ngaugenic

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That’s an awful lot of wiring running out to the layout and back.

…..or, you could just use the 2 wires of an accessory bus.

True, but I quite like the wiring part, I suppose I include designing and installing the infrastructure in my modelling experience and coping with a tangle or excess or wiring is part of that for me.

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Really helpful, clear, understandable and well drawn wiring diagrams for the MP1 motors, from Harlequin (Phil).

Is there a way to bookmark such images, I think  a lot of people would find it helpful...

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The power supply (red and black in the diagrams) is   DC or AC.   ie. whatever the turnout motor specifies (MP1 in this case).  

 

 

You can switch the DCC power to frogs using the purple/green shown connecting to rails on the left of drawing.

 

ok, that makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

@Ron Ron Ron  As stated at the top, I'm looking to mix and match dcc train control with point switching under manual control.  which I understand is a half way house but it's also what I would find fun to do!

That's great, thanks

And this works with dcc power on red and black?

Thanks for the input everyone, I think the MTB mp1s are what I'm looking for.  The running method I want to employ is driving a train by the zephyr and flicking switches for the points, so DCC alpha is beyond the level of automation I need, anything screen based is out.

Does anyone a wiring schematic for the MTBs in combination with a physical switch and led display of which way the point is set please?

Hi, I'm building a new n gauge layout with a focus on shunting operations and therefore many points and slips.

I'd like to operate the trains via dcc (I have a zephyr for this purpose) but control the point motors via a mimic/control panel with switches.  Cobalt point motors look almost ideal for this but the complication comes from powering electrofrogs.

The ip digital looks like it would do the job, can I combine these with a adfx decoder to simplify the wiring?  I think this would limit the longer wiring to just two wires with led and switch wiring kept at the control board with the adfx.    

Can I save money by using the ip analog?  I don't think so as it seems you can't run dcc power in/out of the analog, and therefore the frog connection is not going to be dcc either?  I think that's right.

This probably makes little sense, but I'm trying to get my head around the entire scheme from scratch and there are so many variations and overlaps that it becomes very difficult to draw up a plan from scratch!

So, what components would you employ to have train control on dcc and point control on manual switching please?

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You may be overthinking this.

I'll take that as a compliment, but in reality almost everything here is the product of underthinking!

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protect a level crossing if that's what is needed

It's intended to be a level crossing, I'm avoiding gradients in this build.

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A sprung hand-point with a foot pedal that can be held over by the shunter's body weight against the spring will be required to give access to the loco shed.

Why does the loco shed get special protection?  And shunter here means the man on the ground right?

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This move can be accomplished via the turnouts at each end, and as this area is likely to be 'inset' into the roadway surface of the quayside, a double slip will be hard work!

That's very true, the ladder would be there for flexibility in shunting operations if some part of the quayside is occupied.  The lower double slip could be crossing though...

Many thanks for your input @The Johnster, I can only imagine the number of times you've explained this to someone new to the modelling world!

Oldhaven Rev 3:  I'm quite happy with this line up and managed to include a single in/out line that swoops around to an arrivals/departure line .  This siding is 44cm in physical length which would allow for approx 7 vehicles, tank, brake and 5 trucks more or less.  Once the incoming train is in the siding a dock side shunter (03) would break down the train through the quayside run arounds and the sidings to the left.  Some trucks would be left quayside for a watery departure via a rail crane or unloading directly onto a ship.  Some would be left by the station to be transferred to road.  During these operations the tank would rest up in the loco shed or assist with shunting.

The passenger operations to the north would see a loco and 1 or 2 coaches intially and then when finances allow an emu perhaps to vary the incoming traffic.

I'd love to have the space to have room for an exit and return on the right hand side but that will be new-oldhaven at some point in the future!

The signal box is set by the entrance and exit from the block, signalling will be the next challenge, but the majority is going to be static ground signals governing the freight operations.  The passenger section and through road I imagine would be on "proper" signals..?

