Mark L Horstead

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I think the brake van's an L.N.W.R. type and the water tower - well, it's a water tower : - 

Where was that water tower?

The photograph is also useful for the junk around it.

Thanks again

7 hours ago, 73c said:

The mobile crane is possibly one of these - https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/628041110509966768/

Earlier photo showing the new box in 1954 - https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=36407&search=Nr.+Beckenham+Junction&category_id=64&page=5

Back of the new box, the front similar to that of Hither Green - https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=120750

Item in the 4 foot is known as a 'spider' it's to do with the 3rd rail, is the shorter and easy answer.

Peco dummy point motors SL-47

Resignalled around 72-73' I think

Excellent.

Thanks.

It will be a while before I have need of such a crane, but now I know what to hunt down.

The D1 photograph is one  of those that I received on Monday, but I lacked time to post any more last night. I also note that there is a pile of sand or something at the end of the platform in that photograph. It seems to have been a popular dumping ground.

The backside photograph of the signal box is also enroute. For some reason, it was only available as a print. All of the others that I ordered were available in digital form.

Thanks for the tip regarding Hither Green. I may order that photograph as well. The style is similar, but it's not the same. I have some other photographs of the Beckenham Junction box but have to re-examine them. I'm pretty certain that I have views of all four sides (or will have very soon), although none are head-on so determining basic dimensions may be a bit of a challenge. I may have a slide or two of my own from my 1972 trip but have to have a root through some stuff to find that box of slides.

Roger the rest.

This has been a good day at work, as well...

I received my digital photographs from The Transport Library on Monday and began looking at them. They are, overall, very helpful and interesting. They are good quality and allow me to zoom in quite a bit. More zoomability would be nice, of course, as would colour, but I'll take what I can get. I am very pleased with them, and the service.

I will only post the links to the advertising versions on The Transport Library website, to avoid (hopefully) any copyright problems, for discussion. Please feel free to correct any terminological or other errors.

British Railways Station View at Beckenham Junction in 1954 - General View East from Rectory Road - Lens of Sutton Dennis Cullum Collection shows a brake van on the left-hand side, some buildings in the yard and beyond, what appears to be a mobile crane at the back of the yard between a goods van and the massive (to me) starter signal array, some small trolleys up against the buffers,  point rodding, and the water tower half-way up the photograph on the right-hand edge.

I have yet to research the brake van, or look for a suitable model, preferably in kit form.

British Railways Signal at Beckenham Junction in 1949 - up MAIN starting signals, ( back of) - Lens of Sutton Dennis Cullum Collection shows much the same, less point rodding and water tower which are out of view. The mobile crane is in the same location but with five-year-fresher paint. The brake van is the uneven-planked Pillbox version. Mine, still bobbing around somewhere on the North Atlantic, is the regular-planked version. Perhaps I'll order another, for variety. I was pleased to see this one.

The most obvious change in British Railways Steam Locomotive Class 5MT 73081 at Beckenham Junction in 1959 - 15/05/1959 - Dr T Gough is the introduction of the colour light signal. I have yet to begin researching signals, but I am guessing that this one is both a starting signal and route indicator. The end of that platform seems to attract a variety of junk. Point rodding is also gone.  There is something between the rails of the nearest track sprouting a mass of cables and what appears to be a point motor on the other side of the third rail operating a single slip, and a couple more further up. I hadn't picked the single slip out on Google Maps Satellite view so I either missed it or it's now gone. The new signal box is peeking out from behind the old which, as the signals and point mechanisms have all been changed, could be only days away from demolition.

I am both happy and disappointed by that change - the the old signal would have looked very impressive in model form but the thought of having to scratchbuild it is more than a little daunting, and I know nothing about point rodding and there will be a lot of points.

If somebody could "point" (weak, I know) me to a source for suitable models of those motors I'd truly appreciate it, as I'd be hunting through websites for longer than it would take me to build the layout.

No more old signal box, but there doesn't seem to be any room for it between the new one and the tracks in British Rail Station View at Beckenham Junction in 1978 - View to junction from Rectory Road - Lens of Sutton Dennis Cullum Collection. That's probably just a photographic effect. The colour light signal (hidden behind the watermark) is a different type, and somebody's finally cleaned up the mess at the end of the platform.

More in a day or two...

On 02/05/2021 at 15:45, Ken.W said:

I believe the idea of the hexagonal 'STOP' road sign instead of the normal circular for signs giving orders is so that it's still distinguishable if the surface's covered in snow.

