Schooner

Morning all, Following the 'Knowledge' and 'Infrastructure' bits of the forum titles, I'm hoping this is the right place to ask a question about two-road goods sheds, as (I believe) not infrequently found on the GWR. My apologies if this is covered somewhere else, nothing came up in couple of investigations of RMWeb using the search function. Admins please feel free to move as required. Anyway: In short, I'd like to know why they were built, and how they were operated. My confusions stems from my general belief that a goods shed serves to provide a space where freight can be transferred from road to rail, by necessity at platform height. Where does a section of track within the shed but without platform access fit in to this? Attached as an example are a photo (1935) and plan (1924) of Bradford on Avon. It might be worth noting that originally the shed was on a loop, with both shed roads having access to the up line but only the northern (platform access) road continuing on into the loading dock, as per the 1906 OS. I'm hoping decent information on the interior fit-out of the shed may illuminate things, but I've yet to come across any... All thoughts gratefully received! Schooner

Hear, hear! Your work is, quite literally, inspirational. I'm sure you don't do it purely for the pleasure of others, but it really is a joy to look at - thank you for sharing

I wish there was more! It came as a total surprise to me browsing a set of old OS maps. Armed with the knowledge of where to look, I'm hoping to get down there again before too long (perhaps in the winter, without so much foliage in the way) and have a scuffle about to see what I can find ("research", shurely), but the edge of the stone yard is definitely pretty obvious when cleared. I absolutely agree that it's a shame information is not more readily available to those passing by. The stone yard in particular seems unknown - the history of the workhouse, mills, quarries, cottages and pub is fairly well covered by what I've found in the charming Avoncliff: The Secret History of an Industrial Hamlet in War and Peace or various freely available online sources* and I think (?) there's an educational board or two about the aqueduct...but very very little on the yard. Barely a sentence, and the tiny bits in the two Frith Collection photos - not very much to go on. I might have to get off my seat and do some actual research for this bit! On a largely unrelated note - I've had a WTT-inspired clustercuss about Frome, detailed in the edited post above. Any help much appreciated Cheers, Schooner *Which never cease to amaze. This morning I'd never heard of Kelly's Directories. This afternoon I've used them to find out that in 1911, the year for which I also have time-tabling information, the stationmaster at Bradford on Avon was Mr V.O.J. Fenner. I wish I could order all the books that doubtless hold answers to my many questions, but it is still staggering what one is able to find out with really very little effort