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For example, the above is okay, but the 'internal' entry/exit radius is too tight. The sorting yard looks big enough, but if it's an area of operational interest it'd be better to have it front-left, not rear-left. No clear spaces for the distinctive Newhaven sheds - although there clearly is room for them etc etc etc.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I spent a good year planning my layout, two years building it, and I'm still finding things to improve. And it's only an inglenook. And it uses @Harlequin's track plan! The point is, it's never perfect, but it's much easier to get it 'good enough' now than later :)

Both curves are at 25cm radius, so above 9 inch and the advertised 24cm minimum, and if it's past the manufacturers tolerance it's guaranteed to work, right!?

Everyone's help so far has been great, I can already feel my second revision will be a lot more fun than my first attempt.  Getting used to "planning" rather than just enjoying other's layouts is quite a learning curve.

I'll try to bring the sidings in front of the engine shed and build in more of a scenic break on the left hand side. 

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I'd separate the ferry terminal and hotel, putting the hotel on the left where the terrace housing block is now. A bit like Dover's Lord Warden Hotel but on a smaller scale.

 

 

Alternatives; perhaps a dockers' greasy spoon cafe, or a car park.  One is assuming there is no Ro-Ro facility, but the ships will probably be able to take a small number of cars craned into the hold.  Backscene up the hill to the left or your low relief terraced housing; hotels and guest houses for travellers wanting to get an early boat or coming off a late one.  The port will handle general cargo as well, so there could be a warehouse for this, 

Good idea for a hotel, this also allows a for bit of height in the centre of the layout, and a warehouse of some type also makes sense!

@Schooner, can I Ask how you got the ground effect here:

Stone sets is what I'm looking for along the quayside, changing at a hard edge to a scruffy dirty soil ground as you leave the port-side.

Oldhaven Rev 2: Heavily borrowing from Schooners first draft but adding in some details that I'd like to include and unfortunately removing a lot of the smoothness and skill of Schooner's effort.

Features I've necessarily included:  Arrivals and departure lines for the freight traffic.  Some motor transport with an access road. The ferry terminal and goods quay as before.  Fiddle sidings better connected to  departure lines then before.  Loco runaround for the passenger service. 

The signal box, loco shed and houses are sized to metcalfe kits.

What is happening in the middle I don't know yet.  Some open waste ground would balance the density elsewhere

@Nearholmer

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There I’m 90% sure you used to board up a short gangway thing from the quay, through a door in the side of the boat, all seemingly very casual.

Life was simpler in the past eh!  Some gangways stowed on the Northern quayside seems appropriate then.

That's a neater set of affairs!  And those cranes look monstrous for such a setting to my modern eyes.

Perhaps a stupid question but did foot passengers actually embark onto the ships?  Was it an elevated gangway? or walk along the quayside and avoid tripping on the rails/falling in the water?

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Quick question - are you committed to N?

I am, yes.  bought up some track and scenics already but mostly I prefer the zoomed out scale relative to OO.

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Separate passenger and freight connections to  the "rest of the world" is a most unlikely scenario,

There are clipped portions of many dock railways that have a goods section adjacent to a passenger section, that is what I was intending to model, but I take the point that by the mid century rail connections would mostly be shared .

The left hand portion needs revising!  The track plan I submitted above was a very first draft , first time with any rail, first time planning any practical model railway, and does need improving.  Current plan is a hard left turn to use some space along the next wall.

Wow, that looks amazing,  A lot more track than I put down! I like the combination of goods and passenger working. 

What are the dimensions on that setup though?  The length is strictly 175cm, 172cm that's the internal dimension of the shed.  The depth is flexible but above 40cm would start to be difficult to deal with in the space. I decided, cut and fitted the baseboard, so the depth is 50cm.  Some off-scene runoff would be nice to reorganise the traffic, can the platforms be shortened along with the right hand dockside loop?

Feel free to poke at it next week, I'm just accumulating track, scenics, point motors etc for now.

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

I can't say 'no'...but I am struggling to come up with problems to which the proposed track layout is the answer!

Good point!  I started by following a track plan I found and grew the extra parts to suit.

