Titanius Anglesmith

2 hours ago, ianLMS said:

I wanted my station and platform to be the same level as the houses, roads etc behind so I wanted the use something large enough to cover the area. A sheet of MDF was the best thing I had to meet this.

 

I think this is something often missed on model railways (including my own). Side platforms were often at ground level, with the track laid in a trench. 

Beautiful scenic work! 

Entirely off-topic, but it looks like you've got a few interesting gizmos in the background, e.g. pantograph, surface grinder, shaper...... 

Very nice. That NER P1 looks rather smart 

Great answer, very informative. Thanks

10 hours ago, meil said:

It's the section signal that is interlocked. You can have a starter that is not the section signal.

... which is why in the example I gave I said there was no advanced starter 

2 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

That would be correct, but I was considering such a circumstance as being when a verbal instruction and hand signal would be used.

 

Ah I see, makes sense 

34 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

 

What might be more likely, given that the subject is a branch line, presumably rural, is that there is enough time before the next train for the goods train to retain the token on arrival, as possession of the token would allow a further movement back into the section in order to do the shunt in the assurance that no other train is in the section. Once the shunt is complete, the token can be surrendered.

 

Jim

If the starter is interlocked with the token instrument then I don’t think that’s possible (happy to be corrected). The token would have to be passed through the instrument to get a “one pull” release on the lever. 

Thanks Mike for the very informative reply.

So as an example...... Goods train arrives at the terminus and the loco runs round.  The train is then required to pull out of the platform, past the Starter, so that it may be set back into the goods yard.  Assuming that the platform starter is also the section signal and can only be released by withdrawing a token, the signalman will handsignal the train past the starter.  Is that right?

Sorry for the bump, but I have a question for Stationmaster Mike, if I may?

On 22/01/2020 at 12:14, The Stationmaster said:

An Advanced Starting Signal would probably be provided, released by token, as a train might potentially start from the 'goods' .

 

I'll try now to clear up the situation regarding shunting into a token section.  Shunting into token, and most other types of single line section, was very similar to a double line Blocking Back movement so the essential feature was that it applied to a  movement which would pass outside the protection of teh Home signal...

[snip] 

Years back some places had special Shunting tokens but these long ago vanished from general use and in some places where such moves took place regularly Shunt Ahead subsidiary arms were provided.

 

The idea of providing an additional Home Signal 440yds in rear of the Home Signal is a relatively modern one although it is used on heritage lines - it is not essential.  Neither is provision of an Advanced Starting Signal to act as a limiting point for such a movement.  these types of shunts took place at hundreds of locations where there were no Outer Home or Advanced Starting Signals because the railways didn't believe in wasting money...

At a single line terminus where there is neither an advanced starter nor a subsidiary shunt-ahead arm, can it therefore be assumed that there is no interlocking between the token instrument and the starter?  Naturally the driver should know better than to saunter off without the token, but the provision at some locations of advanced starters released by the token implies that mistakes have been made....

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

That is the beauty of working with relays - ok they are very 'steam age' in some respects but like many other things from the steam age they have the benefit of simplicity.

+1.  On my patch of "real" railway we have a mixture of relay interlocking and electronic.  The electronic systems keep us entertained with a variety of problems that relays are simply immune to.  The relay sites "just work".

Also following with interest. 

I also considered relays (not BR930!) for my own interlocking but discounted them on the grounds of expense. Even widely available 4 pole C/O relays would be prohibitively expensive. I then thought about logic gates but settled on programming an Arduino instead. I’ve “relocked the frame” a few times now to incorporate different ideas; it would have been much more difficult if I had to change physical wiring. 

2 hours ago, bécasse said:

But the signalling on the London Underground is very different to that on the main line railways, especially today of course, but historically too.

True, although there is a facing LOS board at Harrow On The Hill on the northbound main, used (exclusively, in normal running?) by the Chiltern trains out of Marylebone.  After I posted that I started looking through the scale plans out of curiosity.  I counted five facing LOS's on the Central Line and five more on the District before I gave up looking.

5 hours ago, Dave-5-5-7 said:

 

Sort of, the LOS is for trains shunting in the opposite direction to the normal flow of traffic. A main line train would only see the rear of it and so would ignore it.

