic Locomotives". Err - wrong lads - class 22 was the diesel hydraulic, 21/29 were diesel electrics, someone obviously didn't do their research or proof checking (for the box lid) properly.

On the plus side, it would appear that Dapol for the 21/29 are using a rigid plastic sleeve over the clamshell instead of the clingfilm like material used on the 22s, which always seemed to me to spoil the otherwise classy packaging, so tick there. And the model itself looked very nice.

I'm waiting for the 29s.....

Like Merlin above, I've just taken delivery of 47993 from a retailer in Cheshire, and whilst it's only had a brief run the build quality appears better than the previous batch, of which I've got 2 (both of which are still on their original motors possibly due to pretty low usage and not wanting to tempt fate), and certainly looking at 47988. 

I certainly hope that (overall) history doesn't repeat itself, or else the photographic grey one may become the most appropriate one of the lot - the white elephant.

On 08/05/2018 at 12:55, Hilux5972 said:

Fantastic news. The Bachmann Model is long overdue an upgrade.

Saying that, in my view the Bachmann model still stands up very well, and I shall certainly not be replacing mine in the near future, instead adding missing liveries - Colas, BR Large Logo - to the existing fleet courtesy of the Hattons version.

The other thing that will only become clear, with time, is the reliability and technical back-up associated with this new version. Personally, I have always found the problem-free nature of most Bachmann products to be worth quite a bit, and certainly there are other locos coming from different manufacturers, some of whose past record is somewhat patchy, to challenge existing Bachmann ones; the same applies, I shall wait and see what is reported a few months down the road.

One livery I may go for is the Belmond Royal Scotsman, 66746. I caught this loco departing Middleton Towers with a sand train a couple of years ago, so know from what I've seen that they do the dirty work as well.

Regarding the issue of slightly wobbly running, could this be due in any way to axleboxes being slightly misaligned when glued onto the axles ? Mine seem OK, so I'm not going to try pulling them off to experiment; the other thing I'd be a little careful on is following the Hattons instructions for loose axlebox replacement. I don't know how much clearance there is between the axlebox and the hole on the bogie frame but I have visions of the axlebox stuck to both the axle and the bogie frame. I may well be wrong, but will wait until as and when I have an axlebox go walkies to find out.

18 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

Mine arrived without anything being loose - one buffer was a bit tight, but that's resolved.

 

One comment, it was obvious the bogies had rotated a little in transit - retainers like Dapol use could have been helpful!!

 

Al.

Similar experience. My two arrived courtesy of Royal Mail this afternoon - one bogie had rotated a little but apart from that all axleboxes in place, no bits fallen off, and impressed by both the weight and the detail of them. A good incentive to repair my test track and give them a run !

On 03/05/2019 at 17:27, Chamby said:

 

In the new Hornby mag today... Heljan's advert announces the new release Garratt is OUT NOW!    Not a squeak from retailers, though.  

 

Fingers crossed....

 

Phil.

The delivery date on the Hattons website is currently showing as the first quarter of 2020, whilst the Heljan advert in the latest (October) edition of Hornby Magazine (P104) says "out now". One is obviously talking tosh - know who I'd put my money on.

Perhaps they were delivered to Heljan and they had some issues pre-despatch.....

Sadly the latest batch of class 17s is a big let-down with old Heljan issues of poor quality control (bits missing), poor assembly (bits falling

off) and headcode lighting that is the worst I've seen in recent years. All the good work that the 07 did in terms of build quality being jeopardised. 

Don't think I'll be getting rid of my Bachmann 47s for the forthcoming Heljan one.

Bought a copy of this from the Vale of Rheidol shop today. If the fact it is self-published is putting you off, then don't be; quality and presentation is absolutely superb, and it's printed in the UK ! The nearest I can think of in terms of the quality and presentation is the Winston O LInk books, great quality photos, with all the photo data indexed at the rear of the book. If you care about quality, well worth anyone's £27.50.

5 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi C

 

There have been some really great models from Heljan, the Gloucester parcels car, the Hymek, the NBL D84xx, the BRCW Type 2, the Wagonbasher railbus and Lion. What else have I got, DP2, the BTH, Baby Deltic........perhaps you do have a point.

 

Seriously some of their models have been wonderful and others, well DP2 put me off of pre-ordering anything. Sad in many ways because when the do a model that looks right they can't be beaten. All we can hope for is the Peak and the 47 are good ones.

At  least when a model looks wrong then you can tell before you buy it (via either pre-release pics or physical inspection) whether you can live with that. It's when it looks right but has substandard mechanisms that's worse. You buy it, full of hope, and days, weeks, months later it self destructs (motor/gear tower issues on some models and fragile valve gear on the L&B locos being prime examples). I refer to my earlier comment, test the things thoroughly, don't leave the product development and QA to the customers....

21 hours ago, stewartingram said:

 

 

 

Re the earlier post regarding foods for different supermarkets packed in a common factory to almost identical specs - it's not only food it happens with. I used to work in a factory supplying branded items to multiple supermarkets where the base product was all but identical and the only differentiator was how pretty the packaging was. Some customers will pay more for attractive packaging. Such is marketing.

Just pause to think on what would happen should this principle be applied in model railways (and all this is purely hypothetical). Lets say that instead of Hornby, Bachmann and Heljan each developing and making their own version of the class 47, someone (let's call them Vader) set up a joint venture between the manufacturers to produce a new class 47. A common chassis with common motor is produced. Common bogies and associated drivetrains are produced. Bodyshells are produced, with the tooling allowing for different variants. The electronics package is standard.

This then results in identical basic locomotives, which then pass from the basic manufacturing process to a finishing plant, where the liveries and extras package specified by each manufacturer is applied, and subsequently packed into the final point of sale packaging specified by that manufacturer. Thus you have 000s of class 47s being produced, with the base models absolutely the same, where the only real difference (apart from liveries) is the amount of bells and whistles specified by the individual brand.

Desirable ? Debatable.

Cheaper ? Almost certainly.

Reliable ? Provided a competent job is made of the original design and manufacturing, plus decent QA and pre-production testing, then no reason why not.

Food for thought.

Hang on, that's where we started.

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

Lidl, Aldi, & good quality all in the same sentence? Now that is what a call an oxymoron!. 

 

Stewart

The comparison with supermarkets is a pretty good analogy.

Using the currently available class 66s as an example:

Hornby is your Lidl/Aldi - does all the basics competently, albeit with limited features.

Bachmann is your Tesco/Sainsbury. does the basics competently, but has more bells and whistles (ie detailing)

Hattons looks to have ambitions to be the Waitrose/M&S Food - time will tell if it succeeds.

For me, I've little argument with the Bachmann version, the ones I have are perfectly well detailed for me + are reliable. I have a Hattons version on order, so will see in future if it lives up to the above.

Substitute "Hattons" with "Heljan" and you possibly have Heljan's intentions with their new 47. As above, whether it meets those targets remains to be seen, and Heljan should learn from their past if they wish to succeed in their future aims.

58 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

God no, don’t make the shutters work.

unnecessary gadget to go wrong !

Quite ! Although a manually adjustable arrangement similar to the arrangement on (at least some) Hornby class 50s may be acceptable.

Otherwise, as you say, another thing to go wrong, and some of Heljan's past efforts haven't covered themselves in glory. Making sure the metallurgy's as it should be, and that motors don't self-destruct, are a basic MUST-HAVE before playing with nice-to-have features. And test the thing properly before unleashing it on the public.

Having said that, I own a couple of the little 07s, which I admit are beautiful little locos; I just hope their longevity matches their looks.