ixionmodels

Thanks, Mike. Glad to know that they reached you safely. We're thrilled that you like them. @monkeysarefun is an outstanding designer!

We also printing the Morris 1100 and a couple of our other UK cars - Lotus Cortina and Ford Capri - plus some of our scanned colour figures in 1/120th scale  for our local hobby shop's Hornby TT:120 display shelf. The bigger they are printed, the better they look!  

Regards,

Lindsay O'Reilly (co-owner of both Ixion Model Railways and West Edge 3D in sunny NSW, Australia).

On 22/11/2023 at 22:43, Revolution Ben said:

Having seen the TT:120 Class 50 and HST at a show recently, and having already pre-ordered a 66, I am looking forward to what emerges and as we have said to customers asking at shows we have already identified several models in our range that would be suitable for TT:120.

Ben’s observations are spot on. Successful model railway manufacturers are canny. (If they’re still in business, that’s all the evidence you need.) As I noted a few pages back, we follow the trends as well as the money.  The great thing about the early years of a new scale is that so many potential models are up for grabs, and crazy personal favourites can be considered, as well as the ‘tried and true’ obvious classics like the GWR staples: 14XX, Collett 0-6-0 and small Prairie; B-Set, Toad brakevan… Plus the Jinty, J94, J72 etc etc - you know the list. 

You can be sure that manufacturers who know their British model production history  will be recalling how OO and N got started, and what locos and stock were offered then that built momentum and the now loyal customer base. Their number one consideration is, of course: Is there a profit in it for us? Hornby (and of course Peco) have done a remarkable thing in offering track, accessories, locos and stock in whole new scale without an existing base of kits and users, and deserve plaudits for taking what had to be a gamble. A massive one, in Hornby’s case. And now the smaller sharks will be musing on whether nipping in and biting off a chunk of TT120 might be to their advantage. I think some will do it, so long as they can sell direct for a while - as Hornby did - in order to return their investment faster which makes the next model possible sooner. Regardless of the selling method, I feel pretty confident in saying that in a few years’ time the range of available and announced/promised UK outline TT120 models will be vastly different to what is on the list now. 
So here’s a fun speculation: which existing company do you think might be the next to join Hornby and Peco in RTR 2.5mm scale? (Spoiler alert: it’s not Ixion Models. 😄)

I am one of those people who have difficulty grasping the size of a model scale without actually having something to hold in my hand. I have looked at the TT:120 display in my local model shop in Newcastle (NSW, Australia) but am too cheap to pay for an orphan loco or wagon just to have it sitting on a shelf. I had some spare time yesterday, and a troll through the Thingiverse website turned up a few 3D files suitable for printing in 1:120. This is a doddle for me because, as well as Ixion Models, I also co-own West Edge 3D, a full-colour 3D printing business.
I loaded an STL file of a static model of a TT:120 7-plank wagon into a simple 3D painting program and gave it a black chassis, buffers and ironwork, and red sides and ends. For fun, the oval plate on the solebar was coloured yellow. Out of a misguided sense of mischief I then resized a Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST body file (that my Ixion partner Phil Badger had made some years ago for the 2mm Scale Association) to 1:120. (This is the same engine Ixion made in 7mm scale). I ‘painted’ the first one all over green, but it wasn’t very convincing, so I put in a bit more effort and made a red one with a black smokebox and funnel, and a yellow cabside Maker’s plate. I printed them all on our Stratasys J55 and here they are. My evaluation?

The cyan, magenta and yellow resins the J55 uses are transparent unless of a certain thickness, and this is painfully obvious on the wagon body. The cab roof of the red loco body suffers from the same issue. Nevertheless, for a couple of hours’ work, I got some properly sized models to help me understand the physical size of TT:120 models. I had previously printed some of our West Edge 3D cars and human figures in 1:120 for display on Frontline Hobbies’ Hornby TT:120 display shelf and found that it truly is a beguiling and attractive scale. 

The photos here show the models described above posed in front of an Ixion N gauge ‘Manor’;  then on my hand;  and also the above-mentioned TT:120 display in Frontline Hobbies.  
[Warning: commercial plug.] All the cars and figures shown in the third photo and many more can be seen and purchased at www.westedge3d.com.au/shop; just choose your scale, N to Gauge 1, from the drop-down menu. 

Lindsay. 

59 minutes ago, osbornsmodels said:

question for Ixion Lindsay. Wasn't the original Ixion Manor body nearer to TT120 than N before the remake? If they were TT120 are the original body tools no longer useable?

regards, M.