A post for WTT thoughts it will, as all others, be edited and altered over time to reflect changing state of information, progress etc. These are new to me so please forgive silly questions, I got a little tingle of excitement reading through this last night (...and well into this morning...) but I'll doubtless make mistakes, misunderstand information I read correctly, and misread plenty more. Any corrections will be taken gratefully 1911 WTT couresty of http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/ These seem a great find, almost spot on for the period I was hoping to represent, immensely powerful documents and not as impenetrable as feared. Is there anything I need to be wary of? For a trial run I looked last night at the workings of the Bathampton branch (roughly), which brought a few pleasant surprises and re-opened an old conundrum - what to do with Frome. Any easy example is the 09.35 Bath - Frome railmotor service: ...which can, on the 'inside' layout, be seen doing a reasonable facsimile: Bath bay - (Hampton Row) - Bathampton - Avoncliff - Bradford on Avon (so far so good) - Bradford West/South Jnc towards Trowbridge...At this point I'm hoping that Frome, being a station in the right sort of place, not particularly visible to the Bradford operator, and operated independently (as as part of the 'outside' layout), can stand in as Trowbridge, the time being 10.10. For the Frome operator, they will view the same as the 10.44 arrival and manage it as such. I think this is workable, and shows off the uber-plan to advantage. One of these, however would be liable to cause problems. Would it start in Frome-as-Trowbridge? Would it start from the LH fiddleyard and pass through Frome without stopping? Frome is already a bit of a fudge, obviously, but I'd under-appreciated how busy it was and the role it played in the network. The issue I'm immediately seeing is what do with services that call at Bradford or Frome which originate or terminate at Trowbridge or Westbury. It turns out that Frome was plenty busy enough without having to stand in for two other stations and another mainline junction, My planned thinning of the timetable may not be enought to cut it. There's no particular reason why Frome services for Westbury etc couldn't go off-scene via Bradford North, and Frome-fiddleyard is absolutely workable for South-bound traffic; or something ...but it's the volume of it that I see causing issue. It doesn't take much movement on the Bathampton Branch and Reading-Taunton line section (which connects at Bradford Junction with my dubious cartography ) - even with real timetabling - for things to get hectic for the Frome operator. Then once all that's settled the SDJR needs thrown into the fray; and coal traffic worked out...it should come in to the sidings via Frome West and the Radstock Branch...but should go out along the SDJR towards Bath. This all seems dangerously complicated at the moment and although I'm sure a resolution exists, I'd appreciate any thoughts on how to manage this messiest corner of the layout! I'm very happy to alter the layout plan etc, any ideas most welcome! Looking forward to it Schooner PS: Until I have somewhere else to put it: The Historical Model Railway Society gallery PPS: The not directly relevant, but absolutely brilliant and hopefully useful Warwickshire Railways website PPS: Headcode info, copied from here. "Relevant extracts from Great Western Railway’s Rules and Regulations (1st January 1905 and 1st January 1923): Rule 125. For the information of Station-masters, Signalmen, and others each engine must carry the prescribed Head Lamps or Discs, and Destination Boards where provided. Rule 126. Every train travelling on the Line must have a Tail Lamp, properly cleaned and trimmed, attached to the last vehicle, by day as well as by night. The Lamp need not be lighted in the daytime, except in foggy weather or during falling snow, or where otherwise provided, but its presence in the rear of each passing train will furnish evidence to the Signalmen that no portion of the train has become detached. Rule 127. After sunset, and in foggy weather or during falling snow, every engine must carry the necessary Head Lights, and, when running alone, a Red Tail Light also; and except as shown in the following paragraph, or where instructions are issued to the contrary, every train while on any Running Line must carry a Red Tail Light on the last vehicle and two Red Side Lights. Where trains are run in the same direction on Parallel Lines, special Regulations for Head, Side, and Tail Lamps will be made, when necessary, to meet the circumstances of each case. Note. – For details of the practice to be observed, see General Appendix to the Rule Book The Guard, if there be only one, or the rear Guard, if there be more than one, must see that the Tail and Side Lamps are kept properly burning when necessary. Rule 128. Engines when on any Running Line without a train must carry a Tail Lamp in the rear both by day and by night. Engines assisting trains in the rear must carry a Tail Lamp. Engines drawing trains must not carry any Tail Lamp. In the case of two or more engines running coupled together without a train, the last engine only must carry a Tail Lamp. Rule 129. Shunting engines employed exclusively in Station Yards and Sidings must, after sunset or in foggy weather or during falling snow, carry both Head and Tail Lamps showing a Red Light or such other Light as may be prescribed. Lamp Headcodes Lamp Headcodes allowed the type of the approaching train to be identified from a distance. The system had been introduced in the 1850’s to inform Signalmen of the expected speed of a train through their section. This was particularly useful when operating a Time Interval signalling system, but even after this system was superseded by Block Section signalling Lamp Headcodes were retained. The Headcodes were indicated on the front of locomotives using oil lamps (which were lighted at night) mounted as appropriate on three permanent brackets (lamp irons) fitted to the buffer beam and a fourth in front of the chimney (later this upper bracket was moved to the top of the smoke box door). On the Great Western Railway these oil lamps were initially painted red, but the colour was changed to white after December 1936 (CME Circular 5746), although the process was gradual and took several years to complete, during which time trains with either red or white painted lamps and sometimes both could be seen. To complicate matters some Lamp Headcodes had different meanings in different companies and at different time periods, with some companies also using additional positions and coloured discs instead of lamps. This is despite the Railway Clearing House (RCH) issuing a number of standard Lamp Headcode arrangements. Even within the same company the lamp positions and their meanings were occasionally changed. On the Great Western Railway there were several versions, two of which plus the British Railways version are described below on pages from official Service Time Tables. These also indicate the corresponding bell code used by the Signalman to describe the train type, when informing the neighbouring Signal Box of the train entering their section."

Gah! But of course it is, thank you! I'd simply failed to spot the stone ready under the gantry...or the lifting shears hanging from the gantry truck, etc. This is part of the issue with searching galleries online - the urge is to hoard as much information as possible in one hit (partly because I'm not always certain how I arrive at the various corners of the internet I find myself in!). This is the point in creating a repository here, but it goes to show how much can be missed at first glance. ...is perfect! Many thanks, I've added a link to them in the station bit of the BoA post There's even a Youtube review/tutorial for the kit! Just a quick message today to apologise for not editing and captioning the AVF and BoA posts, which I had hoped to be done over the weekend. I'm going to blame Old Maps and Britain From Above for being as distracting as they are a powerful combination. So much to be learned...at least some of which is what I aimed to find out... Cheers all, Schooner

So, about this photo: . The shed itself - why two road? Initially I had assumed that in being a broad-guage shed, there was simply room for two roads when converted to standard guage...but here it is. I thought a goods shed was a covered space in which certain loads could be transferred from road to rail under cover via a platform - how does a road with no platform access fit in to this? Then the frame outside the shed...a loading gantry? What for? What's the lifting screw (?) on the RH of it all about?! Are those two pulley sheaves in the centre of the upper beam? The crane...a recognisable design to anyone? I think it had changed by c.1910 to the box-girder design seen in many of the photos up above, but I'd love to know more about it No sign of any sleepers - fully ash ballasted? Looks very light-coloured...? Note to self: look up the Bradford quarries to see when production ceased. I 'd not planned a stone yard at BoA as I was under the impression it had gone by my period, but I should check. Note also the vertical timbers on the shed, against the horizontal ones shown in later pics. Find out when and why the change. Schooner

