Morello Cherry

15 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I think you're working on the position of the regulator which is normally pivoted in the centre of the backhead ......... the real dexterity when driving is more concerned with the reverser and brake. [ Of course the word 'dexterity' stems for the Latin for 'right' ! ]

 

My father was naturally left handed, too, and he had to write right-handed at school in the '20s/'30s ... a habit he never lost.

As someone who is left handed but who throws and bats right handed I find RHD easier than LHD.  On a LHD it is easier for me to operate the brake, blower etc with my right hand and on RHD I find it easier to do it with my left. I'm not going across myself.

To check that I wasn't going crazy, I watched one of the Watercress line videos on youtube and the driver on the Ivatt tank which is LHD did everything right handed, if he had been left handed he'd have had to have twisted.

That said, it may well be that 100 years of LHD locomotives the layout progressed to suit right handed drivers and that if you were to drive an LHD from the 1850s it would not be so conducive to a right hander.

I just find it strange that ease of firing is given as a reason when what is easiest for the fireman would surely be among the lowest considerations when deciding LHD or RHD

On 04/06/2022 at 09:12, dpgibbons said:

The usual explanation for the GWR and some other pre-grouping railways adopting right-hand drive was that it's easier for a right-handed fireman to wield the coal shovel from the left-hand side of the cab.

But if you are a right handed driver isn't it easier to drive from the left hand side?

I find it hard to imagine that when they were laying out the cabs in the very early days that they were thinking 'hmmm, what is easiest for the right handed fireman'.

Also, given the hostility towards left handers, I wonder how many left handed firemen there actually were. (My grandmothers were not allowed to write with their natural left hand when at school in the 1920s)

If you have access then the following might be of interest.

The Role of Coastal Shipping in UK Transport: An Estimate of Comparative Traffic Movements in 1910

John Armstrong

First Published Sep 1, 1987; pp. 164–178

https://journals.sagepub.com/toc/jthc/8/2

There are some interesting tables in it comparing coastal and rail traffic and also where coal was coming from in 1910.

It is also worth noting that not all the coal was down the East Coast and there were some interesting journeys to get the coal to the ports - Simmons in the Oxford Companion highlights that some Erewash Valley coal was shipped from Morecambe. The GSWR carried in 1867 carried 900,000 tons to west coast ports. 

At the same time, he also highlights that the Highland and GNoSR moved coal that was landed at Scottish east coast ports. (The SER coal traffic from Whitstable is also mentioned).

The references included by Simmons make for some interesting further reading.

Trawsfynydd Branch?

3 hours ago, Merfyn Jones said:

Slate ceased in the 1960s, the explosives didn't begin until 1980s when the Cambrian line closed to loco hauled traffic.  Until the end of general goods traffic in the 70s there was just the coal and oil (Esso) traffic, which also had the flasks when they ran.

 

Thanks. Interesting, in the 2D53 page on the goods yard, the author reckons that there is a large slate block in a wagon to be transported, do you think he is wrong in his interpretation of the load

The GER society has some material on the GER and the 1911 show in Norwich and reference to a couple of articles.

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/gallery/royal-agricultural-show

Nothing to do with much but while looking for something else I came across this film about mining in Somerset in the 1960s. Plenty of shots of Radstock.

There is also a brief shot of the halt at Farrington Gurney where the tickets were sold out of an office at the back of the Miners Arms pub. The pub (now a restaurant) and ticket office are still there even if the line isn't.

Although this is after your time period. I thought it might be of interest. There are some photos from the Three Counties Show held at Great Malvern in 1961.

They include Horse Boxes from the Southern and a vehicle on a flat wagon. Again suggesting inter-regional travel for agricultural shows.

http://malvernrailway.blogspot.com/2016/01/great-malvern-station.html

There are a couple of interesting bits of information in Simmons' Oxford Companion. He mentions that the average distance of rail haul for coal pre WW2 was 44 miles but during WW2 as traffic was transferred from vulnerable east coast colliers to rail it increased to 57 miles. A coaster's average haul was 250 miles. He points out that the other big advantage the coastal colliers had was the amount they could carry, in 1900 the average London coastal collier was bringing in 1000 tons.

He also points coasters were better over distance compared to rail because of costs. Coasters had fixed costs at port but these decreased with distance whereas, rail traffic the costs increased with distance.

I am curious as to what happened to the coastal colliers during the two wars. Jellicoe Specials were set up because coastal colliers were threatened by u boats. I assume that domestic coal traffic that had been sent by sea must have also been sent by rail for the same reason - does anyone know?