Hi Maurice, the moulds were destroyed, being to a useless scale. They were oversized, but not to the extent of being to 2.5mm scale. Cheers, Lindsay. 

On 08/11/2023 at 05:28, J-Lewis said:

“So far it looks like TT:120 could be Hornbys equivalent of Dapol’s O Gauge?  A ‘new’ scale that creates a new market and allows them to at least partly own the scale. I think ten years ago few people would have predicted O gauge would be seeing such a jump in popularity and so many new RTR models?”

With due respect to Dapol for their efforts since, my answer to the question above is:  We did. In 2013 Ixion Model Railways released the first mass-produced injection moulded finescale steam locomotive: the Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST. When I phoned from Australia and sounded out a major O gauge retailer in - let’s call the town ‘Darkpond’ - he asked how many we were planning to make. I said ‘1,500’. He actually laughed out loud, and said ‘OK, it’s your money. But there’s no market for them’. We made and sold 2,000, plus 1,000 Fowlers before moving to Australian engines. 
 

Lots of companies are, I imagine, watching TT:120 quite closely. With so few obvious models left in OO, new releases are some pretty esoteric prototypes. RTR OO9 is now a reality. Smaller manufacturers will wait until there’s a proven ‘critical mass’ of customers, and then they’ll jump. Some might dip the toe with a wagon first, others will do all the groundwork on a popular loco and then announce it along with the CAD images and/or 3D printed pilot model. That’s the way we’d do it. 
 

If buyers stay loyal and Hornby keep even some of their ambitious promises, in a year or two the models available will expand dramatically. Model railway manufacturers are businesses, and will follow the money and the market. History and O gauge prove it. Hurrah for capitalism! 🤓

Regards from 🇦🇺

Lindsay O’Reilly, Director, Ixion Model Railways Australia Pty Ltd.

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

It is "the Australian business model" (which evolved in part because there really aren't that many model shops in your average state. Sydney runs to about 3 - Bergs, Casula and Hobbyco)....

Hornby have accidentally copied another part of the "Australian model" , which is sales by direct pre-order and the model being made once the orders are in - because the stuff sells straight through on arrival and people are effectively pushed into pre-ordering what they want as there is very limited stock on the shelf.

 

Both these statements are only accurate in part, and quite wrong in others: a few Australian model manufacturers - Austrains in particular - have had a sales model of selling direct until tooling costs are covered, and then supplying shops; but most, including my own Ixion Models, supply shops from the outset on the release of a new model, as well as selling direct from the company website as a service to modellers in rural and remote areas who can be 1,000 miles or more from a model shop. As to there being only 3 model shops in Sydney, this is simply not so. I live in Newcastle, so I don't know them all, but I've also been to Woodpecker Model Railways in Pendle Hill (recently and famously visited by Rod Stewart), Australian Modeller in Seven Hills, Model Railroad Craftsman in Blacktown, Hobbyland in Hornsby, Bob's Models & Hobbies in Seven Hills, and ScaleModelCo in Thornleigh...

14 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

They look really good!  Surely you have to do a Landcrab after the ADO16? (And a Landrab ute, which I am delighted to discover actually existed).

@Flying Pig, sorry, you have lost this Aussie. What’s a Landcrab, and an ADO16?

14 hours ago, Nile said:

From elsewhere on t'internet, way back in '08 I found this quote:

 

"we discovered a scale error of roughly 8% in virtually all dimensions of the production Manor"

 

which I calculate made it 1:137 scale. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Hi @Nile, that’s correct - I assumed the OP was referring to the second, correct production run of the N gauge Manor.  All the oversized models were returned to the factory and scrapped in order to recycle the (jolly expensive) titanium weights for the second, correct production run. I retained one for company archive purposes, and Ixion co-owner Phil Badger may have one. I don’t think the late Chris Klein (our then UK Ixion partner) kept one, and I thus doubt there are any others out there “in the wild”. Note though that the Mk1 chassis was still correctly gauged for 9mm track, so my previous comment about the challenge of regauging for 12mm/TT120 still applies. 

2 hours ago, natterjack said:

Hi Lindsay

 

Just out of interest, what was the actual wheelbase of your original N Gauge Manor? With a bit of adjustment might the chassis be useful in TT120?

Hi @natterjack, sorry, I’ve no idea of the exact measurements now. Find a Manor drawing and divide by 148 is how I imagine you could get them! 🤓

I doubt, however, because it had a cast metal chassis with outside cylinders, that you could widen it in any simple way from 9mm to 12mm gauge. 

