Nick Lawson

Having last been going on about compartment interiors I have in fact wandered off back to underframes and bogies.

Firstly one of those annoying little things where you spot a detail on a drawing just after you have done it the wrong way: In following Stephen Williams' "4mm coach - Part one" I duly cut the plastic trussing off the solebars and replaced with brass, set just inside the solebars. Having just completed this manoeuvre for a second coach, I finally spotted from a prototype drawing that while the diagonals are bolted to the inside of the solebars, the king post itself is evidently mounted on the bottom of the solebar, with a reinforcing t-bracket, reproduceable with some plastic strip. I referred back to Williams and saw that the nice big drawing on p36-7 includes this detail, but hides it in the binding.

16 hours ago, Boldon Boy said:

The sign on the right advertises James Coxon & Co, which had a department store in Newcastle, latterly on the corner of Grey Street and Market Street and later occupied by Binns.  Googling the name produces more.    

Indeed! I had guessed the other word to be "mantles" (my great grandmother was a "mantle maker" in at least one census) and Google points to a digitised edition of the Newcastle Journal advertising that:

"JAMES COXON & CO. have just received a New Assortment of SILKS, SHAWLS, MANTLES, &C, Including all the recent Novelties".

I made out enough of one of the advertising signs on your platform photo for Google to find "Van Houten's Cocoa - best and goes farthest".

The company still exists in some form: https://www.vanhoutenchocolates.com/vanhouten/vanhouten/en_ph/contact.html Perhaps they could date the sign for you?

Just catching up on this thread which is really interesting!

On 27/12/2021 at 09:27, Michael Edge said:

the catenary has to be painted green - it's all copper wire which turns a rather bright green when oxidised.

I freely admit to knowing absolutely nothing about this, but I'm surprised that the cables carrying the weight weren't steel. Did they have any problems with sagging?

9 hours ago, Regularity said:

Tell us more, please!

Railway Modeller has digitised all its past issues back to 1949 and made them available online to those with a current subscription. I believe that also works for people subscribing for current paper copies.

Thanks to the searchable Railway Modeller archive I recovered a vaguely-remembered article on quartering drivers from December 1972 in which Mr Robbo Ormiston-Chant, formerly of Swindon works, said that "Most British Railways used right hand lead in setting their engines, but two, the LNWR and GNR at least used left hand lead". In case you are thinking of going even further off your normal piste, he adds that A3 pacifics also had left hand lead.
So he agrees with @Regularity

Is that glue or filler? I don't know  if that would alter your possibilities but...

I love the "kinky" brake pull in the picture above. Particularly the way it wraps round the front sand pipe.

@Compound2632 Thanks for the thought but I really am trying to back out of this rabbit hole! Don't tempt me to go on! My goal for last year had nothing to do with coaches at all; and that all went to pot.

Happy New Year!

Picking up from where I left off regarding better seating for my Clayton clerestory coaches:

I didn't mention that Stephen Williams, whose book has at least partially guided me in this saga, fitted out his coach with Phoenix/BSL seats. I looked but this product is currently not available.

Taking into account my suspicion that I was trying too hard; together with comments by other contributors about not fitting stuff that you can't see (wot no plumbing in the lavvy?!) and practicalities of permanently fixing body to roof rather than floor; I backtracked a bit from the scratch building of full seating which I'd been engaged on. Here firstly is my minimal solution:

The bulk of the required seating is third class. This covers the D499 & D486 seating completely (and half of the composite. I see Phoenix/Precision do whitemetal castings for 1st class seats btw).

Jenkinson & Essery's “Midland Carriages – an Illustrated Review” p107 contains a view of a 3rd class compartment from a Clayton 50' brake 3rd (D523) - linked above by @Compound2632. From this it can be seen that the upholstered seats consist of a seat base that curves front to back; a lumbar support and an upper back. The most visible part is this upper back which stretches from slightly below the base of the main window approximately 2/3 of the way up the window, and reclines slightly with a concave curve.