I want a setup where there is shunting work and with a small passenger shuttle.  The top half with the platform is a single island platform with a runaround for the passenger loco/multiple unit.  the bottom half is for freight operations, inbound goods would arrive on the arrivals line, a shunter would then pick apart this train using sidings A,B and D.  A train ready for departure would be made up in siding C.  This freight operation would be by an 03 or a tank engine.  Siding C is awkward to get to but I couldn't find a way of getting to the left of the siding without a spider web of trackwork

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Nope :) I do wonder what's happening off-stage to the left though, both in the modelled world in the real world. What's your plan for stock storage/management?

I can just about force a hard left turn leaving the area with a radius of about 10 inches.  Physically there are shelves in this area that be shifted but for now, phase 1, it will be hand of god to reorganise the next inbound traffic.

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

why do you want to model a dockside scene? Have I understood correctly that it's because of the mix of traffic it would permit? 

That's about it, mix of traffic and small scale operations.

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

Would breaking goods traffic down into marshalling (in a sorting yard) and spotting (on quayside sidings) suit you? It's prototypical, and can make for some engaging operation and excuse to run a few more locos than the real thing...something that often comes in handy!

This is very much what I have in mind!

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Your station platform could be extended to the left, to form a taper inside the running around loop. 

Yes, that platform layout is what is available in anytrain!  the platform would be formed to fill the run around loop with an overbridge and foot crossing to get to the ferry terminal

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Is the blue section the harbour, with the ferry berth on the terminal side of the projecting quay and the cargo wharf on the side that you have your cranes?

Yes, that's the idea, I can stretch the width of the jetty to include a larger crane but I was also wary of it dominating the scene?

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The idea of having more off-scene cargo facilities up-stream makes sense. Newhaven actually had cargo wharves, both to the north and south of the swing bridge and at an earlier period on the other side of the river.

Ipswich docks is similar, with a run of industry along the river and wharves.

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This photo, from the Our Newhaven site, shows the type of crane in use in the post WW2 era. http://www.ournewhaven.org.uk/page_id__1361.aspx?path=0p69p82p Newhaven was a busy port during the wars and the dock facilities were geared up to handle much greater traffic than before, especially towards the end of the war. The Newhaven - Dieppe route was the most direct to Paris.

I like the idea of the wider area justifying parts of the model that would otherwise seem out of place.

Thanks for the input guys. @RobinofLoxley, I've spotted his work thanks, lots to read through there.

@phil_sutters, That website looks great.  Newhaven is an inspiration for the scene rather than this being a replica of the site so I don't mind the river being on the wrong end. Also that would put the fun bits in a difficult corner!  

With regards to the infrastructure I've considered a couple of fixed swing cranes marked as circles on the plan, but might go extravagant an put in a wheeled crane to shift up and down the quayside.

@The Johnster.  Cheers for the signalling info, I'll try and put something down on paper to see how it would work.  In my head the two approach lines are because the passenger line leads to a town station and the mainline somewhere, whereas the goods line feeds round to more of the port along the river before joining up with the passenger line elsewhere...

to answer your questions: The platform is the rectangular object in front of the ferry terminal, the grey area would be a paved area for handling and storing unloaded goods, making this area something of a tramway...

To partly answer my own questions, there would be little or no signalling in the goods area but the in/out lines would have signalling to enter the scene.  And the passenger platform would have starter signals?  

And to add:

4) Would a signal box be on site here?

Hi, looking to build a quayside scene in a 170*40 space set in 1950s/60s early BR and have taken inspiration from Newhaven Harbour.  The atmosphere is a run down quayside that has Beeching left eye twitching and his hand reaching for the red pen.

I'm interested in some shunting work along the quayside with a quiet passenger line dropping the few ferry passengers at the harbour station.

Passenger operations would be run by a class 27/33 perhaps with a couple of carriages.  A class 03 shunter to run the trucks around.  A tank engine to haul the goods trucks back and forwards.

I've developed a first draft of the track layout below, something of an inglenook but using the extra length I've got available to make operations a bit smoother.   All track is to be peco code 55. The passenger operations would be on the top line, with the loco running around to return.  I have about 40cm in depth and this is flexible, but the length is the inside dimension of the shed (insulated/heated).

Any comments on the following very welcome:

1) the general railway operations, does the track layout "make sense"?

2) Any practical modelling issues you can see?

3) How would you go about signalling this setup?

(2mm sub forum)