Bradford on Avon: A small but affluent wool town for over a millenium, Bradford provides the focal point on the layout between Bath and Frome. By the chosen period, the wool mills had all closed down, with some being repurposed (Kingston Mill* became Stephen Moulton's rubber factory in 1848 which went on to supply rubber for buffers, springs and hoses to the GWR) but many becoming abandoned. The railway arrived slowly, with earth- and engineering-works, station and goods buildings being completed by the Wilts, Somerset and Weymouth Railway in 1848 but the line was only opening in 1857, after the GWR's official take-over of the WSWR in 1850. Hence the following view of the railway buildings senza railway, captured by a Mrs E. Tackle in 1850, and George Ashmead's map of 1837, adapted c.1850 to show the then-current state of play: *Kingston Mill, c. 1500 feet ENE of the existing station, also being the site of the 1834-proposed GWR BLT at Bradford; from Thingley Farm outside Chippenham to a "field near the Gas Works in the part of the parish of Trowbridge called Islington, with another branch thereout from the south- western extremity of Kingston Farm adjoining the town of Bradford": ....anyway, by 1852 the line had come so far... ...but no further, until legal action in that year (largely won by the GWR, the Bradford-Bathampton branch excepted, despite an appeal in '53) compelled the GWR to finish the work they'd started. By 1857 this was done - double track (broad gauge Brunel's Standard Gauge, of course) on baulks and transoms to Bradford, single track on sleepers every 3' onward to Bathampton (despite the line being designed and built for double). Colonel Yolland inspected it on the 16th Jan and found it wanting, but a fortnight later he returned and deemed it fit for passenger traffic. This first service, almost certainly headed by a Firefly, ran on Monday 2nd of February and was reported by The Wiltsire Times of the 7th thus: "On Monday last the line between Trowbridge and Bath via Bradford was opened for traffic The first train arrived here soon after 7.00 am and 10 trains are registered to run, viz 5 up and 5 down. Considerable excitement prevailed throughout the day, on the arrival of each train the railway station was besieged by hundreds of eager spectators. The celebrated Bradford brass band played lively airs at intervals during the day, and as often as might be heard the sound of the merry church bells. A good dinner was provided in the evening by Mr J,C. Neale of the Swan Hotel. We learn that the inhabitants of the town are not contented with the list of fares laid down by railway company; for a return ticket from Bradford to Bath a distance of 9 miles, a fare of 3/3d is demanded, whereas from Trowbridge to Frome, a similar distance, the price is only 1/6d. The line curves away from the main about one mile from Trowbridge station through Bradford, Avoncliff, Freshford, Limpley Stoke to the junction at Bathampton where it joins the GWR to Bath etc., passing 3 times under the Kennet and Avon Canal and 6 bridges by extensive viaducts over the river Avon." It is reassuring that bizarre and extortionate rail fares are as old as the railway Lovely snippets from the same year, June 27th and July 25th respectively: "On Monday 22nd this unusually quiet town was greatly enlivened by an excursion train which stopped at the Bradford station on its way to Weymouth. Here it was joined by the brass band belonging to the town, to whom great credit is due to for the very praiseworthy way in which they enlivened the pleasure of the day. The weather was remarkably favourable but a goodly number of passengers (150-200) found difficulty in obtaining seats and it would have been easier if rail carriages had been awaiting the train, and it would have been given greater satisfaction." ...and... "Yesterday morning a monster train from Bristol, Bath and Bradford passed our station on its way to Salisbury. It consisted of about 30 carriages, propelled with two powerful engines. The train was a very heavy one and must have conveyed about 2,000 persons. Our neighbours at Bradford a short time ago expressed themselves to be annoyed with the accommodation they received on an excursion to Weymouth, on this occasion they have been preferred. However, many persons from Trowbridge we believe availed them selves of the privilege by obtaining tickets at Bradford." 1874 brought about the change to Standard Gauge, the work being completed over 18-hour days between 18th-22nd June by 1,800 men working in gangs of twenty or so, each covering a mile to a mile and a half of track. The work was staggered, to enable (reduced) services to run on the remaining broad guage line, as in the photo of Trowbridge station, above. 1877 brought a new 30-lever signal box... ....and 1878 saw the replacement of the timber-framed original bridge over the Avon to the West of the station in iron: lovely period Frith Collection photo In 1885 the line was finally doubled to Bathampton, in anticipation of increased goods traffic through the Severn Tunnel which opened the following year. 1895 a West Curve was laid at Bradford Junction to enable Bristol Expresses to avoid Box Tunnel when covered in thick frost and still run without reversal, Swindon - Chippenham - Bath. Following a push by Canon William Jones, the town name changed to 'Bradford on Avon', hyphenated by the railway alone. And thus is the condition of Bradford about 1910, the intended period of the model. Station buildings: Ideal Metcalfe kits (many thanks Dana!) Follow the design of Twyford, but built entirely in Bath stone: Goods Shed and Yard: With Abbey Mill in use (tall smoking chimbley, centre), pre-1902 Relevant discussion here, from which: Other two-road GWR sheds to investigate: Challow, Chippenham, Newbury, Par (although this sounds like it might be for other reasons), Ross-on-Wye, Tiverton, Yeovil Mike-the-Stationmaster on likely traffic paterns "...True an Up train could possibly be run round using the two crossovers but the distance between them was not very great so it would only be possible with a. short train unless train was split. I would think that at one time Up trains might possibly have called to pick up urgent traffic, and maybe even to set down shed traffic, but the easiest way to shunt the yard was by using a Down train hence Westbury being the serving yard. I have just checked the 1891 STT (Service Timetable) and a number of Up Goods and coal trains were booked to stop at Bradford but in every case except one ( a 10 minute stop) it was only for 5 minutes. However in the Down direction three Goods trains called and the shortest time there was 15 with a morning train (from Westbury) being booked 20 minutes. It was later than the early morning Up trains and would obviously have been able to properly shunt any traffic they dropped as a simple detachment." The entire station staff, photographed inside the goods shed, c.1910 Three 1930's-but-useful (and interesting anyway) photos from Britain From Above here (really good one, can identify PO wagons and lots of activity), here and here The following photos, HC Casserly, 1926, are broadly representative but provide useful yard and shed details: Traffic: These Quarrying, woolen cloth, rubber production, brewing, ironfounders and engineers, leather, sawmills. Useful links: BoA Museum The wonderful Freshford.com Frith collection - an amazing collection, well worth a visit Kelly's Directory, 1911 - 1903, '07 and '15 also available. 1907 extract, '15 available and misc info here. STOP PRESS: In the '11 Directory (I have yet to check the others) Midland Railway Company is listed as a carrier. Does this mean that MR provided a service (an open wagon? A van? A road service? A choice?!) to carry parcels up to Bath, to be loaded on to a train at Queen Square? Wool and Coal - why BoA, Trowbridge and Frome lasted so long in the textile industry? Up on the fast archive - potential gold mine to be explored when poss... Cheers, Schooner