5 hours ago, Brinkly said:

• Any good books with PO wagon liveries to refer to? 

 

 

This might be worth checking out. I don't have it myself

https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/private-owner-wagons-of-somerset/l9877

When it comes to Somerset railways Colin Maggs  is pretty much the go to author.

There is also this about the uses of coal and transport of it and also suggests where coal was coming from into the South West.

Quote

 

Morgans, however, writing in 1884, felt that the local coal industry was not being fairly treated by the railway companies, particularly with regard to the rates charged for the carriage of coal. He noted that the GWR charged 6/8 per ton for the 150 mile journey from Cannock Chase to Trowbridge, whilst it charged 2/3 per ton to carry Radstock coal 18 miles to the same destination, a difference made even more significant by the higher costs of production in Somerset. Furthermore, in 1879, following the opening of the Severn bridge, the GWR reduced its rates for Forest of Dean coal, although Morgans felt that the opening of the bridge had not had the disastrous effects for the industry that had been forecast. He also thought that the construction of the Severn tunnel would be equally unlikely to have any serious effects, since, even if the GWR were to be able to reduce its rate of 7/6 per ton from Cardiff to London, it still would not be able to compete with the rate of 4/6 per ton charged for sea-borne coal. Nevertheless, competition from other districts remained a major source of concern, and Down and Warrington quote a local coal owner who justified his refusal to grant a pay rise in 1912 by claiming that “only last Saturday I saw three or four trucks of Cannock Chase coal being unloaded at Mells Station.” (W Morgans (1884: John Wright & Co: Bristol) A Survey of the Bristol Coal-field, pp. 66-68 & 88; C G Down & A J Warrington (nd: David & Charles: Newton Abbot) The History of the Somerset Coalfield, p. 25)

 

4.3: The Nature of the Market

 

In 1919, Sir Frank Beauchamp put the annual coal requirements of Bristol at something in excess of 1,500,000 tons. The Regional Survey Report shows that, by 1943, the coalfield was unable to supply this, let alone the requirements of the surrounding counties, even though all Bristol and Somerset coal was now being used within the south-west.

 

The report also analysed the nature of the market in 1943/44 , which it claimed was similar to that of the pre-war period. A more detailed survey was carried out by the Fuel Research Coal Survey in October 1943, the results of which were claimed to provide a good indication of the nature of the local industries, since most of the coal was disposed of close to the collieries. (Bristol and Somerset Coalfield Regional Survey Report (1946: HMSO: London), pp. 20-21)

 

What is immediately obvious is the overwhelming dependence of the mines on sales to the gas industry. The gasworks were one of the very few consumers to take all six grades of coal produced in the area, although 79% of that used in October 1943 was through coal, which had received no treatment apart from hand-picking. This ready market may account for the fact that only Coalpit Heath, Pensford and Kilmersdon had any washing facilities, although a washery was also being installed at Old Mills. As a result, 52.9% of the output in 1944 was through coal, with a further 39.8% merely being screened into large and small. Only 7.3% was cleaned, a fact which the Regional Survey Report urged should receive early attention. (Bristol and Somerset Coalfield Regional Survey Report (1946: HMSO: London), pp. 21 & 23)

 

There are the Somerset Coalfields and there is also coal mines around the Forest of Dean.

From wiki:

The total tonnage of coal produced by the coalfield increased throughout the 19th century, reaching a peak around 1901, when there were 79 separate collieries and production was 1.25 million tons per annum. The peak years for production were 1900 to 1920. However, decline took hold and the number of pits reduced from 30 at the beginning of the 20th century to 14 by the mid-1930s,

There is quite a bit about it - https://radstockmuseum.co.uk/coalmines-mining-and-local-industries/

Most histories of the S&D include a discussion of the various coal mines that were on the line and of course Kilmersdon (now at the MHR) was working Kilmersdon colliery until 1973.

There's a bit on Somerset mining on the Kilmersdon page - https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/peckett-sons-works-no-1788-kilmersdon-0-4-0st/

The slag heap in Midsomer Norton is used for creative purposes these days

I assume that despite the railway passing right by it, that nothing was ever brought into Filton?

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

As already explained coal handled in local yards basically need no more than some blokes with shovels plus bags  to fill, and scales to weigh it.  Often done on the back of a lorry if the coal was going to be delivered soon after taking it out of the wagon.