And, gentle reader, if you were wondering what else is available in the West Edge 3D colour 3D-printed car range, here’s a couple of extra photos for your illumination. Most are Aussie cars. 

Despite my user name here (I co-own Ixion Models) I wanted to post an update on what my other company West Edge 3D has been up to recently in TT:120 in Australia. We own a Stratasys J55 full-colour polyjet 3D printer, and produce a growing range of colour scanned and colour printed scale figures and accessories: see www.westedge3d.com.au. Think ModelU, but in full colour. 🤓
With Hornby TT:120 arriving at my local model shop (Frontline Hobbies in Newcastle, NSW) the shop asked if we could print our stocked scale figures in 1:120. We went one better, and also printed 3 of our scale cars as well as four figures for them. Most of the 22 cars we are soon to release are Australian prototypes, but our designer has drawn up a Ford Capri, Lotus Cortina and Morris 1100, all in multiple colour schemes. The photos show the figures and cars added to the TT:120 display cabinet. We intended the cars for N scale, but they seem to work well in TT and HO as well. 
The next car will be a 1963 Morris 850 - the first Mini, and chosen because it was my first car! If there is interest from customers, we will over time add more British models like Escorts and Cortinas, the Ford Zephyr, Austins etc. You can see lots more photos and info in our recent Facebook and Instagram posts - search “West Edge 3D”. If you’re not a Facebook user, our FB page is also reproduced at the bottom of our website’s home page and you can scroll back  through the posts there. Cheers, Lindsay O’Reilly. 
 

3 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

 

Your 3D printed figures suddenly make ModelU look like old technology!! VERY nice!! I can't see the figures you posted above on your website though?

 

The American loco crew figures are the first two sets on this page: https://westedge3d.com.au/shop/ (American Loco Crew 1 and American Loco Crew 2.)

Click on one, and you'll find a drop-down menu showing all the readily available scales and the relevant price for the chosen scale. Postage options are shown in the checkout.

We can also print in any custom scale, like 1:24 or 1:64 - we're jolly helpful and flexible chaps. 😀

I co-own two companies, Ixion Model Railways (which you might have heard of), and West Edge 3D (which you probably haven't) 😀.

The latter has recently produced these North American loco crew figures, which are made from our own colour scans and printed in full colour on our Stratasys J55 colour polyjet printer. No painting required! They will look good on my shortline cameo layout alongside the MP15 and the GP60. We can print them in any scale, and orders from HO modellers in the USA have been particularly strong. You can see them and more at www.westedge3d.com.au/shop.

PS - I know the second Reading MP15 is sold - sorry!

Cheers from Oz, Lindsay.

And more pics of Chris' collection which will all be for sale. (See my previous post.) Road trucks and track has started to appear in his recent posts.

Further to my question of a while back about O scale availability in the UK, I thought I'd share what happened then. Just as I had decided it was too hard to find US O scale things anywhere, let alone at home here in Australia, a gent named Chris Corton appeared on a Facebook group I'm a member of with a ton of contemporary US O models to sell. His collection was huge, by my standards. I picked up a Reading Lines MP15 and a Vermont Railway GP60, both Atlas O DCC & Sound fitted for AUD $500 and $800 respectively, plus a corn syrup tank car from the same manufacturer for $120. A chance find of four older 40' & 50' boxcars at AUD$25 each has seen my 5' x 2'6" micro fully stocked!

Chris is only getting to some of his collection each week, so there's more to come. I don't know if he would ship to the UK but you could ask him if any of his collection appeals.

The Facebook group is called "Aussie Larger Scale Model Train Trading Post", and if you join you could scroll back and see what's already been posted. I've posted some pics of what I bought, plus other photos he sent me of the collection, to whet your appetites...

I'll have to add the pics over a few posts as there are so many. Enjoy!

5 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Only slightly related to this but out of interest - is there much (or any) Australian-outline TT modelling going on?

None at all that I've ever seen, unless there are some enthusiast modellers doing European TT120 at home. It's too close in size to HO, which is the dominant scale with large RTR ranges available.

6 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 Other retailers have approached us in the past asking for a 'basic' starter set but we just don't have the kind of business model that can produce a train set with track and controller included.

cheers, Ben A.

Good to see another manufacturer here making an obvious point:  no model producer can do everything that customers want. This is a regular experience for Ixion Models.  In a letter or phone call, via email or at a show, a punter will come up to us and say: “I am absolutely convinced that the 0-10-2 Woop Woop Railway ‘Desert Queen’ would be an absolute rip-snorter of a sales success. Why don’t you make that??  No-one else has done it. I’d buy two!”

