Delorean1984
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Posts posted by Delorean1984
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2 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:
Ironically, if I recall, Cavalex had planned the class 91 and mark 4 coaches in both OO and N, but the subsequent announcement of the Hornby versions killed off the OO version, and nothing's been heard about the N gauge version since. If you want to model the ECML in either TT:120 or N, I think you will need to model either an earlier period, or the current to recent period (Azumas are, or will be, available in both scales.
An ECML in the HST era should be possible in both TT:120 or N, provided you avoid the electrified area in those periods, particularly in TT:120—some but not all of the EMUs are planned in N gauge.
Yeah thanks for advice, like you say I may have to go earlier or more modern era eg Azuma etc which will work on tt120
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4 hours ago, spamcan61 said:
TT:120 has obvious size benefits, but the selection of UK outline stock is very limited compared with OO or N, and will remain so for some years at least. So it really depends on how much you want to model a specific time/place, if you're set on 1990s ECML then there should be an HST in TT:120 in the next year or two, not much else that would be usable.
I think I will move away from the specific 1990s ECML theme layout and see what my daughters would like from the layout, I think this will make it easier to pick which gauge to go for. 00 does have advantages in 2nd hand market though. hmmmm
3 hours ago, MyRule1 said:Everything that @spamcan61 and @woodenhead is completely valid but you have not said what part of the ECML you would be basing your layout on. There is a difference between various parts of the line.: inner suburban, outer suburban, cross country (Peterborough, Doncaster, York).
Hornby's programme for TT:120 for the next few years has been announced so unless another manufacturer enters the market, practically any location in the UK, apart from sites with Cl08 and/or Cl66 will be impossible to model.
The big problem with OO is the length of trains such as HST's or Cl91's +Mk 4's. N gauge is the obvious way forward but it might be too small to handle for you and your daughters.
It would be more late 1990s, that era of just after privatisation, apologies wasn't clear on that earlier. I was thinking the most southern part of the ECML. KGX to PBO as my inspiration. I think N would be too small for my daughter (I think I would be fine with it) but just don't want them to loose interest early on if its too small to enjoy.
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2 hours ago, woodenhead said:
One more thought, ECML 1990s sounds more like a layout based on your wants and needs than your daughters.
If you want them to be interested then you need to gather their thoughts on what would interest them and get them engaged.
It might surprise you what they would want out of the layout and give you a clear insight into what to build.
You never know they may like the idea of the ECML but a bit further into the past - then TT120 becomes a possibility.
It may be they don't want to be constrained by a particular line and to run stuff for fun over fidelity, again, TT120 may deliver here because Hornby will be building a variety of models not just ECML express engines.
But to go down a fidelity route specifc to the ECML in the 1990s you might find a dead end if you pick the wrong scale/location, for what is currently available I would say OO is the best route for that, but the two main trains will really dominate the space available, see what this chap is doing bearing in mind this is the extended for exhibition version but that is a one coach short full Mk4 rake.
I have not thought about it in this way before and certainly makes it a lot more simpler, I'll ask them and see what they say. I know my eldest likes Scotsman, Mallard and more recently a trip down to London she really liked the Azuma she travelled on so I am thinking a mix of trains/locos and rolling stock based on their views might be the way forward. Thanks for the tip.
2 hours ago, Ravenser said:The spaces you describe are pretty tight for OO in any form , and big modern stuff is going to look very ungainly going round them. Most modern OO requires an absolute minimum 18" radius, and 24" radius in OO is normally regarded as the minimum for credibility on main running lines.
In the context of attempting a double track continuous circuit in OO on a 4' wide board you are immediately in trouble
More serious is the fact that Mk4 coaches are 12" long in 4mm, and a class 91 or a DVT is about 10-11" long. There is no way you can get an ECML formation of 91 + 9 x Mk4 x DVT , or anything close , in that space. In OO it would be tight for a little country branch line worked by tank engines and 2 coaches
I also think 4' width is way too wide to be reaching across to get at the back of the board. Alarm bells would start ringing in my head about accessiblity at the back once the baseboard width starts to go beyond 2'6"
I don't think you can do the theme you want in 4mm in the space you have . Therefore you have to go into a smaller scale , or do something very different in 4mm
Your options in a smaller scale are therefore TT-120 or N. Now while I'm supportive of TT-120 as an intermediate size, Hornby have not expressed any intention to do any overhead electric stuff in TT:120. To be frank, anything 25kV is normally at the end of the list when RTR manufacturers are deciding what to make , in any scale.