 

BR started to move seriously towards closure of small yards and handling domestic coal at concentration depots in the 1960s but some places - witness BF - hung on for years mainly because they lacked convenient road access to a concentration depot.  Generally, as again previously noted. very often the last freight traffic to disappear from many stations, especially on branch lines - was coal but the sheer cost of moving by rail to an otherwise unused branch line or station yard made it grossly uneconomic to deal with. 

 

The general deal with coal merchants was that if they had handled coal there when a yard was open for receipt of coal by rail they were allowed to rent space after the station had closed for handling freight traffic.  if they used any additional space that was subject to Excess Space charges and they were all regularly monitored.  Sometimes completely new merchants would appear renting space in a disused goods yard - it happened at both the intermediate stations on our local branch line where one of those stations hadn't seen any coal traffic for years.  After the track was lifted a coal merchant moved in renting much of the land and building some very solidly constructed timber pens to hold his stock of coal - he simply went out of business when the market vanished (as it did for most domestic coal merchants).

 

Merchants who stayed on in their old space were required, as part of their rental agreement, to get all of their coal through a concentration depot and were subject to fines if they obtained coal from any other source.  On our regular trips around the area I worked in during the mid 1970s we kept an eye out for - usually bulk load - lorries carrying coal and we caught several merchants playing that game.  But it was far more difficult to catch them out on lines like the former S&DJt where there were no longer any railway staff, such as Signalmen or station staff, about.

 

In some cases former, traditional, coal yards with little or no mechanical handling kit were re-christened as concentration depots and remained as such until traffic began to decline - Merthyr was a good example of this.  The main reason coal traffic vanished had little to do with the railway and was really a consequence of changes in how people heated their homes or looked fora cleaner fuel that was more convenient. 

I read recently a book about continuity and change in farming that you could have taken a farm worker from the 1830s and dropped him into a 1930s farm and he would find very little different from 100 years previously, but that you could drop him into a farm in the 1970s and there would be very little that he would recognise. It is fascinating to me that in an age of HSTs, APTs, MGRs, block trains and so on and so forth, that there were operations like BF in the 1970s and 1980s that were so little changed from the 1870s and 1880s. The guys with the barrows at Charlbury would recognise the scene at BF. The biggest difference is no stationmaster on hand to make sure things are being done by the book.

It perhaps says a lot about how isolated some places were for such operations to continue for so long.

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Coal unloading in ordinary goods yards never called for any specialised equipment, unless you count a shovel as such. Unloading coal at a dock or raised bank would be an unusual luxury! I would imagine that at most places if the stationmaster caught that going on he would have pointed out that the dock was intended for the unloading of merchandise and ingrained coal dirt would not be welcome.

 

(Of course there are always photographs of exceptions but that's what they are: exceptions.) 

Indeed, BF is an exception because it had the former narrow gauge - standard gauge transhipment sidings which had by the 1970s could be used as docks. Although those photos appear to show the coal piled on the ground.

Would stations like BF have even had a station master by the 1970s?

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

 

Do you mean, how was coal brought in to the area and distributed after bulk rail deliveries had ceased?

 

In the sense of you have a goods yard like BF that doesn't appear to have any specialised equipment for coal unloading other than a dock. Would it have been in a 16T mineral wagon and people and shovels as late as the 1980s? I'm assuming it wouldn't have been an HBA because no drops.

I guess by this time the era of a coal yard with three coal merchants was probably gone in towns of similar size to BF

The thing is that for example I can remember in the early 80s we would have coal delivered by the coal man but by the end of the 80s I remember getting it from the local DIY store. I can't remember when it stopped but I guess it was a knock on from the Miners' Strike.

There is an image of the coal yard at BF in 1977. If anyone can decipher how coal was unloaded and what was being used to bring it to BF that would be brilliant.

Wiki commons has thrown up a photo of the station site from 1976 and the coal yard can be seen clearly.

Possibly OT and in which case I apologise. I have a question - how would coal have been handled in small towns etc towards the end of such traffic. I was reading about Blaenau Ffestiniog and it mentions that goods facilities including coal were withdrawn in 1984. How would coal have been handled there where there don't appear to be any obvious facilities for unloading? What would it have been transported in? (I assume that BF wasn't the only small place receiving household coal until late and maybe people can remember how it was done elsewhere - this is one of those small but common operations that I probably saw but took no notice of until it stopped).

