ITG

Yes please. I’ll pm you with details if still available.

ian

You’d be advised to use the dedicated iTrain forum….

https://berros.eu/itrain/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

and remember to post your tcdz track file.

Ian

Hi

if still available, I could use these on my slowly progressing new layout.

Ian

2 hours ago, Martin Elsworth said:

Thanks again Nigel. I'm afraid my experience with electronics is more failure than success! A rethink is probably needed.
I've been reluctant to embrace full DCC to start with but with a suitable system could I dispense with the need for a control panel at all and just use the display on a tablet say?

If you do opt for DCC, take a look at DCC Concepts Alpha Panel or Alpha Mimic. The latter is what I used on a physical panel, complete with LED indicators. Both are pretty much a case of following instructions to plug and play, so may help dilute the learning curve. No connection other than a satisfied user.

ian

I am using kitchen units for storage under my under-construction layout, but being concerned about ease of under-board access, I mounted each cupboard unit on casters, and the layout board itself is ply-framed on a mixture of legs and battens. Legs are spaced to allow a cupboard unit to be rolled out if needed.

Ian

Thanks all,

we bought advance tickets back in December last year, and even then there wasn’t a full range of time options for our dates. So we are booked at 3pm, no other earlier choice.

Ian

Not strictly a modelling help topic, but I’m off to Hamburg next week for a few days, primarily to visit Miniature Wunderland, plus time for a Beatles memory lane trip, few beers, sightseeing etc.

Just wondered if anyone knew of decent model shops in Hamburg. Not that I want any non-UK models, but as I use Roco and Yamorc DCC kit, maybe I could pick up items which are out of stock here at present.

thanks

ian

A suggestion out of the blue….. I’ve had cause to fit a few roller blinds in the last few months, and the blackout type tend to have almost a smooth rubbery feel. May fit your criteria of smoothness but no idea about taking paint.

Might be worth meandering in B&Q, Homebase etc. although you’d end up with surplus cords and rollers, unless you can somehow work those into your situation horizontally. If you think it’s suitable, might be worth contacting one of the on line retailers, as (a) cheaper, (b) they do offer spares, which suggests they may be able to do ‘blind only’ without all the fittings (c) they tailor make to any size 
Good luck

Ian

8 hours ago, RikkiGTR said:

Ironically the 4 points at the top right is where I began track laying, so it makes sense to begin point motor wiring there as well.

Is that saying you’ve already laid the track, and thus presumably (all) the points?

If so, have you drilled holes underneath each point for the vertical pin to throw the tie bar of the points? And are your boards able to be turned upside down for the fitting and wiring of the points motors?

if the answer to these questions is ‘no’, then you face a different problem. If you haven’t drilled these holes, you’ve either got to take each point up to do so, or limit your self to above-board motors. And wiring 45 points upside down under the board is a challenge if you cannot flip the boards.

Ian

2 hours ago, RikkiGTR said:

DCC control of points seems just as daunting (even more so, truth be told) than DC control. The choice before me is so vast I once again don't even know where to start.

I think the bottom line is - no matter if DC or DCC - you need to learn the basics (maybe one or two options) on a couple of points, throughly and before you embark on 45! Tbh, few modellers would start with a position where, to use your words, “they don’t know where to start” when the task is 45 strong. Its ok and perfectly understandable to be learning, but not all at once on so large a number. The chances of you doing 45 points without an error or hiccup are slim, and you’re almost certain to need to troubleshoot. But if you don’t understand how things work (as opposed to following instructions how to install them), that troubleshooting is going to be tough.

And I don’t think I saw clarification on whether live or dead frogs? You need to be clear about that, because the chosen option will affect how you wire and install points.

Spend time at exhibitions if possible, or at least researching on YouTube. Not trying to be difficult but just trying to explain things in tiny steps. Good luck.

Ian

2 minutes ago, RikkiGTR said:

@ITG yes my layout is DCC but I always planned to have analogue points. I like the idea of toggling little switches and watching points change on command. 
 

Truth be told I’ve never put much thought into DCC control of points. And it seems quite a faff to have to type in addresses for those as well as locos, especially on my Prodigy Advanced controller. 

You don’t have to type in addresses. My now-dismantled layout used a push-button LED display on a mimic track diagram. Easy to assemble kit to do this from DCC Concepts Alpha system (no connection etc, and other brands are available, such as Megapoints. )
All I did was push a button, but it could have been a switch. I too used a Prodigy Advanced with that system. As I say, it’s good to make sure you understand the full range of options before spending money and time.

3 hours ago, RikkiGTR said:

@cliff park that does help quite a bit, I certainly need to be able to visualise it before I get cracking. 
 