Once Hornby's list of announced models p;lays out, some representation of the pre-electrification ECML is possible - you will have HSTs and 47s in TT:120. Ideally you'd want Deltics too.
Now there should be a route to a Deltic in TT:120. It would invlove getting Lincoln Locos to shrink their 3D printed Deltic in 3mm scale down to 1:120 scale - something Lenny Seeney has said he would be open to doing for anything he makes in 3mm. You would then need to disembowel a Hornby 37 (when it appears in TT:120) and reuse the bogies/gear tower and motor in a new longer frame , with longer drive shafts, to build a home brew Deltic chassis (EE bogies for 37 and 55 were basically the same) . That is a possible route to a Deltic in TT:120, but I really don't think it's a project for someone new to the hobby.
But at that point you would have HST, 55, 47 in TT , with Mk3 and Mk2E/F coaches. Something could be done.
However the post electrification era ECML looks very difficult in TT:120. Lincoln Locos do an astonishingly large number of loco types , but they don't do a 91. You'd still have to construct a chassis /mechanism for it, with fewer resources as Hornby's diesel announcements in TT:120 are almost all Co-Co. And you'd need them in squadron service. One is not enough
If you want to model the electrified ECML in that space , N may be your only option
One further issue - the ECML notoriously was electrified on the cheap using overhead suspended from wire headspans . Catenery is always an issue (one reason why 25kV is a modelling poor relation) but I really wouldn't want to be scratchbuilding wire headspans at either 1:120 or 1:148 scale
It may be all you can do about the overhead is erect the masts on each side and leave the wires to the imagination
Some fair comments there, the lack of available stock in TT:120 is going to be an issue if I got for ECML in the 90s, even if I do it after privatisation in the later half of the 90s with GNER etc. Also like you say length of trains is an issue too, something I am going to have to think about.
14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:Q1. 8ft x 5ft with well, definitely. It’s more practical, and one you are inside the doughnut, it looks bigger, because you can’t see it all at once.
Q2. I think i’d go for 00, because daughters grow up, progressively moving onto different interests, faster than TT120 is expected to progress to a wide range, and second hand 00 is plentiful.
Personally, I would focus more on what is going to engage the offspring, rather than your own tastes, although it’s always nice when they coincide.
I’d also leave some “free play” area, where the children can compose their own track layouts, rather than nailing everything down solid, because they’ll enjoy the creativity. Maybe fix down the basic circuits, but give them opportunity to make sidings.
One thing my daughter was always heavily into was imbuing little figures with character, and making up l0ng complex narratives, so a people-focus, rather than a thing-focus, which is why we went for playmobil trains rather than smaller, and how my vintage 0 gauge became inhabited by Lego figures. Even now she’s a proto-teenager we have great fun creating Christmas villages on the lounge floor, with me doing the trains and her doing the people. You may find that your daughters will value the little people.
Stand by to create a unicorn-themed castle over the tunnel!
Yeah I am inclined to go with the 8ft x 5ft option too, yeah its a fair point you mention about going 00 as their interests move on however I know they like Mallard, Scotsman and Azuma (as mentioned above) and I think these are available in TT120. But then on the other hand the 00 second hand market is more broad and my daughters will have more choice.
Good tip on the free play and people focus narratives, can totally relate to that and this might give me something to work with, as @woodenheadsaid above its worth me asking their thoughts on what they'd, I can also change the layout if their interests change later.
Haha a unicorn themed castle layout!
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Hey all
I have been looking on this site on and off for a little while now and had some help from some fellow members, mainly from @Harlequina few years back when I wanted to build a layout for my daughters and myself.
Back then I had space in the garage to build a 10ft x 5ft layout and this would be my first layout I have ever built, complete newbie. However never got round to building it and also something just didn't feel right building it in the garage where it would only get used part of the year and also would be subject to big temperature differences etc.
Anyway 2.5 years on, I might have a spare space inside the house where I can now build it and it would be better. I want to try and keep things simple for me to build and something my daughters will enjoy helping to build and more importantly using it. I don't have much experience apart from playing with train sets when I was young myself but do have a good idea of how things can be built on a layout. The space inside the house would not allow the same size as what the garage did but I can certainly fit an 8ft x 5ft layout with a 4ft x 2.25ft well in middle (if tucked right up to the wall), if not I can omit the well and move away from the wall so I don't have to stretch over. I think this size layout as a first layout is quite generous.