1 hour ago, Merfyn Jones said:

 

 

That is fantastic. I love that you've gone for the FR station in its early 1980s form with the huts and no shelter. It really captures BF. I like the wandering sheep as well. Brings back plenty of memories of waiting in the rain for EoM or the Alco on a train of red carriages. Thank you for sharing.

I was looking again at the 2d53 site again and it mentions that goods traffic to BF stopped in 1984. It makes me wonder what would the traffic in and out of BF have been before then: Explosives, slate (as evidenced by the photo on the page) and it mentions coal in. Does anyone have any thoughts on what else might have been in. I assume that good traffic was worked to and from Llandudno Jnc worked by one of the locos from there and traffic was split/added to workings along the rest of the coast. Clearly it wasn't a lot of traffic as it ended in 84.

http://www.2d53.co.uk/blaenauffestiniog/Goods Yard.htm

Apologies if this is old news. A few images of British Oak appeared on flickr this week.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/britishoakocdp

23 hours ago, Merfyn Jones said:

 

I'm working on it.

Do tell more. Sounds good.

44 minutes ago, 47137 said:

 

A ploughing engine would set the scene nicely, it would be more specific than a traction engine.

 

Perhaps a specimen of an engine for shows had been moved from GWR territory to central Essex ... I could start to look for a 7mm kit.

 

- Richard.

Other equipment could be threshing, sowing or harvesting (depending on what your crops were).

You might be interested in this:

https://www.fwi.co.uk/machinery/tractors/machinery-milestones-the-worlds-first-tractors

A little way down we have a very public demonstration of the Ivel tractor in 1905.

So you could have your very early tractor being transported to 'demonstrate' its prowess to local land owners.

It is worth noting that the 1911 Royal Agricultural Show was held at Crown Point. And that there is mention of an early tractor being demonstrated at the 1903 Royal Show and it failing.

Another reference says that around 1900 there were 160 tractor manufacturers.

In the early 1900s, more than 160 tractor companies, with names like Agrimotor, Ajax, Big Bud, Dragon, John Blue and Kitten, sold their machines around the world to meet the growing demand for mechanization. Hundreds more sold plows, pickers and other farm implements.

 

As early as 1930, through attrition and industry consolidation, only 7 full-line farm equipment companies remained: John Deere, International Harvester, Case, Oliver, Allis-Chalmers, Minneapolis-Moline and Massey-Harris.

https://www.farm-equipment.com/articles/15962-manufacturer-consolidation-reshaping-the-farm-equipment-marketplace

Agrimotor were Saffron Waldon and we have this little bit of information here (I can't paste the link because it is straight to a pdf):

These motor-ploughs participated successfully in the two-day trials held near Bury St Edmunds in 1914. They were also shown at the Royal Agricultural Society show held at Shrewsbury in that same year.

So you have an example of machinery going from GER to GWR territory for a show.

It is also worth noting that many tractor makers were American, and they were exporting their tractors to the UK. So you could also have a tractor that might have been imported via Bristol for example and then shipped to Suffolk.

Also, do you remember a few years back there was the 'Edwardian Farm' series on TV. They tried and tested a whole series of new machinery that was available then, so this might give you some alternative loads being shipped for demonstration.

Agricultural shows were and still are big business.

A lot depends on the type of farms, size, what they are doing etc as to what they might need and where they might source it from. Seasonality also matters as there will be busier periods where labour and machinery would be hired in. Large estate type farms are going to be more mechanised than smaller farms (Although they too would be becoming increasingly mechanised).

Just off to the right behind the water tower was Charlbury gasworks. I am not sure but I'd assume a fair amount of coal was for that. Or is that the long siding at the back where there appears to be a cart backed up against a wagon?

The Charlbury shot is interesting because there is a wheelbarrow and what looks like ramps, I pity the poor sod tasked with that job. Amazing that somewhere as tiny of turn of the century Charlbury could generate so much traffic and need such a complicated track layout. (Nice to model though).

Apologies if this has been mentioned but what about this image of Moreton in Marsh?

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrmm982b.htm

There seem to be three very dark patches.

The interesting thing to me is that the dark area that I think is coal is on a dock but then I am not so sure from this image of the dock that it is coal

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrmm987b.htm

Charlbury down the road looks a bit more rough and ready.

It is a line that has something for everyone and 'quirky' traffic in almost all eras. Even a small station like Conwy has tons of modelling potential, while Bangor, Llandudno Jnc, Llandudno, Holyhead and Rhyl are big stations and then you've got places like Mostyn Quay, or the branch lines off of it, all of which have tons of potential.