DK123GWR

I wasn't really sure where to put this. On the one hand, I'm looking for some prototype information, on the other, I'm starting from models and working backward, which didn't really seem to fit with the Prototype Questions forum. I have a collection of wagons, from various sources. Unless otherwise stated, I need the following info:

1) What type of wagon is it (or should it be) a model of? For generic wagons, what wagon does it most closely resemble?

2) When were these wagons introduced, if this was later than the end of steam? I doubt that any of them were, but I have included the question just in case.

3) When were they withdrawn (and, if different, roughly when did the livery depicted become obsolete)?

As there are quite a few, I decided that a video would be easier to post than individual photos, so here they are being hauled by an A4 (this is my best low speed runner, so easiest to film).

The wagons are:

1) Birds eye livery, made in England by G&R Wrenn Ltd.

2) Kellogs livery, made in England, probably by Hornby

3) McVitie's livery, made in England by Hornby

4) Sheaf materials livery, made in China by Hornby

5) Shell livery, made in England by Hornby

6) Laugharne Morgan livery, made in China by Hornby

7) Bolsover livery, made in England by Hornby

8) Minera Lime livery, made in England

9) Great Western liveried Macaw B (Q1) made in Italy by Lima

10) BR grey liveried Bogie Bolster A (Q1) made by Hornby at a top secret location. This seems to be ex-LNER, despite coming in a set with a 0-6-0 PT in GWR livery. Can anybody confirm this?

12) BR bauxite liveried Lowmac (Q1) made in China by Hornby

13) Smith's livery, made in Great Britain by Hornby. This probably had a roof in the past.

14 and 15) BR standard brake vans, I believe (Q1). Black roof made in China, white roof in Great Britain, both by Hornby. What would the difference between the roof colours signify? I assume that these lasted for as long as brake vans were required. (Q3)

Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to provide. For some of the wagons (namely the Lowmac and bogie bolsters) I imagine that I would be able to obtain the information required with a little bit of digging, but have included them here in case anybody knows off the top of their head. However, as I don't know what over 50% of the wagons are (and can't find this infromation) I don't even have a starting point for the vans, open wagons, and tanker.

I've been able to find plenty of photos of the outsides of Travellers-Fare restaurants, but I am struggling to find any of the interiors. Searches such as 'travellers-fare interior' or 'inside travellers-fare' only show interiors of coaches. Any help would be much appreciated.

8 hours ago, Sotto said:

Well, I have experimented. Scraped some of the black paint off the post and off the arm and  holding either bare patch to one terminal of a 9v battery and the black wire to the other- hey presto, it lights up.

 

Therefore the circuit does indeed complete through the arm and post. The missing wire (it's green on mine) must be intended to attach to the inside of the post. Perhaps it's just some sort of interference fit so once pulled out, there is no trace of where it fitted. I am not going to try pulling it out of mine! 

Thanks. I thought that one of mine might be broken but then realised I'd knocked out the foam which pushes the contacts together while taking it apart. I guess that it's going to be almost impossible to remove the body given that this forms part of the circuit. A very frank conversation with a saw might be on the cards in order to remove the arm, but I have no idea what to do about those hideous lampshades.

After removing the post, I have found that mine don't have a second wire anywhere.

I have some very battered lights in my box of spares (no idea whether they work, so it's worth a try). As you can see from the pictures below, there is only a single wire and contact. How is the circuit completed? I assume through the body of the light but I don't know. Also, how can I remove the light itself from the remaining body? Thanks in advance for any help with this.

Thank you all for the help.

A rather unusual question here, but I would like to know what newspapers railway staff would have read. It is possible to find circulation figures to give an idea of the national trend (which would suggest The Sun is number one, then the the Daily Mirror, Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Daily Telegraph are the top five). Was this trend reflected among railway staff, or was one of the smaller papers more succesful with this audience? Thank you in advance for any help you may be able to provide.

Thank you.

I already had a lower speed limit over the points. What I really want to know (although I didn't make that clear) is the speed restriction for trains travelling down the up line to reach the crossover. Would this be the speed limit at the crossover?

18 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Unless your mainline to the right has dual directional running, the signal to exit the bay is just a two-aspect simple signal.

Would this signal be interlocked with all three of the sets of points in the diagram?