Alternatively I can do an L shape board layout (without the well but tucked into corner of room), a 6ft x 4ft board with another 4ft x 2.5ft board attached to it. My concern with this setup is stretching over the board to build, I won't be able to stretch that far, especially in the corners unless I move the layout away from the wall and allow for access behind it but this will therefore make the layout smaller too.
I also have to think about playability too, I do feel my first idea is the better of the two. What are you thoughts on this?
Next big question is that I was going to do my layout in 00 gauge but since that idea I have notice TT:120 has been released from Hornby and I was thinking I could fit more on the layout with this scale, what are your thoughts on this? Should I go with TT:120 or stick with 00? I did also think of N gauge but decided it would be too small to build and use for myself.
Also the theme I am thinking of is around 1990s, last part of BR based on the ECML (spent many of time going on the ECML with my parents visiting family around this time).
Hope you all can help or advise which direction I should go with.
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Right as it's a been a while since I've measured out 10x5 in the garage here is a photo of the width, you can see where it comes up to and would be plenty of room for the car door.
So 10x5 it will be.
Just need to decide on the flooring, either paint or rubber floor tiles. Some good idea @big jim regarding the flooring, especially the one with leaving car on concrete area and creating an insulated floor under layout, would this be just laminate with just laminated flooring or just plonk some ply on top? What insulation did you use again? Yeah I've enquired about radiator in there before and it is possible too.
17 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:I have seen plenty of Fiat 500s that are more than 10 years old. And a wet car will rust more quickly in a garage than outdoors.
17 hours ago, big jim said:
it is a fiat though, will rust away in a week!(says him with a mini)
Haha, I just admit my Abarth 500 does have a mind of its own especially with the electrics. It's 10 years old one but not doing too bad on the rust front, just a bit starting under wheel arches.
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1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:
In N, you could do away with the central operating well and put the fiddleyard behind the station. 10' x 2'6" even allowing 6 tracks rather than the 4 in the 00 design. And, of course, your trains can be longer.
Yeah that's a good idea, wow that would be quite a reduction in width. Would there be enough width a 2'6" for my original oo design in N gauge? I could go wider technically than 2'6" and still be comfortable with car door as original design was 5ft wide
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1 hour ago, Barclay said:
Modern cars are quite happy outside - fill the garage with trains!
Haha yeah that's true, I have thought that, I could have a massive layout in here.
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1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:
I like that plan as indeed I like most of Harlequin's work.
If you were take that but spread it out to take the same space but in N, you would have a layout that gives good operational characteristics but looks so much better. But no more complicated.
Do you think that would work? I did want a fiddle yard, wonder if that would be possible in N gauge? What other things do you think I could fit in?
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8 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:
10' x 5' is very limited for 4mm scale/00. Unless you are happy with a branch line terminus as part of a U-shaped layout.
In N, it is a very adequate space suitable for a mainline layout.
This is what I came up with the help from @Harlequinand his design expertise.
I'm pretty sure I can fit this in the gap between the wall where bins are and the car with enough room to open car door.
I wasn't too sure if N gauge would be too complicated for a newbie?
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Here are some photos of the garage to give you better idea. As you can see I've sorted the roof out and there is insulation on other side of that.
Halfords have garage floor tiles so I think I'll get them and also do you guys think it will benefit from building wooden frame with insulation and plasterboard?
I just want to try get the space right before building the baseboard and layout.
The baseboard is going to go where the bins are and also got car in garage which gives you idea.
I've planned to go 00 gauge for this layout which I think is doable, I think the layout is about 10x5" unless anyone can convince me to go for N gauge and go for smaller layout?
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Seeing @big jim thread (which I'm still reading). I think building a wooden frame to put on brick walls and line insulation in-between with plaster board is a good idea. I can do that on most walls in garage and think it will improve it.
With regards to the floor, basically I'm deciding between the garage floor tiles or sealing with concrete sealer which will be cheaper of the two options.
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On 18/10/2020 at 14:39, Joseph_Pestell said:
Agree with all that others have said about insulation and sealing the concrete floor.
But what would worry me even more, if I have understood the OP correctly, is that the layout will be sharing the space with the car. That means a garage door being opened and dust being blown in. And you definitely would not want to be putting the car in there when wet.