I don't know What are your thoughts? EDIT: I wonder if a 009 motor bogie would fit inside a stone block on a quarry trolley...or even a horsebox, as below, to allow empty trolleys to be worked with visual coherence...and I wonder if the harness traces could be made strong and rigid enough to hold the team of three horses just above the level of the track... Or perhaps use a coffee pot (see below) and rope-shunt the incline down to the Avoncliff stoneyard? Or all the above in combination... A problem for when I can have a physical play with the bits involved I feel, but very open to suggestions. Cheating is top of my list at the moment. There's only one 'proper' wharf on the layout, that at Box: ...which would make a cool little (!) layout all by itself. It isn't intended to serve an operational purpose*, so could be one large static diorama, as accurate as possible, including horses! This would then free Avoncliff up to be the 'fun' operational stone yard (smaller, simpler, easier, but functionally identical), with trains going there to pick up the stone that goes out to the system (Westmoreland, primarily). *Box tunnel seemed a given (how else would one lose the main line to London?!), and the Wharf was right there so it felt churlish to leave it out. However, access there will be minimal, it would only be scenic, and really the line should disappear into Box Middle tunnel, so it will probably be cut... Useful links: Choghole.co.uk, where I found many of these images and where many more reside. It's a fascinating site well worth a look even if, like me, your interest in quarrying is only passing. Scanman's inspirational stone yard Shunter! Finally found some really good collated information here. If you have a spare 5 mins, well worth a quick read It seems like the loco pictured below, at Ely, Glamorgan, in 1905, might well be The Box Loco, "...about the ugliest piece of machinery it is possible to conceive of." Built, probably to a Chaplin design if not by by them, before 1870 (when it is first mentioned, in the wonderful notice for a chapel fundraiser and reporting thereof in the Bath press, as in the link above) but probably after 1863 (when its only known driver, a George Mould, was still noted as working as a carter). The tramway on which it worked was laid in 1866, entering Pictor and Son's quarries through a relatively new (dug by 1859) entrance at Clift, so that all ties together quite neatly. The loco was only used underground, as the angle of the beds sloped down away from the entrance, meaning the load was against the gradient, and there were some steep gradients over a fault in the bed. From the surface to the wharf, gravity and horses. A normal max weight of a block from these quarries was 6 ton, not including the ton or so of trolley - this seems to be about what a team of 3 horses could manage. However 10 ton blocks were available by special order - strongly indicative that the loco worked the trolleys from bed to surface. "Clearances in the Clift roadway are tight in places, it is likely that the locomotive’s basic parameters were similar to those of a standard quarry trolley, ie 8 foot 6 inches long, 4ft wide, a wheelbase of 4ft 3in and wheel diameter of 1ft 8in, the height to the crown of the entrance arch is 7ft 5in. The tramway gauge was 2ft 5½in, the proximity of some pillars on some bends left little room for outside frames and cranks, a belief supported by two quarrymen’s graffitos depicting the locomotive. Both show wheels outside the frames, one, incredibly, shows a longitudinally-mounted 3-cylinder engine complete with pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft and valve rods, looking remarkably like a launch engine. Other features shown include the regulator, safety valve, hand brake, brake shoe and headlamp. The other graffito depicts a locomotive with a traction engine type footplate and bunker. Reduction gearing between the crank shaft and driving axle seems probable." - same source. Can anyone make out the last word of the inscription? "George Moulds With His Bloody Old Sh...?" The loco worked underground at Box for 27 years before being sold on for £40 - apparently rather more than its scrap value, suggesting further work and, long story short, lends credence to the idea of the Ely loco and the Box loco being one and the same. ...so...having found all that out it seems totally unrealistic to even try to depict it...but...it seems a crying shame not to have traffic moving on the tramway across the aqueduct. I'd just need an excuse for Clift Quarry's shunter to have ended up at Westwood Quarry... Given what's happened to the geography around here it's not impossible the two have linked up underground...! It's not right, and there's a small pang of guilt at that, but I think it would be 'better' to have an operational tramway down to an operational siding. Very very open to suggestions But it would be fun...and until I think of a way to represent convincing horses to work Avoncliff, I was toying with the idea of asking very nicely for a 009 version of Newman Minatures' Head Wrightson shunter, or perhaps this little beauty might do the trick (courtesy of RT Models): Rolling stock: Wooden trollies, dimensions c.8 foot 6 inches long, 4ft wide, a wheelbase of 4ft 3in and wheel diameter of 1ft 8in as above: Cheers, Schooner

