Michael Crofts

I struggle dating photos between about 1890 and 1919 unless they contain something definitely datable. It's easier when the subject is female and wealthy enough to follow fashion, but lower down the scale it's really hard because even in the best photos you can't see whether the clothes are 20 year old (or older) hand-me-downs or brand new. Men's clothing hardly changed in that period so far as I can see. In the photo in question, we could perhaps date it better if we knew which street it is and when the houses were built. It would take 20 years for ivy to grow like that.

My collection of images, mostly purloined, includes these: 1. Undated, Cambridgeshire 2. Undated, unknown location - this and the preceding image show a can very unlike those usually seen on railway platforms. 3. Urban setting where of course the milkman's round was a well-established trade long before our period, but I can't resist including it This is relevant https://www.packagingnews.co.uk/features/comment/soapbox/history-of-the-world-in-52-packs-part-2-the-milk-bottle-29-07-2015#:~:text=The first glass milk bottles,hygiene standards in the industry. and it says this: By 1975, 94% of milk was bottled, compared with only about four per cent by 2012. If that's right I think we can assume that a reasonable-sized town in our period would have had a cart taking one or more cans house-to-house from which the milk was dispensed, even if the cart had come from a farm's milking parlour rather than a dairy.

Well that really is very good, completely fooled me for a moment there, especially the forced perspective half-relief buildings between the station and the backscene. Then I realised that if I was looking at the actual model all the traffic on the Tyne bridge would be stationary.

Returning to the idea of private sidings where the industry was out of sight there is a good example just south of @Edwardian's patch, which he probably knows about, on the Newmarket-Ely line between Fordham and Soham. Known for some reason (which I haven't got to the bottom of yet) as the Burwell Tramway it originally served a manure works, then a brickworks, then also a Cold Store, and a fruit farm built a narrow gauge tramway to connect to it, and farmers loaded wagons where they passed their fields. All that was visible at the exchange sidings was a gate and a "loop" which was typically worked as described with wagons being propelled in through a trailing connection from the main line, and hauled out from a parallel siding, with the private locos propelling wagons in to the sidings. The sidings here were quite long but only because of the amount of traffic - there were other examples with short sidings. And Leiston was definitely a place where the private locomotive worked on "Company" metals - there are several photos of Sirapite doing that, but I don't know whether it carried the Railway Clearing House plate which would have given it the proper authority to do so. Is there nowhere on @Edwardian's layout for a private siding? Photo by Edward Lawrence, 3 August 1961. I saw this sort of thing with my own eyes, just once. Treasured memory.

There were still 2 cars on the Friday evening train from Liverpool Street to Norwich, departing around 17:30 IIRC, in the early 1970s. Except one was an ordinary TSO with table linen, and me looking forward to the treat of a good meal en route to the family home (change at Ipswich for Saxmundham). Again, from memory, while the typical British Rail Sandwich was every bit as bad in those days as the legends say, the restaurant car services were very good. On reflection I suppose that doesn't answer the question, but hey ho.

I am in awe of anyone who takes on a project like this knowing how much work is needed and how long it will take. We see lots of people start ambitious projects without understanding just how much hard work and perseverance is needed to complete them, and almost always the projects are never completed. But Andy obviously does understand what he he is doing, and how hard it will be, and he does it anyway. That's worthy of respect. I hope the support from those who read about this model and tick the "like" button helps keep the ball rolling.

That's really well done in lots of ways. I don't find the scene particularly attractive but it's convincing. The viewpoint is just right for the forced perspective of the terraced houses. But what a pity the photographer caught the top of the backscene (top right hand corner of the photo). Destroys the illusion completely.

I think you are right. In the enlargement below the rail indicated by a red arrow and 'A' is fixed and simply serves as an edge for the roadway. The rail indicated by a yellow arrow marked 'B' looks a lot like the arrangement used for points on the Welsh quarry lines which had double-flanged wheels. I think this piece of rail pivots around its centre to provide a line for either the crane or the railway as required. I'm only guessing of course but if the crane wheels were double-flanged this would be better in some ways than a more complex crossing with a lot of gaps for the railway wheels to bump across. Perhaps they barred it over when they needed to move it and chocked it to hold it in position? On a layout wire-in-tube would seem to be the obvious way of modelling this. There seems to be a lot of clutter preventing the crane from moving. Foy seems to have got about a bit - there are two well-known pictures of her at Pentewan which is nearer her home port but a long way from Preston. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coastal_steamer_Foy_of_Fowey_unloading_coal_at_Pentewan_into_Pentewan_Railway.jpg