Our response is:

1. It’s not in our current model program ( but thanks for the suggestion; we’ll add it to our list of customer requests).

(But if the proposer isn’t satisfied with that answer, then it’s time for:)

2. Well, there are probably compelling economic reasons why no-one else has made it; have you pondered those reasons?

3. The MOQ (minimum order quantity) of the factory we use is 1500 for locomotives. Once you buy your two, that still leaves us a quarter of a million dollars out of pocket and with 1498 [turkeys] left to sell. And no profit on this model = no next model. And therefore no more Ixion Models. Are you sure you can’t find the cash to buy 750 for yourself so we can at least break even?

Revolution Ben is, I’m sure, familiar with the old saw:

Q: How do you make a small fortune in model railways?

A: Start with a large one. 

Hornby have the resources to take the leap into TT120 - a truly accurate scale/gauge combination, a description that can’t be applied to UK N gauge and OO - that is compatible with TT120 models from everywhere else in the world. (We in the rest of the world also have the very accurate HO and 1:160 N scales.) I for one would love to see TT120 boom in the UK, and have no vested interest so personally I don’t really care if it cannibalises modellers, cash and enthusiasm from N gauge and OO. I actually don’t think it will - people are invested both financially and emotionally in the models they already have - but if TT120 grows, you can be sure other manufacturers will grasp the opportunity to make a quid. They’ll wait until there’s a ‘critical mass’ of buyers, that’s just good business sense. But they’ll watch closely, just the same,

Phil Badger and I (and our late, great mate Chris Klein) wanted to do the GC Robinson 8K ROD 2-8-0 for our first Ixion model, in N gauge, but we let ourselves be talked out of it in favour of the GWR Manor. We’re still filthy that we didn’t go with our gut on that one, not least because 13 of them ran on the Richmond Vale Railway in the Hunter Valley in NSW, less than 20 miles from my home, and we love that engine. But, looking way ahead, what about a TT120 ROD? Now that would really be something… https://livinghistories.newcastle.edu.au/nodes/view/94224

How long before we could sell 1500, I wonder?

Image by Brian R Andrews from the University of Newcastle Special Collections. Licensed under CC BY-NC 4.0.

9 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

That reminds me - they are listed as "O Gauge". A simple 'shorthand' guide to U.S. O models is that 3-rail tends to be listed as "O Gauge" whereas 2-rail is listed as "O Scale".

It's not always the case of course.

Thanks for that info. A piece of useful advice I have picked up is that MTH make 2-rail trains (locos and stock) and these are identified by the last character of the serial number, which helpfully most U.S. model shops include in their listings. If the last number is a '2' it's 2-rail, a '3' mean it's 3-rail, and a '1' (if I remember correctly) means it's coarse-scale O-27.

A question without notice, if I may jump in and ask the UK residents on here: Do you buy your North American O scale 2-rail models from shops in the UK? If so, which ones have good stock? However, if you purchase from the USA, who are your preferred retailers? I've found 2-rail locos pretty thin on the ground using Google searches.

4 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

Lindsay - I fear you are mistaken. I design from scratch [using 2D and 3D CAD and sometimes with the aid of 3D scanning equipment] kits for road and rail vehicles [mainly 7mm scale] that include lorries, buses, steam locomotives, rail wagons, electric and diesel locomotives/multiple units as well as conversion kits and single/multiple bespoke components for other kit producers. 

Arun, I stand corrected. I do think perhaps we're talking about somewhat different things though. You mention above designing steam locomotives kits; there's a notable difference between designing a kit for a modeller to build at home, and a RTR loco, and that is that everything for the RTR loco MUST fit, first time, every time. Our minimum run is 1500 locos, built on a production line by skilled workers, in an environment where time is money. There can be absolutely no fettling, no trial-and-error fitting, no leaving it and coming back to it if a particular assembly is challenging. That's why manufacturers use expensive spark-eroders to create the tooling - the tolerances are incredibly fine. And those finished locos have to be robust and 'fit for purpose', or consumer law protections can be enacted on the manufacturer. Changing the scale of a loco where every component has been designed from scratch for that scale - commercially, for a factory build - we know it's cheaper to start from scratch than to adjust every component, not just to the new size but also a different set of tolerances.