So, to start the real business of the thread where the whole project began: Avoncliff: A small hamlet in West Wiltshire, now the idyllic home of a single-carriage halt station lying in a narrow wooded valley alongside the Bristol Avon with an aqueduct carrying the Kennet and Avon Canal over the top of both. Formally, however, it was a busy strecth of river, then canal, then railway. The halt was built in 1906 (hence not shown above, it was East of the aqueduct, roughly where the embankment is above the 419. Please see pics below for clarification) perhaps to cater to the 60 souls working at the stone yard. While today the focus is on leisure, Avoncliff's histoy is all work. The Doomsday book mentions a mill here, and by the mid-1200s annual rent of 18 shillings and 7 sticks of eels was paid direct to Winchester Cathedral (in whose estate the area lay) by Reynold of Cliff and Henry of Cliff. For a long while the only structures were the weir flanked by mills and the inn to cater for those fording the Avon below the weir. The mills supported the building of cottages nearby, but the first major developement was the arrival of the canal around 1795. Construction of the aqueduct took place 1797-1801 under the direction of John Rennie and John Thomas, with the canal opening in 1810. The railway was authorised in 1845, completed in 1857, and first station opened on the 9th of July,1906. Anyway, to business! 'Station' History: Quoted from Trevor Turpin's article at https://www.avoncliff.co.uk/ "As readers will know, the single track line through the valley was opened on 2nd February 1857. In June 1872 it was converted to standard gauge, 4’81/2”, and finally to the present double track on 17th May 1885. However, the station itself wasn’t built until 9th July 1906. What prompted its construction? Rumour has it that the GWR Chairman was staying at the Hotel and demanded a station be built, but the hotel (The Old Court) didn’t arrive for another 20 years. Was it perhaps that the stone yards serving Westwood Mine on the other side of the aqueduct may have contributed to its origins? Whatever the reason – anyone got further thoughts? – it was originally built as low wooden platforms to be used by autocoach or railmotor operated trains. An occupation crossing was provided for farmers (still used in the 21stcentury even though the crossing has long gone!), but passengers were expected to cross the line by the aqueduct. Following a request from GWR to the Board of Trade in June 1906, the station was inspected by Colonel Yorke on their behalf who reported “I have inspected the new Halte at Avoncliff on the Bradford Branch of the GWR…two platforms…14” above rail level, no shelters but the platforms are provided with lamps and name boards. The Halte is suitable only for, and should be used only by special rail-motor cars fitted with folding steps”. The platforms were subsequently raised to standard height and shelters were provided." I haven't found a definitive date yet for the platform re-build, but the 1911 WTT only has railmotors calling at Avoncliff if memory serves so it would be depicted as described above. These are the only period images I've yet found, held (and hosted) by the wonderful Frith Collection. The first one is particularly fine Note not just the dapper young gent, but the signal cabin, shed, cranes, tramway gradient and of course the stacked stone: There's precious little information on the yard, so these photos are a great source. (More on the history of the pub, including how and when it got named The Cross Guns, can be found here.) Representative phtos from Corsham, which, though of much larger scope, contains useful details: The yard was fed by a steep tramway coming down from Westwood Quarry, as below: after the bottom corner was a - passing? - loop; trailing canal wharf siding; then across the aqueduct to the stone yard. The aqueduct Designed by John Rennie, chief engineer John Thomas ('The Double Ent-John-dres') and built 1797-1801. It consists of three arches and is 110 yards long with a central elliptical arch of 60ft span with two side arches each semicircular and 34ft across, all with V-jointed arch stones. The spandrel and wing walls are built in alternate courses of ashlar masonry, and rock-faced blocks. Ancliff Square, the large building in the photos at the end of the post, started out life as, probably, a farm house. These was extended with East and West wings and in the 1801 census housed 17 families of weavers; Bradford Union Workhouse in 1836; a convalescent hospital in 1917 and a hotel in 1924 before being converted to private appartments in 1951. I'm not entirely sure how it could be modelled as a workhouse yet, but might give it away as a hospital! As would the inclusion of Bittern, the barge used to transport at least the first intake of invalids from Bath to Avonciff and also for excursions to Bradford on Avon and beyond: There's more than one story* I've come across of soldiers being aided in their recovery by local publicans to such an extent that even the barge proved too difficult a mode of transport, and they ended up being stretchered back to Ancliff Square along the towpath! Although out of my stated date range, I'm not ruling out at least the option of stretching it out a little to allow some reference to the First War for variety's sake *although very possibly the same story twice... Canal GWR-owned but still, as far as I can tell so far, in functional repair and operational. A point of interest to me is the distinctive character of Bittern and the other Kennet and Avon barges in trade I've found period photos of (the ones from Bradford are a little dull, so here's one from Hungerford ) - obviously distinct from the more modern, uniform (and therefore boring) Midlands-influenced narrow-boat designed with which I am more familar. Links: https://www.avoncliff.co.uk/archives/2614 - useful future reading https://www.westwoodclub.org.uk/history - likewise http://www.monkton-farleigh.co.uk/ac_home.html - the book that started this trouble in the first place

Thank you - all good stuff to keep in consideration

Wow! Might be early days, but seems like you're off to a very positive start. I'm sure you've come across this already, but in case it's of interest this is the freight-generating system used on David Hyde's Deresley, not unrelated in approach: Yum Interested party over here!