Well I suppose it depends what you do end up deciding is South Devon, but here's Plymouth Barbican and a re-post of my photos of the remaining track on Sutton Wharf (can't find my photos of North Quay). Our boat's home berth at present is Sutton Wharf so I stumble over the old rails and uneven setts frequently. Sutton harbour lies off the Cattewater and is definitely in Devon. I'd say it is in South Devon. The next link is to a small collection of photos of the LSWR's presence on Sutton Wharf. The Sutton Harbour branch opened in 1879 from Friary Station to Sutton Harbour passing under Exeter Street in a tunnel. It then crossed Sutton Road and ran on to North Quay, then wagon turntables gave access to Sutton Wharf where there remains one of the two remaining bits of original broad gauge track which I know of. Incidentally, one thing which I don't think everyone gets right is model setts. It's normal to depict these with every block the same as every other but in many cases the width was fairly regular (so a row of setts formed a straight line) but the lengths definitely weren't all the same - or all the same colour.

I can't type my reply below the quote from Schooner. Weird. I have made an album of images of docks, jetties, harbours - including walls and in some cases sheds. Mostly purloined but a few are my own. Perhaps there might be something in there which is relevant. I have been boating for 9 years and have berthed in 58 different places. I never realized until I started seeing them from the water how utterly different they all are, even nowadays when a lot of the elements are more similar than they used to be. If anyone wants a suggestion for a prototype location with specific characteristics I'd be happy to see if I can dredge something up. But of course it's desperately hard to model them because, mostly, they are just so large. Click on the image to see the album.

An update to my post about the level crossing on the Stonehouse branch in Plymouth (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/163553-abandoned-rails-in-the-roador-elsewhere/?do=findComment&comment=5022827. I went back today and photographed it myself in the rain. Definitely standard gauge, as you would expect.

I smiled at the anecdote about Mr. Frics but I impute an ulterior motive to counsel's use of that moniker. After working quite hard as a mature student at Kingston Polytechnic (age 33 when enrolled on the course) I achieved a bachelor's degree in estate management which exempted me from the written examinations of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, and in 1989 I became BSc ARICS. By the time I got the letters I had given up all ideas of prestige being associated with them - there was none - and throughout my career when in court I found the black-robed types very dismissive of me and my qualifications even when it was blindingly obvious that I knew more about the law relating to the dispute at issue than they did. I met some very clever barristers and a lot of twits. I never felt like paying the extra subscription to be FRICS rather than ARICS and when I retired, at the earliest possible date, determined entirely by financial considerations, I refused to pay the £450 p.a. demanded by my Institution for continued use of their letters (you see it's the institution that owns the letters, not the person who has earned them). So I was never FRICS, only ARICS, and now I am ARICS (rtd.) but only every now and then when I feel like it. Nowadays of course even the BSc doesn't count for much. But I will say that the polytechnics did a marvellous job in their day, teaching some important vocational courses, and I think it was a terrible mistake to turn them all into quasi universities. Here's a picture of an Edwardian engine in Norfolk to lighten the tone - the first run under steam in preservation of the J15 - my photo.

My favourites in these finds are the truly abandoned and forgotten bits of track which nobody cares about and are not "preserved" in any way - they have no plaques or information boards. This one is sort of in-between. It's on the Monmouth Troy to Chepstow line, the Wye Valley route, now the Greenway path. It's the wreckage left over from the scrapping of the track at Tintern Quarry. I think they left this bit (and a short length of track where the screens were) as a reminder. More photos and a location map in my Flickr album, click on the image.

I'm delighted to see this. I remember that line in use but sadly I was too late for the Sentinel shunters. Is there anything left up the road, at Great Yarmouth, the line down to the docks? Rangers posted a reminiscence here but wasn't sure whether anything remains: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/163553-abandoned-rails-in-the-roador-elsewhere/#comment-4385901 I remember that one in use as well.

As an aside, I was surprised to see just how much bullhead rail still exists in sidings and loops between Plymouth and Bristol. I estimate at least a couple of miles of track, all rusty and a lot of it overgrown. Some of it has been disconnected so it must count as abandoned, even though it's on the right of way of an operative line.