I reproduced this top section with a strip of 20 thou plastikard 7mm deep, padded out with a 20 thou strip behind the bottom edge. This can be glued to the partition before fitting. Bonus points if one manages to impart concavity into the seat back while it's softened by solvent. See Picture 1. (I've mislaid my lump of blutac - so apologies for the Thumb of God in the pics)

If the remainder of the seat is assumed to be invisible it can be bodged from whatever is to hand - for the unfortunate passengers to be glued onto. Following @jwealleans advice above, this doesn't need to fit flush to the sides, so could be fastened to the floor with clearance of tumblehome allowing later separation of body and floor for maintenance. (Memo to self: don't fix passengers leaning on the window frame).

I want to add internal weight to the carriages, so this may form the bottom layer of seating.

Take 2.

Initially focused on seating, I hadn't even considered furnishings above like pictures as suggested by @jwealleans. As an experiment I just stuck a couple of strips of plastikard in the general position of the carriage interior pictures in D & E. These are obviously more visible through the windows than the rest of the seating. (Picture 2 for an exaggerated white on black effect). Jonathan, I'm converted to your printing idea.  Have you covered this technique in your blog yet?

Take 3.

Back to the seating.

Referring back to the picture in J & E you can see that the carriage sides are upholstered to the height of the seat back. Arguably this would be visible if you peered through the opposite window.  This can be easily simulated by sticking a further strip of plastikard to the carriage side between the appropriate pairs of windows.

The kit as supplied contains partitions which fasten to the sides top and bottom, but with a gap in the middle to take the glazing strip. This means that the “upholstery” strip should fit between partition end and side in place of the glazing, but this would then in turn require the glazing strip to be cut into sections and glued between the extra plastikard strips which would be fiddly and possibly not result in a nice, secure finish. In picture 2 I also have clad the sides under the windows - but this is a leftover from my earlier attempt to make fully fitted seating.

Take 4.

Independently of whether the coach sides are “upholstered” or not, another possible mod is to fit the lumbar support below the seat back; if still feeling pernickity that viewer might squint down through windows and notice lack of proper seating. (In another generation I expect serious modellers will have endoscopes that they will poke through any open carriage windows ).

The height of the seat in the prototype picture is approximately half the height of the door paneling under the window. The lumbar support stretches from the top of the seat to the bottom of the window.

As I had inadvertently ended up with another load of Ratio seats from the Comet interior kit, I found that the headrest section can be usefully sliced off and repurposed as these lumbar supports. I turned the piece upside down and padded out the thinner bottom edge with 30 thou strip, which gives a rough approximation of the prototype. This again can be fixed to the partition before assembly of the body without affecting the ability to keep the body detachable from the base.

My current plan is to use my chop-shop D492 6-wheeler body as a test bed for the above ideas and then retrofit whatever works best into the other half-built Claytons languishing in the C & W works.

New Year's Resolution: get some passenger stock running this year!

Quote

The Whitechapel bell foundry,

@IzzyI remember hazily that at the time of the US Bicentennial celebrations in 1976 that some US satirists proposed suing Whitechapel for defective workmanship regarding the crack in the Liberty Bell. Whitechapel responded that if the bell was returned in the original packaging they would see what they could do.

5 hours ago, mikemeg said:

May I wish all, who do read the thread, a very happy, prosperous and, above all, safe New Year.

 

And the same to you sir! Thanks for all the enjoyment you have provided this year Mike.

next time: an NER long boilered goods? https://www.lner.info/locos/J/ner_1001.php

Last one just made it past grouping.

On 11/12/2021 at 01:12, The Black Hat said:

Just a suggestion... but next time add Aerolite... 

complete with matching inspection saloon of course!

@jwealleans Mmm, yes these plastic kits do need the partitions to keep the shape. I think I will stay with building the sides onto the floor; inserting partitions & seats and then see if I can screw down the roof through the lavatory compartment which is fairly central.