Yeah it will be sharing it with my daily car, I do have space for both the car and layout (approx 10x5ft). Ideally the car needs to stay in. The electric door is literally up and down straight away so I don't tend to get much stuff blown in.
On 17/10/2020 at 08:31, fulton said:Hi A photo of my garage inside, was new twenty years ago fitted ceiling with insulation, sealed half brick walls outside with silicon sealant, painted inside with sandtex, added draught excluder to door, painted floor with floor paint, have two small tubular heaters, which are not often on. Does not feel at all damp and no dust, only a problem with spiders!
That's a nice looking layout and garage too.
On 18/10/2020 at 09:09, Ray H said:It might be worth lining the walls with plasterboard which could then be painted if necessary. It should make the walls/area brighter. Mind you, you fix the plasterboard with the dark side towards the wall so the lighter side faces the layout then you might not need to paint it.
Do the same on any external wall but put a layer of insulation behind the plasterboard.
Your plan shows the two walls being plain. I thought a lot of garages had a pillar midway along at least one wall that makes the width narrower at that point. I forgot that when planning my layout.
Yeah got two walls at end of garage that are plain. I'll get some photos up of garage up so to give people a better idea.
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36 minutes ago, 37114 said:
I was going to paint the walls as it will make the garage brighter. I meant to do this before I started my Land Rover rebuild but didn't so will paint it when it is finished. I did paint the wall by my workbench so here is a comparison. (The workbench is not usually this messy, I have had to clear some space for an electric cable to be run through)
My garage is integral and I have a good quality roller door and have never had damp issues
@37114 do you have your layout in here too?
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Thank you for the tips and help guys. I'll try and get a photo of the garage as this might give better idea of my setup.
Sounds like sealing the concrete should be done to reduce the dust. Do I need a machine to grind down the concrete before sealing or painting or just seal or paint on top.
The concrete floor is old, about 30 years old. I've looked at those interlocking tiles, they look good. My thoughts on the tiles were to tile the car area and someone gave me idea in this thread to put plywood under the layout and attach legs to it, what do you guys think to this idea?
Do you guys paint the bricks too? I'm not sure if to do this and if there is any benefit in doing this?
For those wondering on my layout design, this is what I'm going for. Big thanks for help from @Harlequinfot his assistant in the design.
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Over last few months I've been trying to get my garage ready for my layout.
Problem that I'm worried about is dust from concrete floor. How's best to combat that? It's a double garage so I still store my car in one half and have the layout in other. I've put false ceiling in and got insulation in the loft area of the garage as well as a insulated garage door.
In just concerned that I build my layout for it to be ruined by dust in the future and possibly the changes in temperature.
For those who have theirs in the garage how did you combat these issues?
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12 hours ago, Il Grifone said:
The starting price of £15 was about right. The centre car is one of the shorties so utterly worthless (I think there's one in my scrap box) and the other cars aren't worth much...
Or there's this one currently at £2.20 (no centre car, but see above):
Out of interest I didn't know that Hornby did longer versions of the MK3 coach. I'm in need of some MK3 coaches and didn't know that.
Thank you everyone for tips on motors, I've serviced them and got them going.
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Hey guys
I've bought a couple of non runner HST and managed to diagnose their faults.
One question I've got is how is best to clean the commutator? I've been using a fibreglass pencil for that and seems to do good job but is it right thing to use, should I use something else?
Next question is, I have the ringfield motor version with the metal brush retainers that you fold back. Now when reinstalling spring and brush how much of the top of the spring should be visible? I find if I press too hard with no spring showing that the brush stops the motor spinning and if too loose I'm not certain the brush is having a good contact with the commutator.
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I new to the hobby and have picked up a HST I am servicing and have struggled getting the weeks off.
Can anyone recommend a decent wheel puller?
I've been told GW Models sell a good one, anyone have any upto date contact information for him?
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3 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:
Just an important point on Z21/z21 The Z21 is Black, fairly expensive, vast number of features. The z21 is white, a lot cheaper, far fewer features and a number of restrictions on what it can do. Be sure to know your "Z" from your "z".
Ah didn't realise that, thanks for the tip.
What's the main difference between them?
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Hey everyone.
Thanks for the tips and help.
I've had a good look around and quite like the Z21 system, looks feature rich and good for my needs. I also forgot to mention that my young daughter must be able to use it as I'm mainly building the layout for her so suspect the tablet/telephone based z21 system might be good for her then say traditional DCC controller. Also hope the z21 is future proof with firmware updates etc
Anyone got experience of the z21?