Here is a (simplified) diagram of the situation. I have a bay platform at the bottom. Trains leaving this must cross the down line to reach the up line. Both of these lines have a speed restriction of 50mph. How would this be signalled in the 1980s on the GWML? What would the speed restriction most likely be for trains leaving the bay platform? Any help would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

A few thoughts from a younger modeller of BR Blue (and sectorisation liveries, but blue is still my favourite):

1) I just like the livery

2) A lot of my rolling stock belonged to my father when he was a child, so I had a lot of BR Blue trains to start off with

3) There is a larger variety of rolling stock. The brief period when GWR were changing over from HSTs to class 800s, and still had a few items of rolling stock in FGW purple is the most interesting period in my lifetime. I still remember an HST going past with a mixture of green and purple, as well as a first class coach in swallow livery. Every other point in my life has been watching the same shaped trains go past, wearing either purple or green. My love for EWS 66s must have something to do with the breaks from the relative monotony that they provided.

4) Related to 3, there were loco-hauled trains in rail blue. I live in the former WR, and have had a few trips on former SR routes as well as one journey from Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly. I have never been hauled by a locomotive on the mainline (excluding class 43s). In fact, I'm not sure that I've seen a diesel locomotive moving at high speed before (although I did get a very good view of the Flying Scotsman a couple of years ago).

5) It's escapism. I don't want my hobby to look like the world I see every day.

19 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

should be ok as that's code 100

Thought so, but wanted to be sure.

2 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

You need to bear in mind that if you go down the Lima route (and that's pretty much the only cheapish option) the models will have "pizza cutter" wheels which are not likely to run well on code 75 track - should be OK on code 100.  

How about Hornby track?

24 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

eBay listing is cr*p. I'm not sure if that is eBay's fault (poor algorithms) or sellers who know nothing about what they are selling. Probably both!

 

It may help if you put some + in your search e.g. Lima+00+diesel.

 

Motorising a dummy involves a lot of chopping or use of a "spud" type bogie. Those have become a bit scarce (and expensive) now. Given your budget restrictions, if you can find some non-motorised coaches that represent powered units rather than unpowered trailers, make them up into units that you can couple to a powered model to make up a longer train. So long as you do not have any severe gradients on your layout, a powered DMU should be able to haul/propel an unpowered model. 

I'll just do that. I'm not worried about gradients as I don't have the space. Even if I did, we are talking about a section of 'Brunel's billiard table'.

I have had an idea for lighting HSTs without a second decoder. As HSTs (or at least, the older Hornby models that I have) do not have 'glass' in the windows for corridor connections, I believe that it should be possible to feed a wire through these windows along the length of a train to connect to the lights on the other power car. The issue is that if this is done using a single wire, it would be impossible to disconnect the power cars and coaches for storage. Therefore, I have come up with the idea of having one length of wire (technically two - one connected to the common and another to the function output) runninng through each carriage, with some sort of connection between carriages. My initial idea is to use a loop of wire on the power car end of the common wire and the dummy end of the fuction wire, with a hook which can be connected to it at the other end of each wire. The challenges that I have identified are:

1) Ensuring that there is enough spare length of wire at the end of each carriage that the tension in the wire is not the force pulling the train, especially on corners

2) Ensuring that the correct wires are linked to the correct components (especially important if I decide to add red lights in the future). The hook and loop system should help to identify each wire if installed correctly, and wires could also be coloured if needed.

3) Short circuits in between carriages. This could be overcome by wrapping black electricians tape around each connection during use, but there may be a better solution. If anybody has an idea, please let me know.

4) Ensuring a continuous supply of power to the dummy car lights. The loop and hook system is untested and may not work as hoped. A capacitor could be added to the dummy car, but if the supply is still unreliable then an alternative connection may be needed.

5) Ease of connecting the coaches. If the loop is small enough to ensure a smooth power supply, it may be difficult for my (rather clumsy) fingers to feed the hook throught the loop, especially in between a pair of coaches. Again, this might force me to seek an alternative system, so if anybody has an idea for a system which would avoid these issues I would be very grateful.

Given the above, do you think that this would work? Can anybody think of a way to overcome these issues, or any other issues I may not have thought of? I don't have any timescale for trying out this project - at the moment it is just a mad idea which I am seeking opinions out. If we can find a solution which works in theory (or if anybody has already developed a similar system) I will have a go at making it at some point and post my results.

EDIT:
How about one of these cut in half and soldered to either the decoder (in the loco), connecting wires (in the coaches) or lights (in the dummy). It might be quite big and look a little odd, but if it can be held so that it does not derail the train on corners it may overcome issues 3, 4, and 5, depending on how exactly it works. Any thoughts on this?

https://www.lego.com/en-gb/product/lego-power-functions-extension-wire-8886

2 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Yes, Lima will be your best bet here. Good models for their time.

 

Worth pointing out too that the WR had a great liking for hybrid units. You will sometimes be able to pick up one element of a DMU quite cheaply because it is not complete with the rest of the unit.

Thank you. I'd been planning on a bit of mix and match anyway having seen photos so this is definitely an option. I'll just have to make sure I remember to buy power cars as most of the individual unnits for sale are dummys. Failing this, how much work would be required to replace a regular bogie with a motorised one?