Glimpsed from the train yesterday, south east of Exeter St, Thomas. Part of the line leading down to Exeter Basin, now the Historic Docks which I mentioned in an earlier post. The rails are clear to see, embedded in concrete.

I loved the stoves on the brakes. Winter night diagram Cambridge - Whitemoor & back: Bring own newspaper to light up with, and matches, kindling and coal supplied, get the fire going while the van is on the ramp, then go and hook up the loose fitted wagons, by the time the train has been brought forward and the brake has been let down the ramp the fire is well alight - by Ely the stove is glowing red hot. Loved it.

Do broad gauge rails used for fences count as abandoned rails? I suppose they do. Quite a few still to be seen where I live (Forest of Dean) but vey slowly they are disappearing. I took these pictures of an occupation crossing on the Monmouth - Ross on Wye trackbed, this is Barlow rail. Please excuse tummy in shot. Click on picture to see the album.

Yes but he has hidden them under wagons for the photograph so there's that. Here's the complete image:

Newport, taken from the Transporter Bridge

Andrew - thanks for letting me know. It looks like a nice book but I am spending quite a lot of money at the moment buying reproduction rights to photos for a book about the tramway (actually railway) which I am preparing, so I'll do without that book for the time being.

I was in a bit of a rush yesterday so a quick catch-up before I leave for a weekend away - Thanks to all who are helping with this. Ian Smeeton - I missed the link (I was trying to work too quickly) - sadly not a mention of Burwell, or Fordham, or Fisons..... I don't think the IRS have ever published an article about the tramway Moxy - Thanks, and it turns out Mabbutt is almost right, see below Johann Marsbar - Thanks for the link to the Birmingham handbook. This is jogging my memory - I had a full set of those handbooks 50 years ago but they went in a clear-out of teenage stuff around the millenium, which was madness, never throw any books away, hoard them all! There is a copy of the handbook on ebay and I've put in an offer. The reference to Horn & Company ties in with this post on a Facebook group where I am collecting information: 'My late father was store manager at the cold store ( Horn and Co. fruit growers and later Apollo freight). It had its own siding for the tram way. I drove the engine from the cold store to the mid way point Soham under the supervision of Ron Faben and the other Guy (his name evades me). I was 12 I think.' Several people have said they drove the Planet diesel when they were kids - it sounds as though it was one of the principal amusements at Burwell towards the end. Gordon A - Thanks for looking the Manning Wardle up in Harman (who is very scathing about Mabbutt in his preface to Vol.1 - without naming him!). I'm pleased to say that a photo of W/N 422 arrived in my inbox yesterday but I have not yet got a licence to reproduce it Stewart Ingram, Moxy - yes "Bulwell" is a typo. Robert Stephenson & Co. had a cement works just north of Burwell on the Cambridge - Fordham - Mildenhall line. When the loco changed hands I wonder if it chuffed round from the cement works to the tramway under its own steam - I bet it did. Those were the days. All - Has anyone got a copy of 'Industrial Locomotives & Railways of Eastern England' by Gordon Edgar? There are several copies on ebay and I'll buy one if it's got anything about the Burwell line.

Thanks to everyone. Four? I started off with 1 Planet diesel and assumed there must have been a steam loco before that.... then I found two of them, then today a third, and there's still another about which i know nothing? I shall go and pour myself an adult beverage and read the Middleton Press book, contemplate what other discoveries remain to be made, and pick this up again at the weekend.

The Middleton Press book has arrived and has two good pages on the Tramway. It states that the exchange siding was known as Colchester & Ball's Siding, Prentice's Siding, and Fisons' Siding. The first named business built the original factory on what became Fisons' site - details here. I am amazed by how much material has emerged since I started this. There is a lot more to this little railway than I first thought. There is probably going to be a book. More help needed please. I have a copy of Volume 1 of Fred Harman's 3-part work 'The Locomotives Built by Manning Wardle and Company' but I now need to see Volume 2 Standard Gauge which I don't have and can't find. I'm looking for information about 0-4-0 No. 422 of 1873. Can anyone help? I also need to know if anyone has an index to the Industrial Railway Record. I think it has information about the Tramway and its locomotives. I have found 4 locos so far and have already splashed out on reproduction rights for pictures of two of them - more to follow I hope.