Just realised I predicted the size of this three months ago with my first post here, before I'd started putting the bits together. There's something slightly irritating about that, like when Mary Poppins' reflection winks back at her...

Too kind Titanius, I hope it proves diverting ...mind you, I seem to have missed the mark on one vital aspect of the "little empire" premise... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Post cleared to make room for one with useful information in it Text moved into post above...

Hi Mike, Thanks for taking the time to have a look and share your thoughts - much appreciated - and you're quite right, it's totally impractical On 1) Well noted! I started off with the idea of a little empire, on which most storage could be on scene...but with this behemoth I quite agree that significant off-stage storage would be vital. To this end I've thought that fiddle yards would take up a goodly amount of the available space between the scenic faces of the hollow square that forms the basic layout, roughly as above. Given what the lines need to do in that void, it would be 4-6' wide for most, if not all, the run - lots of space for storage*. I forgot to mention, but for this version if it's not copied off a map then it's not scenic and will be hidden from normal view This should hide the more cheat-y elements, excuse some tighter radii etc...? *the trackplan of which I feel nowhere near qualified to even contemplate starting to begin to wonder about how to think about tackling... 2) It's of some reassurance to me that those were exactly the fag-packet distances I came up with too! To build at scale would not only be prohibitively excessive on several levels...but I also have doubts on whether it would be any fun at that kind of size, even ignoring the ratio of maintenance time to playing time. Might it not feel a bit too much like work, with someone else getting all the excitement somewhere out of sight? 2mm would be one way forwards, but not one I'm naturally drawn to. With a little more messing about with the geography, a bit of modeller's license and a measure of compression**, I think runs of 40' and 50' for in- and out-side would be possible...and maybe desirable. Still vast and intimidating, but something that it feels might just be within the realms of possibility, more manageable to operate and more enjoyable to own, without losing too much of the sense of trains coming from and going to places on the layout with real purpose. **about the same 30-40% as I'd use for train length, where 6ish carriages would represent a prototype length of 9-12 etc Anyway, thanks again for taking it seriously enough to respond! It's nice to have an excuse to think through it all again Schooner

Just to round this thread off: I think I've come to a natural stopping point in arranging all these pieces into self-contained system. A practical layout it is not, but it has been fun to mess about with The 'final' Grand Plan I'll attach below, and I've started a new thread in the Pre-Grouping forum as a place to start collating all the other information that I'll need on prototypes, WTT, wagons, signalling, water tower design, local sheep marking etiquette etc etc etc now that the layout design bit is drawing to a close. So, you thought previous versions were ridiculous? Check this out...! Cheers and gone! Schooner PS. Forgot to say, but this time the map copies represent the scenic sections and all light grey represents non-scenic track behind back scenes/under scenery etc