The origin is North American, and most likely US specifically.

While stationed in Lahr, West Germany from 1986 to 1989, I saw them on and around our two bases (Baden-Sollingen being the other one) and US bases.  Traffic fatalities were higher, per capita, in Germany than in Canada, but the Canadian traffic fatality rate in Germany was higher than the German rate (as we were told during our on-arrival written driving test) due to different rules and customs. That would indubitably have been the same for Americans. An excessive number of Germans were likely also killed or injured by confused or ignorant Canadian and American drivers, so adopting them in high-risk areas would have been prudent.

They seem to have spread from there, like an invasive species. I saw a few in France and Holland during my travels as well.

Interestingly, those in Germany, France, and Holland all had "STOP" on them. In Quebec, our French-speaking province, they say "ARRET". There is a language purity movement in that province which discourages the casual and natural adoption of English terms.

Lost out on bids for a blue 2EPB and a used 4CEP on Evil Bay, but am watching another used 4CEP (green). I'd like a blue/grey one as well, but am not seeing any.

My digital slides from The Transport Library have arrived, so I'll look through those tonight.

I am going to plan out a parts buy from Replica Railways for a 4EPB kitbash, and see what my best options would be for donor coaches. I think that Replica Railways bodies and chassis would be the best and cheapest way to go rather than full Bachmann ones. Comments and recommendations for that would be most welcome.

Roger.

Thanks.

1 hour ago, SED Freightman said:

I think you are correct regarding the run round and shunt move via platform 4 for the arriving train, this would take around 10-15 minutes from arriving in the Down Platform (No.3) and arriving in the Headshunt, assuming not only a suitable gap in Down trains, but also a gap in traffic on the Up Line for the loco to run round.  Once in the Headshunt, the train could be shunted in and out of the two CCD sidings as required, possibly the first move would be to set back and attach any empties, then place them out of the way in Platform 4 before positioning the loaded wagons as required. The return train could run directly from Platform 4 to the New Beckenham Spur and back to Bricklayers Arms, alternatively it may have been possible to run directly towards Kent House if required. 

Thank-you.

I'd not considered the empties in my exercise, but that makes sense. Where would the most likely place to drop the train be on arrival for the run-around move? I don't think that it would be done right in the station due to the location of the third rails, but there is not a lot of room at the west end of the platforms, either. I'll have to pay strict attention to the third rail locations on my layout (as I would have done anyway) to ensure reasonable safety for my miniature crews.

I ordered some Beckenham Junction photographs from The Transport Library this morning. All but one are digital. The one of the back side of the signal box was not available in that form.

I'd like to use them to generate some more discussion here, but do not wish to violate copyrights or generate any other form of offence. Is it alright to post the links to the advertising samples on their site?

One shows a Dance Hall brake van in 1949, with slightly lighter patches of paint where the "S" and "R" would have been, and one half of a private-owner wagon. I understand that at least most of these vans would be in departmental service by the early sixties, but would any have still been in regular use? I haven't come across a definite answer, but probably don't yet know where to look.

I also stumbled across some photographs that I copied from the interweb a few years ago while I was putting a Powerpoint tour guide together for my daughter, who was planning to visit there but never did. A couple of them show the last signal box while still under construction and with the old one, still in operation, on its eastern side. I think that I have enough photographs now, except for the top of the roof, but basic dimensions would be nice. There are also some teasing views of the goods yard, but too fuzzy to be of much value.

I found three Britannia Pacific 4EPB sets on E-Bay last night as well - a little pricey, though.  So far, the Replica Railways EPB parts still seem to be my best choice.

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Many ( green ) railway signs lasted well into your period - but not horsepower I just about remember one of the local milk rounds ( we had a choice ! ) having a horse and milk float in - presumably - the mid fifties but an electric float soon replaced the 'oss. ( My current - no choice now - milkman went back to electric power a few years ago.)

I don't remember horse-drawn vehicles in Beckenham, but there were still some horse-drawn milk carts in Stratford when we arrived in 1965. I cannot remember when the last one disappeared.

I do remember the electric milk floats, though, and constant warnings about them at school.

I was referring to horses for including a much-earlier period as a possibility. I'm rather liking the SECR products now on the market.

18 minutes ago, hobbyhorse said:

I'll dig out my old books that contain our turns, hopefully it's got the Beck Jun job.

 

Simon

Thanks tons.

No rush - I'm still a few years away from needing that, I think.

