magmouse

Maybe not precise, but with the important (and I suppose obvious now it's stated) point that the undercoat was a different colour to the top coat, with more of the preserving white lead in it. Nick

Thanks - I thought I had seen it somewhere.

Fair point, if the black pigment is that powerful, which I can believe. Is there a recipe for the GWR colour somewhere? Nick.

Indeed, while other photos are of high enough quality for us to be confident they show a single colour - whatever that colour was! If only we had more pictures at high quality, we might have more of a sense of whether the wagon you are referring to was pretty much a one-off, or part of a pattern to paint certain wagons in a certain way at a certain period of time. Nick.

And who would not be persuaded by a paint-theoretical argument? The only thing about the idea that the move to grey was that it would be better for wagons made mostly of wood is that they grey chosen was dark, with relatively little white lead in it. Surely a lighter grey, as used by other railway companies, would be preferred? In any case, the practicalities can't have been the main driver, or they would have continued with red for iron wagons. Assuming the technical advantages were real, or believed to be real, they didn't entirely trump the desire for a unified corporate look. The red N4 is increasingly alluring.... Nick.

I am currently working on a Slaters (ex Coopercraft) GWR loco coal wagon, diagram N13 (below). As the painting stage approaches, I have to bite the bullet and commit to a decision about livery - grey or black? I don't want to rehearse this debate here, as it has been covered at length on the forum and elsewhere, with no decisive outcome. However, as I was researching the N13, I got excited about the prospect of other loco coal wagons - the earlier N6 with extended sides, and the even earlier wooden wagons - both of which would make for visual interest. But my eye was really caught by the 20T diagram N4, as shown in GW Wagons Appendix, figs 61 and 62, with the short-lived Thomas screw brake, cast number plates and massive, 12" deep solebars. So, my question is, as the N4s were built in 1898, would they have been painted red? If one subscribes to the view loco coal wagons were painted grey as other stock, not black, then it would make sense they were red before the grey wagon livery came in. The official photos in GWWA show the wagon in a dark colour, which I can perfectly well believe is red. Or grey. Or black... The prospect of a future red loco coal wagon is alluring enough to convince me to paint the current model grey, in line with that logic. Thoughts, anyone? Nick. PS As we all like a picture, here is the N13 on the workbench, nearly ready for the paintshop. This has required quite a lot of work, as the kit is a scale 6" too narrow, and has square corners, not round. I have also added brass strip to make the L-section along the top edge, upgraded the brake gear with WEP parts, and added solebar detail: the T-irons extending to the solebar; the triangular body supports; door stops. I have also extended the headstocks to create the angled ends.

There you go again - tempter! // starts researching SER van prototypes and 7mm kits… //

There is no end to the factors we have to try to take account of when working out a realistic traffic flow! Nick.

That's a very dragon-y kind of angel...

Some coal I envisage as domestic, of course. Assuming the fictitious Netherport is a similar size to Bridport - a population of around 7000 - then at a typical average of 1 ton per year per person, that's 7000 tons/year or about 20 tons a day - two wagons (with seasonal variations). Let's say 4-5 wagons, two or three times a week. Then there is industrial traffic - I am not imaging a brewery or gasworks, but a marine and general engineering works as part of the harbour complex. This will need coal, and just possibly supplies for the occasional new-fangled coastal steamer. Coal could come by rail from the Somerset fields, South Wales or Midlands, depending on available prices and type of coal required. Perhaps also by sea from South Wales and even Kent - certainly Cornwall and Devon coastal areas were served that way. I am planning a fictitious local coal merchant, to justify a few older dumb-buffered, round-ended wagons. Then some wagons belonging to collieries and coal factors - I'm still working out likely traffic flows to decide what would be relevant, but hoping to justify the ancient Slaters kits for an Ocean (already built) and a United wagon I picked up a while ago. Everything will be doubled up for loaded and empty - not literally the same wagon twice, but equivalents for each traffic flow. Any advice, thoughts or pointers to information on the above would be gratefully received. And as to an LNWR van of beer - you are very naughty, Stephen, with your temptations. Now I have visions of something delightfully 19th century, outside framed with an opening roof, like this: (HMRS photo: https://hmrs.org.uk/-aag025--6t-box-van-lnwr-84513-d-33-.html) Perhaps bringing bottled beer, for the folks in the upper town to have with their supper, while the denizens of the lower town and harbour-side drink beer from the casks brought in the D299. Nick.

Yes, I've looked at those kits - very nice, but as you say, modelling the pre-pooling period, I need to limit the number of non-GWR wagons. I have a D299 MR 5-plank bringing beer from Burton-on-Trent, and have the old ABS kit for an LSWR 3-plank bringing bricks (in my imagined Dorset coast location, the nearest brick-making clay is in LSWR territory). I am though gradually building up a rake that will show the range of GWR opens of the period, from 1-plank to 5. Nothing you haven't already done in 4mm, of course! The mix of red and grey liveries will also add variety, plus PO coal wagons. Currently on the workbench is a diagram N13 loco coal wagon, using the Slaters (ex Coopercraft) kit - quite a lot of work fixing its major inaccuracies: too narrow; square corners, not round; no flange on the top edge; sides too thick; brake gear (DC1) has push rods the wrong way round; headstock ends incorrect. All good fun, though... Nick.