The best housekeeping format feels like fewer but often-edited posts. Expect changes This one is just a general introduction to a burgeoning Western empire... Don't panic! I'm not going to build it! Time: 1905-1915 Place: North Somerset/West Wiltshire; South Devon Lines: GWR London - Bristol; Bathampton branch; Reading - Taunton; Exeter - Plymouth; Kingswear branch; SDJR Bath - Templecombe (Bournemouth) Reason: Fun, and provide a bit of a distraction from the real world The playing with my jigsaw of bits of geography (all taken from period 1:2,500 OS maps, courtesy of old-maps.co.uk) has been, and still is, and gently enjoyable process. However, I should stop at some point and feel I'm probably about there: it's pretty coherent, covers just about everything I could ask of it...and I've run out of junctions! This means it's time to move on, for which I would benefit from a place to collate information. As a layout, I can't imagine it ever being built whole (at least in the physical world; digital perhaps) but would like to keep the idea of the whole system alive so that as and when life provides an opportunity to get back into modelling in a meaningful way I'll have plenty of the legwork done, can pick a section that suits current constraints and get cracking! That won't be for some little while though, so plenty of time for meandering digressions My work keeps me on the move a lot, so I'm over-reliant on the internet both for gathering and keeping track of learnings. I'm reaching the point where I look up the same thing repeatedly because I've forgotten details and haven't put it somewhere safe, so I'm hoping to use this thread as a place to draw together and hold useful titbits, photos, links to external websites etc...and perhaps benefit from having it reviewed by those more experienced and knowledgeable than myself (anyone at RMWeb!). I'm hoping to upload a fair few pics, none of which (at least initially) will be mine - I will credit as best I can where they're not watermarked, but will happily take advice if there are norms I unwittingly breach. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ S'pose I better start with a quick bit about the plan above, and the ideas behind the layout in general: In the plan, everything stolen off a map is meant to be scenic, and to some degree (as yet undecided really) representative of the actual place. Everything that's a light grey line is out of sight, the wings and flies of this Western theatre, to allow the rest of the network/country to be faked as required. The whole lot is representative only, and thought has so far really only gone in to the arrangement of the pieces of the puzzle, not trackwork etc An awful lot left to work out, but I feel the bones are now in place. EDIT: With the belated realisation that off-stage could be below-stairs, as it were, all the non-scenic layout should be viewed as a very movable feast! As for the idea behind the whole thing...ummmm...well... ...I thought it might be fun to focus my daydreams of returning to railway modelling one day on a particular project. I settled on Avoncliff at a time when the stone yard was still busy and the canal in at least functional repair, for reasons that I'm sure will become relevant at some point, but I'll gloss over for now. ...then I thought that as Bradford on Avon is not far away, nor a large station, it could lend both charm and operational interest to a (already large, at about 12-15' a side in my head) L or U shaped layout... ...but if I went for a U, then three sides surely equals three areas that could be modelled...so perhaps Bathampton junction could be referenced... ...but although Bathampton is aesthetically pleasing, as a station/yard it doesn't add a lot not already covered by B-O-A, so perhaps I keep the junction but actually model Bath... ...and Bath goods yard... ...and Westmoreland stone yard, to provide the Ying to Avoncliff's Yang... ...and I just sort of forgot to stop... The locations chosen all fill nebulous criteria to varying degrees: personal resonance geographical relevance operational independence and inter-dependence smaller prototypes (with a hope of being able to keep more closely to them; and if Trowbridge has a shed, turntable, storage roads, coal and water, then what would one gain from Laira?...and I just prefer them what I think of as 'fudge factor' - of being able to represent other places (hello Frome) ideally had a suitable station close to a point of scenic or operational interest (B-o-A has Avoncliff; Kingswear has Noss etc) so that it provided options (for scenic breaks; operational variety, functionality and narrative integrity; splitting the uber-layout into smaller chunks, to have viable layouts as small as 5 feet; places for trains to run past or to, depending. There might've been a couple more things I thought this 'primary and secondary location' thing helped, but if I've stopped caring what they were I don't see why you should have to start! have useful curves nearby I could nick to join the whole lot up whilst keeping the spirit of each area...and kept a reference for landscape/back scene handy! ...also, some of them just appealed and later turned out to have other benefits (looking at you Midford section of the SDJR, with your pleasing contrasts to the Bathampton branch) It is entirely possible that, were this layout ever to be built as shown, I would aim for faithful replicas of the real world...but equally likely that they could provide [nothing more than] inspiration to fill the requirements of the area - 'port', 'small industrial siding', 'engine shed' and so forth. The latter approach lends itself to a 'proper little empire', which would be a more achievable aim in a smaller space, I think. I see myriad benefits to choosing the early 1900s, which again I'm sure will become apparent as we go on. I have a bit of a thing about both maritime history and, for want of the a better phrase, 'industrious countryside' - the surprising productivity of places that now seem timeless rural idylls, supported by the most amazingly intricate logistics and support networks. Mix that lot together, and here we are! What a load of guff... Cheers Schooner

What a pleasure it's been to spend the last hour or so catching up with your build, Chuff! Not remotely connected to the SDJR thing I logged into RMWeb to check, but so much more fun: there is a joy to be had from just looking at your work. Mind you, a part of me dies a little with each photo...the quality of your modelling, the precision and skill you demonstrate across the board will forever be beyond me Bloody well done so far mate, you can be very proud of your layout and your work. Can't wait to see what's next! All the best, Schooner

Less is more, absolutely! Although mileage varies, and who's to say what 'right' is but the owner, it seems your preferred ratio of landscape to layout is close to mine Might I ask a couple of cheeky questions? what are your (plural!) thoughts on convex vs concave running lines in relation to baseboard edge? I'm wondering as much about the impression of distance and viewing options as any practical considerations. would you mind sharing any of Mr Rice's other ingredients for ML modelling happiness? Got main lines on my mind, but I'm currently operating in a book-free environment, which hampers learning opportunities somewhat... Looking forward to seeing the next iteration of Hannet Purney Cheers, Schooner EDIT: Not that it really matters, but it seems to me that 'right' lies in the direction of something that looks like it was laid out by Mr Brunel but acts like something designed by Mr Freezer. As ever, compromise reigns supreme but if one manages to tick both boxes then tea and medals time!

Thanks for the swift and helpful response, and the *agree* As it happens, I was referring to the Dovetail Games offering rather than N3V's Trainz in hope of a comparison...but no matter as you've kindly confirmed my general impression that whilst each has devotees, Trainz offers more to a route builder. As a result, it's downloading as I type. Looking forward to getting to grips with it Cheers, Schooner

Very nice! Sem (or, indeed, Annie or anyone with an opinion), two quick questions if I may: how would you rate TS2019's route editor, and how would you rate its utility as a layout-planning tool? I ask because I'm in the (very) early stages of thinking through an (over) ambitious layout and was hoping to use a digital facsimile as a testing/proving tool at some point, but I'm unsure if this is a viable process... Cheers, Schooner

That's been my song of 2019, by a margin. Also a decent melody to whistle, particularly if a couple of people about the place recognise it Best wishes to all in the community facing tough times Schooner

Sometimes the *like* button isn't enough: Exceptional work on your inspirational layout, Martin. Please accept my congratulations for finishing the trackwork, it's some achievement and must be a great feeling, and my envy...for everything All the best for the works to come, Schooner