It looks like you are going to have a more fun weekend than me - I had a quick look at the Bredgar & Wormshill Light Railway site, and will revisit for longer soon.

Roger.

Thanks.

Was it a unique building, or a standard design? I'd really like to be able to track down a drawing, or an aerial photograph. I only have one ground-level shot so far, and will be ordering another soon, which should give me all four sides but I'd like to know what the top of the roof looked like, even if no potential viewer would.

The photograph about to be acquired shows what, to me, is the "back side", facing the route to New Beckenham. It's partially obscured by shrubberies, but that side won't be seen (much) once on a layout.

2 hours ago, hobbyhorse said:

The date would have been the early 80's, it was the signalman's error as he had thrown the point when we was halfway over it, it wasn't tracked so he didn't know we was on it, although he could of just look out of the box.

 

Simon

I thank you for joining in.

I've been trying to work out the shunting moves, for whichever way I end up depicting the yard.

I see the train arriving and being dropped by the locomotive, which would then cross over just east of the High Street/Southend Road bridge (the crossover no longer exists), run back and take the line to New Beckenham, cross back over just northwest of the signal box (whose windows did not see quite enough use, it would seem), then collect the hoppers, then pull them back towards New Beckenham on the down line.

Am I close?

Where would the hoppers be dropped?

How are they pushed into the yard? I can see no easy route. Eastward towards the northern-most passenger track (Platform 4?), then westward along the lengthy siding (head shunt?) parallel to the New Beckenham route, then back into the yard? It's not easy working through this on a too-small screen...

That seems to explain why the train departed back to Bricklayers Arms via New Beckenham.

How long did this take? Would regular trains be held back to permit this, or could the moves be squeezed into the normal schedule?

And when was the signal box closed and demolished?

18 hours ago, Rich Papper said:

A 4-EPB can be bashed together for a reasonable price using Replica bits. It's on my to do list one day inspired by this: 

Rich

I looked at that last night, and that might be the route that I take. And the parts are available and the prices are good.

3 hours ago, The Lurker said:

You've mentioned the steam hauled Golden Arrow a few times. The last time it was steam hauled was I think 11 June 1961 after which date, as Olddudders has already pointed out, there was no steam on the south eastern division. The last service was hauled by a rebuilt Bulleid light pacific "Appledore". 

I was a little over five, then, so that is in line with my early memories.

My grandparents encouraged my interest in trains, and may have caused it.

I want to depict the times that I remember, even if only vaguely, so picking 1961 or 1960 instead of 1962 as my starting year and ending at 1972 still works. My intent would be to run trains depicting more narrow time periods within that overall decade-plus, so tail-end-of-steam and all-green EMUs, the changeover from green to blue, and perhaps all-blue.

My research of and reading about earlier periods and some of the models now available have me wondering if I could depict those by swapping signs and other fixtures and horse-drawn vehicles for cars, though, but that would come much later, if ever.

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

the ability of being able to use the mineral wagons sat in a goods yard as a free storage facility

My father used to walk to Clock House and take the train to Elmers End for work (Muirhead Instruments). I remember seeing a mineral wagon parked there once - probably one of those free storage facilities.

So the coal moved out from London, then. That helps.

I'll probably have a few more questions about the details of this operation once I think about it, but right now, I have to dash off.

Thanks again, Everybody.

18 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Coal Concentration depots were a British Railways invention and were designed to end the practice of delivering small quantities of mineral wagons to individual stations for coal merchants to empty by hand.

 

Instead one yard would be selected to be the railhead for several stations and mechanical unloading facilities provided so that hopper wagons with self discharging equipment could be used. They were relatively successful but the rapid move away from coal for heating domestic houses in favour of natural gas or electricity rapidly made them obsolete in many places - and as the need for coal shrank more and more were closed.

 

If a Coal Concentration depot was set up at Beckenham Junction then most goods yards within a 10 mile radius would have shut as by the mid 1950s domestic coal was pretty much the only traffic most suburban yards ever saw.

Roger. The coal would them be moved locally by road?

We still had a coal fire in our last house in Beckenham. I remember my father lighting it on cold mornings, and standing very close until the heat began to expand outwards.

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

They're injection moulded polystyrene - nice'n easy like Airfix kits ............... "THIS ITEM MAY BE AVAILABLE SECOND-HAND ELSEWHERE" - or it might be worth contacting DC Kits direct : this is the only EMU on that page that Bachmann haven't produced so there might be a chance of a re-run some time - there must be demand !

The price seemed a little low for something of quality.

I shall indeed contact them.