I did wire up the DCC bus without any issues, but the points aren’t just “red to front and black to back” so it’s a bit more daunting 😅

 

 

Interesting that you say DCC bus, yet seem to be focusing on turnout motor control of a DC variety? At least, that’s what a lot of the responses seem to align to.

whilst it’s true you’d have the additional cost of decoders, the wiring surely would be simpler. In fact, there are many makes of decoders which come in banks of 4, 6 or 8. With so many turnouts, you could locate these multiple decoders near a span of points, and then link using (normally) 3 wires (short if you get the location right). Then it’s just a question of an accessory bus, rather like your DCC bus.

There’s not been much mention of frog switching either; if using live frogs, that maybe something to consider.

Your choice of course about these fundamentals, but it might be worth considering all the options before embarking.

Ian

Well, a further update. When I left the system yesterday, all was well although I hadn’t at that point ran a train. So today, initially the blue light on the booster was solid, and for the first time I ran a loco on both power districts connected to the booster, with accessories running off the Z21.
Left it for a while, and came back to find the blue flashing light. And so the situation is exactly as previously. Nothing I try can stop it. Again, I disconnected the 2 districts, and linked them back to the Z21 (as well as accessory bus) and loco runs correctly across the two power districts with turnouts in action as required. Surely that proves I have no track or wiring issues? In any case, with no track at all connected to the booster, I still get the dreaded flashing light.

So I don’t think it was the CAN cable, changing that was just a coincidence. It surely must be the booster itself, with an intermittent fault. Maybe when it gets warm?

I’ve emailed DCC Train Automation and Roco to see what they think, but unless any of you guys can come up with anything different, that’s where I’m at. But I’ll sleep on it and try anew in the morning.

Ian

7 hours ago, jpendle said:

Hi,

 

The CAN Bus cable is just a Cat5E or Cat6E network cable. If you have one of those lying around, give it a try.

 

Regards,

 

John P

Ahah! I have such a spare (new) cable, and bingo! Connected it, and on switch on…… no blue flashing lights! Then viewed Z21 Maintenance tool, and Booster presenting on CAN screen with no red ‘stop’ signs. Not yet ran anything on the layout with this configuration but this all looks very promising. 
Thanks to both Iain and John for respectively suggesting the CAN cable was potentially faulty and suggesting using a Cat5E cable.

Ian 

I did wonder if it was the cable, or the booster itself. Both are brand new out of the box. I bought them a few months back but it takes time to get to the point of using. I have no way of testing the cable that I can think of.

As only half the layout is connected currently purely for testing, I think I’m going to try temporarily connecting the accessory bus and both track buses together through the Z21 only (there’ll only be an odd loco or two running) purely to (a) give me piece of mind that things will run and (b) be able to continue testing before connecting up another baseboard of track.

I guess a call to James at DCC Train Automation (where the booster came from) is next unless you or anyone else has a brainwave.

It’s all most frustrating. But thanks for your efforts and support.

Ian

Clicking the blue bar at bottom right of screen does cause it to flash, and the Z21 light itself, which returns to normal with a second click, but it has no effect on the flashing of the booster or the ‘stop’ signs on the booster screen.

What do you think?

Ian

I  downloaded 1.18.1 and then booster FW update which are now same values as in your screenshot. But it made no difference to the booster window. I still have the ‘red stop sign’ below both booster channels. 
If I physically disconnect the track connection, and power off/on, still same issues.

Thanks for your help - any further ideas?

Ian

Z21 firmware updated to 1.43.  Is there a method of updating booster firmware?
I note now, whilst I’ve been gardening, the booster screen has lost its symbols below the twin displays ( see photo) and there’s a small ‘timeout’ on the right side of screen.

Hasn’t made any difference to the blue flashing light.

CAN definitely in the sockets labelled such and firmly in.

Edit - seems to make no difference with no track connections in booster, even when powered off/on.

30 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

This normally happens to me on my booster when the Z21 has not been made active i.e. the blue light on the Z21 is flashing. press the Z21 to make it active and then the booster can be made active. 

 

BTW, I don't use the same voltage on the Z21 and the booster. Z21=13v and Booster = 17v

Mmm, if it is a simple as described, that didn’t work. I pressed the Z21 button (which always was solid blue), which caused that itself to flash blue. A second press returned to solid blue, then I pressed the booster button, no change. I repeated, this time disconnecting the Z21 and reconnecting, then again tried the booster. No luck. 

Even with no track connections physically plugged into booster, I cannot remove the blue flashing light.
( I recall you’d said previously about the voltage, I just havent got round to that yet, with focus on the blue light!)

thanks

Ian

Hi all,

I'm hoping someone can help. I have for the first time connected my Z21 and Z21 dual booster to the under construction layout. The two units are linked by canbus. The Z21 drives the accessory bus, and the booster is for track power split into two districts.

