magmouse

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Full-width vent - looks Mica-ish?

Yes, although the only Micas shown in ABT that overlap with the broad-gauge period have ventilation slots in the 3rd plank down, which we don't see here. Micas also don't seem to have the additional overhang to the roof where the door is, which we see in this photo. The text with two words, one on each door, could possibly read "MEAT VAN", though, which would fit with being a Mica. As we know, ABT isn't great on the earlier periods, so just because the wagon in the photo doesn't have an exact fit in the book, doesn't mean it's not a Mica. [phew, that's a lot of negatives...]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

the wagon in front of it, with straps instead of corner-plates.

Yes - and I think the corner plates are asymmetric, with the two arms of the 'L' shape bracket different lengths - these are then alternated as they go down the corner. This wagon also has a two word inscription on the door - the load and tare weights written in italics? It looks like the number on the bottom plank to the right of the door.

More wagon mysteries....

Nick

The position of text on the steel ballast wagons in the large GW period varied quite a lot, but typically included "PT. WAY" in letters around 4-5" high, and some kind of working instructions in smaller letters (e.g. "Return to ..."). I suspect we have here the running number under the G, load and tare in italics under the W, "PT. WAY" on the top of the middle panel, and instructions at the bottom.

Nick.

18 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Must admit it feels wooden to me, although I can't substantiate that. Maybe it's the look of the solebar?

I see what you mean - no apparent flange to the bottom of the solebar. Wooden would also explain the deeper curb rail than seen on the steel types. Is is a pre-diagram type, not described in ABT? We know that book isn't good on the earlier stuff. Based in the livery the photo is 1904 or later, so it could be an early type. Or, if the photo is post 1923, the wagon could be inherited from another railway - though that seems unlikely given the presence of a round-ended 3-planker. Are there any other clues to the photo's date?

Nick.

Thanks, Mikkel - more books to buy! I am not convinced by Atkin’s suggestion that the wagon is wooden or has dumb buffers, but there is something odd about it - it doesn’t seem to quite fit any of the diagram P types I am aware of.

Nick.

Thanks, Jason, that’s very helpful.

Nick.

I am working on a 7mm scale GWR guards van, using the PECO kit as a basis. I am adding working lamps, which raises the question of whether there should be any light inside for night-time operation. Passenger guard's compartments had lighting (oil, gas or electric, according to period) but as far as I know goods guard's vans did not - at least, there was no built-in lighting provided.

Did guards use portable lamps, of the hurricane/Tilley variety? Or something else, or nothing?

Any information gratefully received - thanks.

Nick.

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

So steel bodied, e.g. a P4?

 

It would be a fun little train to run.

I'm half way there:

Just need a PW brake van...

However - there is something odd about the ballast wagon in the photo. The curb rails look very deep, with the drop door hinges above the bottom edge. I can't see a diagram number that quite looks like this - P4 has the bottom of the hinges aligned with the bottom of the curb rail, and P5s have the hinges just below the curb rail (more accurately, they don't have a curb rail at all, being steel floored).

@Mikkel - do you have the figure number for the photo in Freight Wagons and Loads? I couldn't find it in there, but that may be my poor looking skills (a source of regular complaint by my late mother, and more recently by my wife, both able to find things in a moment I have spend 15 minutes looking for).

Nick.

I love the undulating track formation in that first photo. The cows gathering at the gate are also a delight.

Nick.

There was an earlier grease-lubricated box of type ‘K’, so I assume the OK type is an oil-lubricated replacement for that. Possibly there was a patent, to justify the logo? The grease boxes also had a logo in some cases.

Nick.

51 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

diagrams taken with No. 26 of the same class (perhaps a misprint?)

Zooming into the picture (Midland Railway Study Centre item 66779), I’m pretty sure that it shows number 26, not 25, so the error may be in the archive description, not Johnson’s.

Nick.

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

no doubt all the third class compartments were the same.

That’s right, as shown by the plan view which has the internal compartment dimension between partitions.

Nick.

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Not sure I believe the upper drawing of the E19 - look at the compartment spacings of the side elevation view.

I think the side elevation has been scanned in two parts and not put together quite accurately. There are discontinuities in the drawn lines in several places where the join is. That's why that window looks so narrow.

Nick.

2 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

I've told Mike that if he doesn't have room for the wagons when moving that I will happily take them off his hands.

If Mike announces he is going to pass on some of his stock, make sure you don’t get trampled in the stampede!

Nick.

Mike, even by your high standards this is superb. Though the body is all plastic, somehow the planks looks like painted wood and the washer plates look like metal. Wonderful stuff.

Nick.

51 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Hmmm...Suggestions invited!

My immediate thought - think 'cockpit', with the operator seated half way between the beams, head immediately below the roof apex, facing the window. The layout wraps around, with the main scenic space between the beams, below the window, making use of all that lovely light. Track layout with station/harbour/yard/industry centred, fed by either dumbbells either end or a loop of track round the outside of the space. Could have a fiddle yard behind the operator, who sits on a swivel chair.