It's a bit frustrating that for every cheap Lima product you find on Ebay there seem to be three Bachmann ones, even when searching for 'Lima'. Does anybody know a way to get around this, or is it just the price you have to pay?

I am not sure if this is the right subforum, but I can't see a better place for it.

Where would the best place to look for cheaper models of 1st generation DMUs be. I am particularly  interested in the Thames Valley area. My research so far suggests that the following regularly operated in this area:

101

104

108

117

119

121

As well as a few of the following:

115

118

122

Hornby do not currently produce models of these (unless I'm blind), and the Dapol and Bachmann models are above the price that I would be willing to pay. Where can I find models of these on the second hand market (Ebay obviously, but is there anywhere else)? What are the best* manufacturers to look for? As mentioned, I am looking at the Thames Valley around the 1980s (possibly stretching into the early 1990s) so the liveries that I am looking for will largely be blue/grey and NSE. Thank you in advance for any advice.

*Any lack of detail on older models will not be an issue - they will fit right in to my existing 1980s/90s rolling stock. I am looking for a model which is likely to run well (or at least could be made to without too much work and after a conversion to DCC) and is recogniseable as that class (although I can't really tell the difference between similar types such as the 117 and 118, certainly not at a distance). As long as it meets these two conditions, price will determine which is best.

Thank you everybody. Those links were especially helpful. Railair definitely makes sense for my layout as it depicts a major intechange between all BR regions. As an aside, it's strange to consider that a connection with certain individuals was once considered desireable for a brand - I'm too young to remember any of them as entertainers.

One further question: How many posters would there have been? Would they have been on almost any available space or would they be more sparse, with just a handful around the station?

Another further question: And how large would they be?

What adverts, maps, information, etc. would have been displayed at major stations in the 1980s. I am thinking of Reading and Paddington in particular as they are the nearest to the location of my layout. I have attempted to find images but have not had much success, so any help would be very much appreciated.

6 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

That was in the 1990s, just before Lima stopped production. I can't remember exacly when.

£35-£40 was normal but their locos went as low as £19.99 & I remember buying a new 08 for £6.99 in Beatties around this time.

 

The difference will not be in line with inflation.

 

Manufacturers then reacted to modellers wanting better, more detailed models with more features, also making use of the fairly new DCC.

Once one started to offer better models at a higher price, the rest followed.

There was some grumbling about it at the time, but most of the modelling community accepted that better models cost more.

This means that the RailRoad range is roughly i line with inflation from the Lima models. I would argue that give the way inflation is calculated, with newer technologies added to the basket and older ones taken out they should be slightly below inflation. Railroad provides good coverage of steam, and good for post privatisation diesel. but everything else is non-existent. The second hand market does cater quite well for BR eras though, and I have found that most of my old Lima locomotives are good runners, the only issue is that whereas you can buy a new release whenever you feel like it, you can never guarantee exactly what somebody will be selling second hand. The price of this basic rolling stock is not an issue.

The next level up, including very basic lighting features should probably be cheaper than it is (again, taking into account the fact way inflation is calculated) but that's another topic.

What I really think makes these big ticket items so expensive for young people is actually nothing to do with model railways. It's social media. If you aren't connected online, you will lose socially (always last to hear news, etc.). As much as I hate to say it, young people today need smart phones (I am cringing at writing this). This means that they wouldn't just be putting their money towards a new locomotive. The best way to reduce the apparent cost of rolling stock may be for everybody to buy a Leagoo M12 instead of a bigger brand.

Conversely, social media could easily be use to draw people in, if harnessed correctly. Model railways are perfect for Instagram, and that point is rather self explanatory.

I think that the greater issue is scenery, because small costs repeated several times soon turn into very big costs. The commons sector should grow over the next few years, if all of the XR members actually translate their banners and chants into lifestyle choices (and many of them already have). I hope that model railways will follow this trend and that more suppliers like Wordsworth will spring up, as a greater variety of buildings available to print of will go a long way to resolving that. Furthermore, from the videos that I have seen scratchbuilding and weathering tend to focus on acheiving perfection where the stock on the market falls short of expectations. Almost all use specialist paints and other materials which look very expensive to a young person (considering that they are ultimately a peripheral feature). There was a poster earlier in this topic who uses water colours bought from Wilko, which I think are a much better starting point for the young person who is trying things out for the first time.