I first tested only the accessory bus, using a combination of Yamorc 8116 with MTB MP1s and Gaugemaster decoders/solenoids. All working ok. When I first connected the track buses, I realised I had a short which after much investigative work, turned out to be a wrongly used metal rail joiner on a turnout V, rather than an insulated joiner. Now sorted.
But I cannot get rid of the blue flashing light on the booster. I’ve tried pressing the button, resetting to factory default, switching off/on.  I know the track buses are ok now, as I have separately connected each to the Z21 (temporarily disconnecting the accessory bus), and I can get a loco running in both track districts.   The accessory bus is also ok via the Z21. But still the blue flashing light. Attached are photos (whoops upside down for some reason) of the Z21 Maintenance App showing the booster screens. 
Hoping for some help soon, as may have to go out and do some gardening to relieve the stress!

thanks

Ian

Hi

At only 28” wide, there is insufficient width to accommodate a 180 degree turn, so you are limited to a shunting or depot type plan. Unless you can add a removable plank to house a fiddle yard.

As it’s your first attempt, whatever you do, I’d recommend treating it as a short term experiment that allows you to make mistakes and learn as you go. Very few people get it right first time, so just accept it maybe short term , and that versions 2, 3, 4 etc are only around the corner.

Ian

4 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

The 8116 could be fed from the accessory bus for both signal and power. There is good reason not to feed it from track power, since if you get a short which trips the track power, this would also disable the 8116 and so also the point motors. If the short was caused e.g. by running a train through an incorrectly set turnout, this would make it harder to correct the problem.

 

You can also feed the 8116 power from a separate power supply (e.g. 12V DC) - bear in mind that this power is used to actually drive the MP1 motors, so needs to provide enough current to drive them.  However, the MP1s only draw around 150mA while operating and switch off at the end of travel, so do not place a large burden on the power supply (in contrast to solenoid motors).

 

Yours, Mike.

Thanks Mike, our posts crossed, I think.

So it makes no difference to the suggested connections in the manual, of linking the two inputs, even if using separate buses. That’s what I thought, and have done.

Ian

10 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

The 3 wires which power the MP1 should come from the 8116 decoder.

 

If you are providing frog power through the switch in the MP1, then this switch should be fed track power.

 

Yours, Mike.

Thanks for the response.

Based on the image, the top three should link to the track power, with the third one down being the frog wire. That’s what I thought, and have done. The bottom 3 are connected to the Yamorc switch decoder, again as I’ve done.

so now just need to clarify how best to connect the two inputs on the Yamorc unit, signal and power. The provided diagrams indicate the two can be linked together, so one and the same. But there’s no mention of a scenario of using separate track and accessory buses.

Ian

On 19/12/2023 at 18:46, WIMorrison said:

Ian

 

It is actually a really simple solution - and one that I use myself 😉

 

a) create 3 busses

b) connect one bus (accessory) directly to the Z21

c) connect one bus to power district A

d) connect remaining bus to power district B

e) Connect CANbus cable between booster and Z21.

f) optionally, but recommended set up booster NOT to forward short circuits to Z21 (uncheck box)

g) optional, but recommended set up boosters NOT to use same voltage as Z21 (uncheck box)

h)  optional, but recommended activate auto-inversion (important for dual boosters, but of wiring is correct should not be required)

 

 

When wiring turnout motors take the switching power from the accessory bus, and, importantly, take the switching power for the frog from the appropriate power bus (A or B).

 

The reason for having different track and accessory voltage is that most turnout motors will work better on a voltage lower than the track and this allows you to have different voltages. I use 13v for accessory bus and 17v for track bus.

 

It really is that simple, the one 'gotcha' to watch for is accidentally crossing between the power districts which need to be completely separated from each other with full isolation between the two districts.

 

EDT - forgot to say that the Loconet bus goes from and to to the Z21, not the booster.

I’ve finally got round to the point of connecting the electrics, using the connections as defined by @WIMorrison above. I’ve now realised I have another query, relating to the use of Yamorc 8116 switching decoder and MTB MP1 turnout motors.

1. There are two inputs on the Yamorc unit, Power and Signal. Which of the buses (track and accessory) do I use for which input? Logically I think the accessory bus for the signal (as that’s providing the ‘switch’ command, and the track bus for the power (as that’s the power being switched for the frog). Or is it the accessory bus for both connections?

2. what is the source of the power connection on the MP1? Track or accessory? I think track but a confirmation or clarification would be most welcome.

thanks

Ian

Another vote for MTB point motors, but I also agree with the idea of focusing on the shed build before buying any more track.