Could be quite spacious for 4mm scale, but who needs that? Tight radii for 7mm scale but would suit an industrial scene, which would suit you.

Nick.

And happy birthday from me too! I assume it’s tomorrow for you by now, though. 
 

Nick

Look on it as re-enacting the broad to standard gauge conversions carried out by the GWR in the early 1890s….

Nick.

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Crop from edge of well-known photo from Bath, dated 1908. Frustrating angle, but the plate is interesting. Could be special instructions of course. Note pattern of rain strips.

 

 

Wow - I’ve looked at that photo several times, and never noticed the plate on the brake van. My focus has always been on the wagons beyond, and their sheets.

I suspect the plate is for the home depot name, though it is interesting that it is on the right hand of the two centre panels, unlike the example @Miss Prism posted above (but the same side as the painted Crewe label in the photo in my first post). The best bet is to have a long depot name that has to split across both panels, as in @Compound2632’s model!

Nick.

5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

When did painted guard's name cease to be applied?

 

According to Slinn, Great Western Way, 2nd edition 2009, p.123 on, the chronology goes like this:

1873 onwards - guards allocated their own vans, and the guard’s name is painted on the side.

By the end of the 1880s, guard’s name omitted, and depot name painted on, in italics.

From c.1894, with the introduction of cast plates on merchandise wagons, similar plates were sometimes used to show the home depot.

By 1896 the body colour had been changed to grey, including handrails.

By 1900 the depot is shown in block letters, with 5” initials and 4.5” remaining letters.

From January 1903, vans allocated to guards had their name painted on, with other vans marked “spare” (though this is not confirmed photographically).

Allocating vans to guards ceased around 1912.

Nick.

Thanks, Stephen. Interesting and helpful to hear that you have come to the same conclusion regarding the arrangement of the various elements.

Slinn dates the change from G.W.R on the left to it being on the right to around 1893, so yours would be rather a straggler to have this arrangement still in 1902. In any case, Slinn dates to start of grey livery for brake vans as "by 1896", so LH G.W.R lettering would be with red livery.

Slinn references the (re)introduction of painting the guard's name on vans as January 1903, citing a GWR circular. So you are only out by months - sorry if that means the ingeniously named F Goodish is, like Bunbury, quite exploded.

Nick.

Thanks, Russ - if nothing else comes to light, I think I will follow the logic you have suggested.

Regarding the tare weight, perhaps this was on a cast plate, as with general merchandise wagons that had cast plates, so they didn't feel the need to paint it on as well?

Nick.

I am currently building a GWR Toad (brake van) in 7mm scale, from the Peco kit. According to Great Western Way (2nd edition, 2009), by 1900 the home depot of the van was shown in block letters, with 5” initials and 4.5” for the remaining letters (previously it had been shown it italic letters). From January 1903, vans allocated to guards had their name painted on, with other vans marked “spare” (though this has not been confirmed photographically). Allocating vans to guards ceased around 1912.

For my 1908 period, I therefore need both the home depot in block capitals, and the guard's name. I want to have the pre 1904 small "G.W.R", not the post 1904 large 25" GW. However, having looked in the usual sources, I can't find a photo showing how the various lettering elements were arranged on the van side. There are plenty of photos later, with 16" GW (1921 onwards), and a couple earlier, with just the guard's name in italics, but none in my time period. The closest I have is this:

[ image from http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html - the forum software won't allow embedded images from non-https sites, so I have had to add the image to my post. If there are objections, I will remove it. ]

It's possible that the arrangement of guard's and depot name was the same pre-1904, but it would be good to confirm if this, and whether the guard's name changed to small block capitals (as shown here) or remained as italics for the period I want.

Does anyone have any photos showing what I am looking for, or any other sources of information?

Thanks -

Nick.

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

he's ruddy good!

Well, indeed - but you probably helped with a clear and detailed brief. Being a “good client” is more important than people sometimes realise.

This looks really great - and an excellent example of minimum space 7mm scale, with lots of play potential.

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

I could just quickly get a controller hooked up

Resistance is futile…

Nick.

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

Quite why they wanted an asymmetric wheelbase though is beyond me... 

My only thought is that it centres the horse compartment in the wheelbase, which should give the horses the smoothest ride. People and dogs are indeed lower classes, with the rougher ride at the extremities of the vehicle.

Nick.

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Now I like this because it kills off the argument for foreign wagons conveying empty casks to Burton.

...but blows a hole in my justification for a MR wagon on the Dorset coast. Unless the Bristol store was connected to the MR there, not the GWR. Or the beer came from one of the smaller brewers in Burton, that didn't have regional stores and sent the casks direct to the destination.

Nick.