I could also speed up a re-issue by the time-tested method of laboriously scratchbuilding one.

Thanks again

On 28/04/2021 at 10:30, SED Freightman said:

8K80 1050 (SX) Bricklayers Arms to Beckenham Junction arr.1110 - Worked by class 73, headcode 1E.

8K86 1205 (SX) Beckenham Junction to Bricklayers Arms arr.1232 - Worked by class 73, headcode 1E.

The inward service (8K80) was restricted to a maximum length of 26 SLU's as it ran round in the Down Platform with the loco shunting via the mainline crossover at the Shortlands end, before hauling the train back towards New Beckenham, prior to shunting the coal depot sidings.

I am trying to work this out in my head.

Where is Bricklayers Arms? All that I've found via Google Maps seem to be pubs.

What was done to the coal at the concentration depot?

I've located the crossover on Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland (nls.uk).

I'm also curious about the date of the map - post-war, at least, judging by the parking lot behind my grandparents' house at 2 Kelsey Square that was a residential area for the first couple of weeks of 1945 until an air-launched V1 struck.

6 hours ago, RFS said:

 

The 2-EPB consists of a motor brake  coach and a driving trailer, but a 4-EPB has two motor brake coaches so you can't just add two trailers. 2-EPBs did often work in multiple so a pair of them would provide a 4-EPB formation with no modifications - it's how I run mine. 

 

Here's a picture of a 6-EPB formation for example - https://railphotoprints.uk/p116820179/e55db9ff4

Yup. I got that from somebody's project thread somewhere on here. I have my little heart set on four-car sets, though. I'll be ordering a Bachmann 2-EPB fairly soon, and will look into my options then. I am not averse to cutting and carving.

9 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

As someone mentioned further up this thread, BR and Bulleid EPB units were completely interchangeable on the S.E.D. ( photo from 16/3/86 below ) .......... have you tried DC Kits : https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=131_224_139

 

Humbrol Acrylic BR Diesel Blue RC411 looks like it's meant to be standard 'Rail Blue' rather than any experimental shade.

 

The tectonic shift which moved Penge Tunnel adjacent to Beckenham Junction seems to have subsumed Penge East and Kent House stations - and my old school - while permitting restoration of the railway ..... odd that !

 

I had not come across the DC Kits link before. Unfortunately, "THIS ITEM IS NOT AVAILABLE CURRENTLY". Resin? Etched brass?

When did the paint change from plain blue to blue/grey? That does not look like the freshest of paint jobs, but I cannot remember seeing it. I always drove from Germany on my visits in the mid-to-late eighties and priority was always visiting family so I probably wasn't paying much attention.

I hope that you were not in school or anywhere close when the Great Shift occurred.

10 hours ago, 73c said:

ECS = Empty Coaching Stock.

Colour of ballast, I'd go with the light brown, years of brake block dust.

You may find more photo's here - https://boroughphotos.org/bromley/

This book may be helpful - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heyday-Stewarts-Lane-Its-Locomotives/dp/0711027919

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/stewarts-lane-depot-battersea-the-two-4-6-2-steam-news-photo/90747159

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/golden-arrow-train-on-its-trial-run-in-london-news-photo/107417033?adppopup=true

Steam and Electric 'Arrow - https://www.kentrail.org.uk/dover_marine.htm

Much appreciated.

I'd never have guessed ECS.

Light brown matches what I am seeing in some photographs. There's a chap who sells/sold, among other things, a very large variety of ballast at some shows - not that there have been any of those here, either, for far too long.  He matched colour to specific North American railways and geographic areas. The current ballast in the station looks so much cleaner than what was there in earlier days - it may have been the first ballast ever deposited there, judging by its coating. I intend to depict it that way, but do not know if it was thus only between the platforms or also out on the open road. Perhaps I shall stumble across a suitable colour photograph eventually.

I just ordered the Stewart Lane book. That must have been the facility that I remember passing many times between Beckenham and Victoria. I spent quite some time going through a Flickr album last night - I'm on page 25 of 80 - with a random collection of Beckenham-themed photographs. One of them showed a breakdown crane at Stewart's Lane and that triggered the memory. There were also some photographs of a row of old shops in Beckenham being demolished, but I could not place them, and later found out that there is a Beckenham in New Zealand that suffered some earthquake damage several years ago. I've copied and saved the links to useful railway-related ones and shall continue through that, and some other collections that I encountered on the way.