I can think of at least three LOS boards on London Underground that face the normal running direction are are passed by hundreds* of trains a day

* probably less at the moment with the reduced levels of service

13 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

Hi,

Thanks for your interest.

 

Yes, I use a four jaw chuck, but its not the usual type with independent jaws.

I bought a Self Centring four jaw chuck a few years ago, and its extremely useful.

 

To hold the taper of the cast post, I simply wrap a few turns of masking tape around the part where the rear of the chuck jaws will grip.

Compare the size with the area gripped by the front of the jaws to get a true running workpiece.

 

I also used masking tape at the other end of the post to hold it for drilling the Finial location hole.

 

With small jobs like this on soft materials I find the approach works well.

If turning steel I'd calculate the packing required at each jaw position and machine brass inserts to suit.

 

Steve.

 

 

The simple solutions are usually the best ones. Thanks for the info 

Another following with interest, marvellous work 

Did you have any difficulty turning the spigot on the end of the main post, given that it’s tapered? I presume you used a standard 4-jaw chuck?

Perfect, thank you. I will have a look through my library to see if/when the rugby balls made an entrance in my local line. I think they may have retained straight arms at some locations until the end of semaphores in the 60s. 

On a tangent, can anyone confirm please if this MSE kit -

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/midland-railway-acfield-ground-signals-gs005/

 - represents this type of ground signal?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Midland_Railway_lower-quadrant_shunt_signals_(6156514069)_(2).jpg

Unfortunately there's no photo of it on Wizard's site.  Thanks

Quite right, I am easily confused.  I've definitely seen LMS installations (post 1928) with ground signals mounted adjacent to the running signal's post.  As I understand it, the LMS continued with pre-grouping practice up until c1928.  

Subsidiary arms on the main dolls it is then - 

What about the vertical spacing between the arms?  The article helpfully posted above by @micknich2003 shows a 6' spacing between stop and distant arms on the single post, but the photo of the stop signal with calling-on arm appears to be less.  I estimate 4' from that photo, and other photos online suggest the same (and as per the article, the lower arm should be 3' 6" from the landing).

Thanks all

Thanks All for the responses

23 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

A Midland ground signal wouldsurely be the order of the day.

Any advances on ground signal, anyone?

13 hours ago, bécasse said:

I am not sure that that is correct. I had aways thought that the Midland used a small subsidiary arm, painted in the same way as a main stop signal, mounted below the main arm on the post/doll (or on a separate doll but that is unlikely here) to control access to sidings whichever side of the line those sidings might be. All the (relatively few) photo references that I could quickly find seem to support that opinion.

That is interesting, thank you for the info. I have looked at various track plans in the Midland region (though not necessarily for the Midland era) but failed to find a comparable site. 

^^^^^^ If my efforts look anywhere near half as good as that, I'm onto a winner 

Going back to a question I asked earlier about signal placement - there's a siding that trails into the down line thus:

(other details such as runaround loop etc omitted for clarity)

Where would the best placement be for shunt signals from either platform into the down siding?  As I understand it, as the route is contrary to the normal direction (i.e. going up the down line), a ground signal would be used as opposed to a subsidiary arm on the main post?  If correct, would such signals both be placed at the foot of the post?  Or would the dummy for the upper platform be placed in the cess adjacent to the post as it reads to the right of the main arm?

Thanks in advance.

That is most kind, thank you.

I am piecing together a shopping list from Wizard, hopefully this will cover everything I need - 

Post - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s0017/

Brackets - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s008_2m/

Dolls - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s0033/ - (I've opted for a pair of short dolls as the arms need to be on the same level)

Set of arms (LQ) - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s005_1/

Finials - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/sc0012/

Lamps (LQ) - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/sc0023/

Ladder (23') - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/buildings/s009_7/

Post fittings (weights etc) - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s001/

Brass tube and rod - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/116in-brass-tubing-0-8mm-brass-rod-t116/

And unrelated but for my own reference:

Ground frame - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/buildings/4-lever-ground-frame-ls009/

An advantage LU has is that typically only one or two types of stock are likely to be in use in any one place, so braking distances are much more predictable. Even so, historically the platform starter overlaps were often shorter on the assumption that the train’s speed would be under control entering the platform. IIRC that has been a factor in collisions which the trainstop failed to prevent (Holborn 1980?)

They are, thank you