I have in fact been experimenting with building my own third class seating modeled on the DY2276 image furnished above by @Compound2632 starting by fixing panels to the coach side to replicate the upholstered  ends, (which therefore has implications for the fitting of the glazing); and then bodging seats from a mixture of materials. I'll write this up in a bit, but sadly non-railway related DIY has been getting in the way.

As I'm quite new to all this I'm starting by pushing things as far as I can to discover my limits. However, I have started to feel the nagging "who will ever see this?" doubt, particularly as I'm not intending to fit working lighting. It may well be that my next coach interior will be much simpler! I like the first suggestion by   @jwealleans and may give that a go. Love your work btw Jonathan. And as you're there - I've been interested by your comments in your blog on fixing carriage sides to roof rather than floor. I like this idea but am not sure how practicable it would be for these coaches with pronounced tumblehome and full width partitions?

A couple of relevant bits of product information:

1. I see http://www.ambisengineering.co.uk/ are working up flush glazing for the Ratio kits. I asked how this was coming along & Alan Austin says maybe another year before there is a usable product.

2. Coach seating. As neither the Slater's nor Ratio coach seats are suitable, I was interested to spot the Comet INT5 kit - carriage interiors for non-corridor stock, including seating. Sadly the kit just incorporates strips of the Ratio seating.

@Compound2632Thank you Stephen. That sounds a credible rule.

Your divination skills with grainy old photos are exceptional!

Generally, when they had both of these items, these coaches had gaslight tops over doors with torpedo vents offset to one side of them.

However, Jenkinson & Essery, Midland Carriages – an illustrated review,  P103, plate 133 is a very useful (to me) WW1 photo of a D486 all third with fittings as above, EXCEPT that there is neither light nor vent over the luggage compartment door on the side that is visible.  Would there be a gaslight over the luggage compartment door on the other side of the carriage?

and with torpedo vent?

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Another thought I have had but not (yet) acted upon is to speak to Worsley Works to see if they would do sides without ventilators for the various 48 ft diagrams.

That would be interesting.

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Later, in Bain's time, the clerestory was made narrower:

I should have known it wasn't that simple! Thanks for the info.

@Compound2632 as well as suggesting the D492 Ratio cut-down as an alternative to the Slater's kit, had elsewhere noted that the Ratio kits all follow the earlier 13'3" height design with the taller, narrower clerestory. For completeness: the Slater's kits model the later 13'1" height with the lower, wider clerestory; so the modeller can have both.

     Also, the Slater's sides have the earlier style door windows, while the Ratio kits all have the later door ventilators. A  modeller of an earlier period (mentioning no names!) with their hands on both kits might even be able to combine the earlier sides with the earlier roof?

Cut and shut

In which I get diverted away from my main project for a week.

I was taken by the idea discussed in other threads of cut-and-shut options for Ratio coaches. One I fancied trying was converting a D499 brake third to a D500 brake third (One extra compartment at the expense of the lavatories and a reduced luggage facility). These coaches were originally produced for local traffic with short buffers for close-coupling. However Lacey & Dow P271 notes that the 30 carriages in Lot 518 'may have been intended for branch lines because the Lot Register notes that they were to be “the same as Lot 512 except long buffers”'. I thought that for my 1923 period I might get away with putting a D500 on one end of a rake.

With this in mind I had been looking out for scruffy coaches I might cheaply hack about. I recently bought a very scruffy D499 and D486 from the usual source. Anyone who wondered “which idiot bought that?”... um, well it was me. I had divined from the pictures before purchase that the coaches might be too damaged for the scheme above, but I had a fall-back plan, in part suggested by @Compound2632 in another thread:  "I'm toying with what else one could produce by cut'n'shut: the passenger end of the D499 third brake could make a D492 6-wheel lavatory third..."