Not much time for SCARM, or much detailed thinking at all really, recently. That's not stopped me messing about with ideas for the overall layout of the thing. So far I seem to be strolling down two distinct avenues, one I've started thinking of as a 4mm approach, the other 2mm...I think you'll see why in a moment. Note: I've not drawn baseboards or back-scenes in a bid to improve clarity. Light grey line is intended to show non-scenic sections, thick for double and thin for single track (apart from outside Teignmouth Station, which I've just notice should be double track to the scenic break!). Hopefully it is apparent where these would be, but please do ask if not and I'll do my best to draw them in a useful fashion. The 4mm version currently looks something like: This intended to show the relationship of the respective areas (not as trackplan!) for a home layout running around the edge of a large room, with a peninsula in the middle. Bath (station, goods and stone yards), for example, would almost certainly be significantly compressed to allow some space between it and Bathampton, which itself could well just be the junction and a refuge siding rather than a close model of the prototype. Box likewise could, space depending, just be the tunnel entrance and I wouldn't be disappointed. Still a large layout, but please do season the above with a pinch of salt, it's currently just a picture It seems the main circuit is fairly settled now. This is where the idea for a systemic layout formed, and the run with which I am most comfortable - it maintains a good level of coherence (both geographic and up/down), varied operations and traffic and is all set in glorious, industrious, countryside. It is the 'main stage' in my head: local goods and passenger services being the normal cast, with guest appearances from GWR mainline, named and special services (being stored in and run from the fiddle yard, representing London, departing from the 'top' for normal running, 'bottom' to mimic the diverted route). Express services get to stretch their legs between Bath and Frome on the 'Western' section, potentially not calling at either, whilst stopping services can run a decent shuttle between Bath and Frome via Bradford on Avon. A steam railmotor could use the same route but call at Avoncliff and Bathampton, if modelled. Plenty of scope for freight workings along the same routes, with industries in the various towns needing served, and Avoncliff stone yard/sidings providing both visual and (gentle) operational interest. There has been a recent addition to this section, in the form of the engine shed from Trowbridge being bolted on to Frome Junction. This is because I felt that whilst there is, potentially at least, decent enough stock storage on the layout (particularly at Bath and Frome Junction sidings), motive power was somewhat limited by the single sheds at Bath Goods and at Frome, which didn't seem to allow for much more than a station pilot and a tank engine or two. Trowbridge Shed presented itself as geographically handy, but also small considering full suite of amenities and tying in well to the 5 or so roads of the sidings at Frome Junction. The trackwork for this area will require some serious consideration, but is a headache for another day I'd welcome feedback on options here, however. The more difficult run, by far, is that to Kingswear. A straight run would be difficult, as a key feature is the descent of the line into the terminus. The lack of starting altitude meant coming straight off Frome wasn't (to my mind and skill-level) achievable. Most sensible then might be a purely scenic climbing run from Frome out along the peninsula boards...but I'd also love to be able to model docks large enough to justify a couple of dock tank engines, and have been eyeing up Teignmouth for some time - as with Trowbridge, it's a small version of a 'proper' prototype. The above is an attempt to crowbar a section of the Teign in to the layout, with a helix (not actually shown on this version, sorry) to gain the height necessary for all the viaducts down the Dart at Maypool and Noss. Frankly, trying to have both the rivers Teign and Dart represented may well be too much, but I'm greedy and have plenty of time to mess about with options. All suggestions welcome! I've attempted to deal with some of these difficulties in another version, which I think could only really be achieved in 2mm, and so I have started to think of it as such. This would be viewed from the outside for the 'Wessex' bit, and the inside for the Devon sections, with a back-scene between back-to-back sections on the three sides: This is very much the Kitchen Sink version! I love the idea of it, dislike the complication and have reservations about whether it's even worth spending time thinking through the practical aspects - is it all just too much? It provides so many options, but would it ever be possible to take advantage of them? The 'Ersatz Radstock' bit bottom left is to try to merge the fact that the branch leaves Frome as the GWR Radstock branch, but crosses over the GWR main line West of Bath as the SDJR into Bath Green Park. I'm inclined to think of it as SDJR only, swap the realism for variety, and not worry about representing that the two lines come together at Radstock...but perhaps there is a way...? Hopefully the general gist makes itself apparent through the various routes available, and the knowledge that the left-hand fiddle yard is intended to represent Bath Green Park, Bristol, Cardiff and 'the South West' as well as Weymouth and Bournemouth; the right-hand fiddle yard to represent London (all of it ), as well as Newton Abbot, Plymouth and Penzance. Excuses to run GWR, and SDJR are there, and LSWR too if just thinking of the scenic runs through each country's countryside... That's plenty for now, should've stuck with bullet points...! Thanks for your time, all feedback very welcome and all thoughts invited Cheers, Schooner

Some potential ports of call for the above (although slightly biased to earlier, smaller, and sail-powered traffic) in the West Country: 'Proper' docks: Teignmouth (tidal) and Exmouth (locked) Rail-served quay: Topsham and Calstock Rail/river served industries: South Hams Brickworks and Morwellham Quay (copper mine) 'Scenic' quays: Kitley All are smaller prototypes for the services they offer, and all could take further compression if desired. Couldn't agree more with the general gist of this thread - it would be lovely to see the same accuracy on the water as on the rails - and there's been some really interesting information so far. Looking forward to more! Cheers, Schooner

I enjoyed every line of that post, drmditch, thank you!