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Thank you everyone for the tips.
The plan was to build the baseboard this week when I'm annual leave but will leave it until lockdown is over however just planning on what I'll need.
In terms of baseboard, is 9mm or 12mm ply best? I'm also going with Harlequins plan with fettling as I go a long. Does anyone know if I could get small incline in here anywhere?
Just another thought if I decided not to do the fiddle yard, anyone have any ideas what I could put here instead? In happy with the fiddle yard but I want to think of all different options before I start building.
I'm also pricing up points, which point motors are worth going for?
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Hey guys
I'm in the process of getting my garage ready for my building my layout. It's s brick garage attached to side of my house and is not quite double size but more 1.5 sized garage.
I've got an insulated garage door and will be replacing old wooden window with double glazing unit after lockdown finishes.
I've got two wooden doors but would it be worth replacing with double glazing unit? The garage is still used to house my car but has enough room for a 10m X 5m layout.
Now some of walls are single brick which I could do with insulating these, how's best to do that and what materials are best?
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I'm after a DCC controller, never had one before but want to get one in readiness for when I get my baseboard built and some track down.
Would prefer just to buy once rather than upgrading in few years.
What recommendations do you guys have?
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On 15/03/2020 at 14:58, Harlequin said:
Hi, Thanks - I'm glad you like it! (Hope I haven't trod on any toes.)
I suggest you have a really critical look at the design before you jump in. Make sure it really will do what you want and that it offers enough interest. (It's quite simple but it's a reasonable contraction of Berwick-Upon-Tweed and it's hard to see how much more could be added to it.) If there's anything you don't like please let me know.
You could take the design as-is and either print it out at real size or take measurements from the drawing to position everything. I can send you a PDF file. Or you could try to replicate it in your software if you want to change things.
The location in the garage sounds fine. The view blocker is a bit woolly at the moment but it would do two jobs: 1. Hiding the exit of the track from the scene and 2. Disguising the tight R2 and R3 curves. It could be another tunnel mouth or overbridge but we already have both of those so it would be great to find an alternative method. Maybe just some tall(ish) buildings? Perhaps someone has a suggestion?
Edit: I forgot to ask whether you'd thought about point control yet. Are you thinking of motorising the points or keeping it simple and doing it by hand? If you're going for point motors then the medium left on the bridge needs to be thought about.
No definitely not stepping on any toes, my daughter will like it. Good thing is we have a castle here in Scarborough too so the layout is quite related to scarbados too.
Yeah I'll have a think about the tall buildings to disguise that area but I think that would work. Do you think I should have a fiddle yard? I think I should have one as without it I don't think I would have enough storage areas without one on this size layout? Out of interest how many trains at one time can I have running on this layout, about 2 or 3?
With regards to the points, I would like to motorise them at some point, I might not be able to straight away but will plan ahead and drill the holes, are they easy to fit?
Should I go 00 Gauge or TT:120 Gauge?
in Layout & Track Design
Posted
Right bit of an update to this.
Size layout board I would be able to fit is 8ft x 5ft. Now should I bother with operating well? I would be able to access all around if I didn't as I won't shove the board right up to the wall so access during building and when operating shouldn't be a problem. Just don't know if an operating well will be more immersive for my daughters as it will round around them with them being in the middle, what's your thoughts?
In terms of theme they are happy to go with locos and trains they like eg they mention scotsman, mallard, Thomas, eurostar, Azuma so basically a right mix and think this makes it a lot easier for me and gonna drop the 90s theme for now.
Now still not decided on gauge, need to do bit more reaserch based on what my daughters mentioned above. I'm leaning towards tt 120 rather than OO but I'm aware that I can probably get most of not all of their trains in OO. Can also fit more on the layout in TT than OO which will make it more interesting for them.
In terms of layout I don't know if to go with basic set track or streamlined or mix of both. I still have @Harlequinlayout that he helped me with (I'll upload here once I've figured how to do it) and wonder if I should adapt that layout to either TT or just go ahead with OO but bearing in mind this was a layout size I think for 10ft x 5ft when it was gonna go in the garage.
Anyone got any inspiration for 8ft x 5ft reasonable simple roundy layout in either TT or OO bearing in mind that playability is key, wonder if a yard can be fitted in too?