9 hours ago, JDW said:

The crux of it is, the more you do, the better you make it, the more people will want and expect. Which drives up quality, results in more features, but pushes it into the 'finescale model' end of the hobby, and out of the reach of younger ones, seemingly more so than before, at least within the last few decades. It doesn't feel like all that long ago that I was saving up my pocket money for things like Lima locos (£35-£40), a Lima 156 (£45-£50) or a Bachmann 158 (£50-£55). What hope these days for someone on pocket money - OK, older models are still available, but even the latest releases of those are expensive, £100+ for a Hornby 156 for example. 

What date was this? I'm trying to work out whether that is in line with inflation.

6 hours ago, JDW said:

Then go to the New Hornby Class 91 thread here and look at the discussion around how we need DCC this and DCC that and to allow for x and y and every other combination of lighting and pantograph and coupling and and and ...

I've just skimmed through that and I am astounded. The best example:

On 09/01/2020 at 11:49, Pete the Elaner said:

it won't be able to provide switchable day/night lights or running with 1 end off, which are possible with the Bachmann 90.

I had hoped that the latter had introduced standards which will be adopted on all new models.

What is the point in switchable day/night lights on a model railway? Can you really tell the difference? Does it matter if you can?

I understand the desire for more features, but only the best of the high end models should come with them by default. I have never tried, but I imagine that it would be possible to change the lighting systems and solder in a more advanced decoder if desired. I would have thought that it is better to provide a lower priced model with fewer standard features but room (by which I mean physical space) to make the desired improvements than to price many people out of the market for all but the most basic models. We generally accept that a pristine model which can be weathered by the consumer makes more sense than a pre-weathered one since it is suitable for everybody. Surely this principle can be applied to electronics too.

One criticism which I think is legitimate is that if this model has far fewer features than rivals then that should be reflected in the price.

1 hour ago, Adam FW said:

The cheapest repaint for it would be to go for BR black, in which case you can repaint it from supplies at your local poundshop or B&M bargains (or whatever is similar and open), just grab a can of automotive primer (tends to be grey, but watch out for a rouge can of silver mixed in with the primers, I've made that mistake before) and some matte black. Depending on the stock some stores have other colours, my local poundland has had yellow, orange, green, blue, red, silver and white in the past so you may be able branch out into more colourful liveries.

 

Remove the body from the chassis. If you have the model I'm thinking of, it already has wasp stripes so using masking tape cover them up and any other areas you want to remain original. Then apply several thin coats of primer (give it some time to dry between coats), later on once the primer has dried apply the top coat in several thin coats again. Let the paint dry then remove the masking tape, add decals later if you want.

 

If the model doesn't already have wasp stripes apply primer to the entire body, then yellow paint to the areas you want to stripe, once that's dried use masking tape to cover up any areas you want to stay yellow and then apply the black paint.

 

Tamiya and some other companies make thin masking tape for modeling which is perfect for wasp stripes. I used 2mm masking tape and enitrely poundland spray paints on my 3D printed pannier tank body.

 

 

If you want BR blue then you're going to want to go down the pot of airfix/humbrol paint route for cheapness and use a brush as I assume you don't have an airbrush or want to buy railmatch spray paints, alternatively you can also buy spray paint for around £5 a can on amazon for more colour choice but your unlikely to get a perfect match to BR blue as you'd be guessing the shade from the image on a computer screen.

Thank you for the advice. I am currently leaning toward Rail Blue as by 1985 (roughly the target period of my layout) you would probably have to scrape around for the last remaining black 08s, if any were still in service (and I've never really like the black ones).

Yes, although I do not have the model to hand I believe that it does have the wasp stripes. Where would be the cheapest place to source decals for a class 08? And just to confirm, will it be OK to apply the primer without removing the current paint?

I have a class 08 in 'Dino Safari' livery which I would like to repaint into something which looks a little more prototypical (I don't think an 08 ever made it to the Isle of Wight, where it would probably be closest to replicating an actual livery). It is likely to be Rail Blue. This will be the first time that I have repainted anything so I would like to know what the cheaest way to repaint something and have it look reasonable is. By 'reasonable' I mean that the colours should look correct to a normal person (like me), and that it should be possible to paint all of the major details (wasp stripes being the obvious example on a class 08). It's only an unboxed, second hand example of a locomotive initially offered as part of a train set marketed at young children, so I'm happy to use this for my first attempt at repainting a loco (I will probably try out the techniques on a broken wagon first though, just to be safe). Thank you for any help and advice you may be able to provide.

50 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

So in order to not reverse the polarity, is this as simple as making sure it's the same way on the track all the time?

No. With DCC the polarity changes thoudands of times each second, and is not controlled by which way the dummy is placed onto the track. You need to use diodes to ensure that no current is able to flow the wrong way through the LED and damaging it. I feel like the answer to the original question, if everything is working correctly, will be:

18 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Is it [the diode] required now I've changed the light to an LED?

 

You didn't before (with a bulb), but you do need it now.