On receiving the models, the D499 was indeed too far gone for “diagram reassignment” to D500, but still possible for abbreviation to D492. However, my first essay in cut-and-shut was the D486 (6 x 3rd compartments, lavatories and a luggage compartment) which I planned to cut-down to a 33'6” D491 (5 x 3rd class compartments) This means jettisoning the plastic bogies and acquiring a 6 wheel chassis.

The half-assembled kit came in three parts – floor & undercarriage; sides ends and some partitions; and the roof. The original modeller had snookered themselves by fixing the buffer beams too high to allow the body to sit on the floor as intended, which didn't matter to me as I needed to shorten the floor and reclaim the beams anyway. However they had also failed to remove all traces of the sprue while managing to blob glue here and there, so the clean-down took longer than hoped.

I managed to separate one side before damaging an end that was weaker than the glue holding it, so left the remaining end attached to one side. I've no idea what this kit has been through but the sides had acquired a pronounced sag downwards in the middle. They must have been softened considerably as they were also pushed in at the top either side of each compartment partition.

My cut-and-shut of the sides has removed the sag along the length of the remaining carriage; and hopefully the other distortion won't be too obvious when the roof is on.

I didn't attempt a precision engineering job on the sides. I marked them and cut them freehand oversize, and then gently filed the pieces down afterwards. I followed the received wisdom of cutting down the sides along the door frames for the pieces ending in a door. The corresponding pieces with a compartment window I cut out such that there was a remaining sliver of window frame to glue against the door frame.

I had to remove the luggage compartment and cut it down to provide the two new ends to the shortened sides. This wasn't too bad although some redundant detail had to scraped off, particularly a commode handle.

I didn't fancy my chances of keeping everything lined up nicely while waiting for Mekpak to go off so I resorted to an old tube of Revell Contacta abandoned by my son when he left home. This seemed to do the business. Afterwards I cut out and glued in some plasticard reinforcements which hopefully won't be too obvious.

As I said earlier, I need to source a chassis to build this coach up on (maybe Brassmasters). The roof is going to be another bit of fun. While the sides bellied downwards the roof arches upwards in the middle. (What is it with these roof pieces that they do this?) As the clerestory appears to be glued firmly in place I may have to resort to hot water to flatten this down.

Anyway this has been an interesting diversion and at least demonstrated to me that chop-shopping is sufficiently practicable that in future I might risk the outlay on a new model to cut about (saving faffing about undoing somebody else's modelling).

However, I think I'd only want to do it where I can't buy a specific kit. I see Mr Branchlines sells a D491 along with three other 33'6” models. Oh yes and a D500. (And many other interesting kits too!)

Actually, there is one possible exception to the above resolution. In my unstarted projects stash there is a Slater's D530 full brake, which I was disappointed to discover is a full 2mm under scale length. As a result  I also have Highland Miscellany's brass D530 kit (which he created when he made that discovery). I had intended to sell on the Slater's kit, but suspect I may find myself inserting a couple of extensions into each of its sides. This of course would be the easy part. Whereas with the D491 I have been shortening the parts, The D530 would also need the floor and roof to be extended.

Oh well back to my unfinished D486!

22 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 I guess it’s why the GWR named a loco “Pershore Plum”!

Ah! With an experimental blue/purple livery perhaps?

13 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Have a look at Evesham goods yard on the Warwickshire Railways (yes I know …. It’s in Worcestershire!) for some commentary on loading and transport of fruit.

RJ Essery's "Illustrated History of the Ashchurch to Barnt Green Line - The Evesham Route" is also a useful source for this.

From a quick skim:

1. The season for produce ran from March to Christmas.

2. Even in the 50's when he fired on this line some produce traveled in sheeted open wagons.

3. The peak of the season was for plums, when the Midland had recorded shifting 1,000 tons in a week, which he estimates at 33 vehicles a day if you could pack 6 tons in each. Also the GWR was competing for this traffic, so the overall tonnage would have been higher; but the transport rates were consequently lower than in other areas.

44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm c. 1902 so interested!

Stephen, ok fine! These are the 51L MRC057 - a pack of 8