Thank you! Again - it's all thanks to people like you, Mikkel, Miss Prism, Wenlock and many others.

In any case, the represent the later design of sheet, as far as I can tell, with simplified text. The round top threes may be accurate for that, but I can't immediately find a picture of the later style. Nick.

That means a lot coming from you, Mikkel. I know it's a cliché, but the thing about 'standing on the shoulders of giants' applies here - the knowledge, techniques and inspiration have come from you and other members of the forum - thank you, all!

As Mikkel noted, the design is from @Ian Smith's artwork. The flat-top 3s are certainly accurate in terms of the two pictures in the GW Wagons Appendix I used as my main point of reference - figs 22 and 23. Fig 22 shows a 5-plank with cast plates and a new, shiny sheet, like my model, though as I am modelling c.1908, the red livery is a bit weathered on the basis the last repaint was pre 1904. Fig 23 shows a 7-plank wagon sheeted with the exact sheet I have modelled - 31251. Your wider point is an interesting one - that flat and round top 3s were used in different contexts and (possibly) different times. Corporate branding wasn't quite so rigid then, I guess, though obviously considered. Nick.

Just to close the loop on this, here are some pictures of the finished wagon: Nick.

I’ve been on the same journey - one of the things I’ve found odd working in 7mm is that some things things are too small. I’m thinking of things like the diameter of shafts in brake gear, which in 4mm I was always trying to get as fine as possible. In 7mm I sometimes work out how big something should be to scale, and it’s chunkier than my instincts thought it would be. Nick.

Yes, 7mm scale is a bit of a pain from that point of view. The Americans are much more sensible with 1/4 inch / 1:48. A scale rule is very helpful, but for things like a scratch built wagon, I use a spreadsheet that I can put all the dimensions I need into as real-world feet and inches, and it converts to millimetres and (useful for materials thicknesses, etc.) thousandths of an inch. I've attached a sample, if that's useful. Measurements converted to 7mm scale.xlsx Nick.

That sounds like the same one. Nick.

In the edition I have (2nd), on the opposite page to the one with the section I quoted, there is a full page of drawings showing how the new lettering works for different wagon types (opens, vans, etc.). There is a text note that these drawings are based on print no. 61468, so while not quite the original, they presumably give some sense of it. I guess that drawing isn’t in the first edition either…? Nick

The 2009 edition says: ”1921 to 1937 The large 25in letters on freight stock survived the Great War and re-paints of 1919 came out with the full panoply although another change was in the offing. The main alteration of 1921 was to reduce the size of the letters "G” and "W" to a maximum of 16in high but the layout of the body sides and ends otherwise remained generally unchanged. A 1921 photograph of open wagon 98289 shows it with 25 inch letters, although this example was built by the Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Co Ltd. In conjunction with the change in lettering the CME's Office issued Circular 3627 on 17th August, 1921. This said: "Lettering on Great Western Wagons I shall be glad if you will arrange as wagons pass through your hands for repainting to paint G W in 1'4" letters. The lettering should be executed as per accompanying print No. 61468, and I will also ask you to kindly note that, in order to facilitate the work, a set of zinc templates has been forwarded to …. In the interests of economy, however, your people should be firmly instructed that the new letters are only to be painted on the vehicles when it is necessary to renew the existing lettering owing to the whole or part of the vehicle requiring repainting. Please acknowledge receipt."“ So unless Slinn got in a muddle with the date of the circular, that seems like solid evidence the change was instructed by the CME’s office in August 1921. Nick.

I'll check when I get home this evening, but I think the circular is given a specific date in edition 2....

Thanks, Stephen, for posting this picture, which I haven’t seen before. Do you have a date for it? Also - and apologies for some OT questions - I am curious about the number on what seems to be the inside of the sheet on the single-plank wagon. Above and a little to the right of the bowler hat, where the sheet is turned up and restrained by the tie, there are some numbers - possibly two ‘1’s and definitely a ‘4’. The 4 is the right way up, and not reversed, on what looks like it is the inside of the sheet. Were sheets painted with the lettering and numbers on both sides? In any case, the number should be upside down, as the sheet edge has been turned up - unless it was painted on the inside this way on purpose to make the number visible when the sheet was used turned-up on low-sided wagons? The other thing I am curious about is the state of both the sheets and the single plank wagon. Both sheets look like fabric, in the sense you can see the texture, and they are quite matt. This contrasts with phots of new sheets, which are smooth and with quite a shine. I am pondering this as I wrestle with making wagon sheets to look half-way realistic in 7mm scale. Also, the lettering on the single plank wagon is quite grubby - but what colour is the grub? Grey, brown, black? I realise any answer in somewhat speculative, in the absence of colour photographs, but I would be interested in people’s speculations! Nick.

I just followed the photo in the Slaters instructions - honest, yer Honour! If I had realised this was a controversial wagon, I would not have been so lazy and done the four digit number of the example in the Montague book on GRCW wagons… And thanks to @Mikkel for posting those great photos of the paint shops, though as @Compound2632 says, practice for PO wagons being painted in relatively small quantities of any one design would likely be rather different to the standard liveries of the railway companies themselves. Nick.

I have the 2009 revised and extended edition. The quote I referred to is in the section on wagon liveries, when it gets to the 1921 to 1937 period and the change from 25" lettering to 16". Possibly it isn't in the earlier edition, or just lands on a different page number. Nick.