The Amazon.co.uk seller apparently does not ship to colonies. The cost from Amazon.com was around £30.00 (hasty conversion) plus shipping from the US. There weren't any copies at all on Amazon.ca. E-Bay.ca turned up a few, so I ordered one from a British seller who had the best price and shipping combination. I'll have it in a month or two.

I'll look at the other links later.

Thanks.

Yes, oops. I shall ask one less question in penance.

2 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Certainly no 3rd rail in the yard and probably not in the headshunt, the coal concentration depot had one siding which ran parallel to the platform 4 line, about 1/3rd of the way along it passed over the discharge hopper and then split into two short sidings, each of which would hold about 10 wagons.  The may have also been a short cripple siding branching off near the yard entrance, but as yet I cannot locate a plan of the CCD (coal concentration depot).  Certainly there would have been no hopper wagons (TOPS type HTV) prior to the CCD opening in 1966 and you can never have too many mineral wagons.  The old goods yard would certainly provide a greater variety of wagons and traffic, but model wise would require much more space, a plan showing the pre CCD yard layout is appended below.

 

Thanks. I found that map, or something almost identical, somewhere online a couple of years ago and Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland (nls.uk) last night - a really slick comparison.

Some north-south compression is going to be necessary, so a couple of sidings will have to be deleted and/or angles altered.

I enlarged prints of that map after finding it, but not quite to full 4mm scale.

After reviewing, at a more leisurely pace, my initial questions and the answers received, I now have the following questions and observations:

Would/could BR-pattern EMUs have run through Beckenham Junction?

Despite my preference for Bulleid-pattern EMUs, the Bachmann 2EPB would be the quickest and simplest option. I've previously gone through the applicable threads elsewhere here to investigate the possibility of splicing an extra couple of coaches in between, and recently received Bulleid Coaches In 4mm Scale from Stella & Rose's Books in Tintern, Monmouthshire as it was mentioned here and appears to be the best possible guide. If I remember correctly from my readings here, I may have to sacrifice a third coach to achieve the correct lengths of the other two so would be forced to build more four-car sets to use up the leftovers.

Has anybody seen/tried the Rue d'Etropal 3D-printed 4SUB? I just stumbled upon that site a few hours ago. A four-car set would be a bit pricey, but if one does not overspend on one's hobbies, what good are they?

Paint might be a problem. I have an ancient tin of Humbrol BR Blue that sounds liquidy enough, but cannot get other British paints besides Humbrol here and I'm more used to acrylics. Humbrol Acrylic BR Diesel Blue RC411 appears to be the correct BR Blue, but "Diesel" makes me a little unsure.

Regarding steam on the Golden Arrow, 70014 Iron Duke was mentioned as one of two locomotives so used in one response. The other, according to SREmG, was 70004 William Shakespeare and that would be my first choice, given my connection to Stratford, Ontario, home of the Stratford Shakespearean Festival. I'll continue to dig for information about which Bulleid Pacifics would have been used. (After writing that and scrolling around looking for replies that I may have missed, I see that RFS supplied the information about William Shakespeare - belated thanks, and my grandmother used to take me shopping in Lewisham although I cannot remember what she wanted there that she could not get in Beckenham; I have two buses that will eventually be remarked for 54 and 227 routes.) 

Aside from a daily coal train that lasted much longer than I imagined, I gather that there were no other goods trains through Beckenham Junction other than the occasional diversion between 1962ish and 1972, yes? What commodities would have (likely) been moved by such diverted trains, aside from box vans? Would wooden open wagons still be common? I have an SR pillbox brake van on order and have about a half of a dozen assorted Parkside and Dapol kits as guinea pigs for various previously-unused weathering techniques possible with much more modern paints available now.

Are drawings available of the station buildings and the last signal box available anywhere?

Are aerial photographs available? I tried Britain from Above, with no luck.

Ballast colour, beneath the grimy oil/sludge/tar coating?

Regarding the "scenic break at the west end", that has been causing me some concern. Does anybody have any old newspaper clippings regarding the tectonic plate shift that moved the tunnel under Crystal Palace just far enough east for my purposes? Are there any photographs of the tunnel entrance at the east end?

What are "ECS trains", as mentioned by Oldddudders?

I've been building a list of manufacturers of all things, especially detailing parts, but not all parts are illustrated and I've yet to find time to plough through them all. There are some ornate curly cast-iron "brackets" on the exterior walls of the station buildings that support the platform canopy, as seen here. Does anybody produce anything similar in etched brass?

That's it for tonight, and a really, really huge thanks to everybody who has answered so far.