That said, I completely agree with you that there is now a 'middle ground' of alternatives to overseas factory manufacturing for short-run models - those you mentioned of 3D printed tooling, resin casting and 3D printed components are perfect examples. The problem arises when considering how to make them as RTR items "here" (whether 'here' be the UK or Australia). The biggest cost is labour. All RTR models are just kits that someone else has put together and finished!  Building kits is time-consuming and thus expensive; but it's also difficult in 'bulk' to replicate the finish of Chinese factories, which use incredibly complex and accurate painting masks and very expensive silicon pad printers to get the incredibly fine multicolour lettering and lining that we now expect. This is something that you acknowledged in the post above, and it's probably the insurmountable obstacle. Producing the components 'here' can now be done at a reasonable cost (a Chinese-made RTR loco costs around 200,000 to 300,000 US dollars to make); turning that into a RTR, consistent-quality saleable model that you can proudly sell under your own brand and offer a warranty on is the challenge. It can of course be done, but from our research only at a price that would kill the model as a commercial proposition at this point in time. For example, for a simple inside-cylindered steam loco in a no-lining livery we calculated a 250% price premium for an Australian-built loco; and 350% for a complex outside-cylindered Walschaerts valve geared loco in a fully lined livery. If these kinds of increases are the same in the UK it would mean a Chinese-made £180 loco could be as much as £500-600 for a home-country built version.

However, a lower-detail, simple livery loco would be a lot less - Union Mills in N gauge for example are in this market and making a success of it; and Dapol and Peco have sophisticated pad printers in the UK and are doing beautiful work in their own factories. I feel that we're both right, in our own areas areas of expertise. No-one would be more delighted than the RTR manufacturers to see home-country production become viable again: we'd be freed from the shackles of paying everything in $US, and from the challenges of manufacturing in an increasingly totalitarian country with a growing antipathy to the West. But those Chinese factories we use are run by ordinary Chinese people who are also now our friends (and often fellow modellers), and they take tremendous pride in their work, and we like working with them. Western modellers indeed are indebted to them for the investments they've made in plant, technology and manufacturing systems, to bring us the models we have.

If there are entrepreneur modellers in the UK prepared to invest in that "middle ground" of lower-detail, low-number production runs of RTR models, it is a market segment that could flourish and provide all those 'special interest' models that are not viable to make in the thousands. As well as OO N and O, TT:120 perhaps offers just such an opportunity; what do you think? Is anyone out there prepared to investigate (and invest in) that market segment in the current climate?

3D Printed Figure Size Comparison - OO / TT120 / N

One of the things that RMWebbers have pondered is the actual size of TT120 models, given that no UK outline models in this scale are as yet available to look at "in the hand". So I thought it might be useful to offer photos of scale figures from the range available from my company West Edge 3D in Australia to help get our heads around the size of models in 1/120th scale.

These photos show the same figures side-by-side in 1:76 OO, TT120, and 1:148 N. In one pic some vehicles from the Oxford range are included for reference. As you can see, they're a little less than half the size of 4mm scale people. (Note that the photos are, as MRJ likes to call them, "cruel enlargements".)

By way of explanation, these figures are 3D printed in full colour on our Stratasys J55 polyjet printer - no painting required! (See more at www.westedge3d.com.au.)  We have been making the scans ourselves with an EinScan H colour scanner; the GrabCAD Print software that drives the printer can resize them to any scale size: 00 is 1.32% real size, TT120 is 0.833% full size, etc.

However, yesterday we discovered a brilliant iPhone app called 'Trnio' (pronounced "Turnio") which uses a cloud server to process photos into colour scans which can be saved as .OBJ files for colour printing, or .STLs for FDM filament or SLA resin printing. It costs just USD $5.00, and was used to produce the figure below in the tan t-shirt and blue work pants. If you want to produce your own scans of people & objects with just a phone, it's potentially brilliant. It does need an internet connection to upload the photos it takes, and download the finished scan.

(PS - my RM Web user name is correct - I'm also one of the co-owners of Ixion Model Railways.) 

Figure Size Comparison - OO / TT120 / N

One of the things that many RMWebbers here have pondered is the actual size of TT120 models, given that no UK outline models in this scale are as yet available to look at "in the hand". So I thought it might be useful to offer photos of scale figures from the range available from my company West Edge 3D in Australia to help get our heads around the size of models in 1/120th scale.

These photos show the same figures side-by-side in 1:76 OO, TT120, and 1:148 N. In one pic some vehicles from the Oxford range are included for reference. As you can see, they're a little less than half the size of 4mm scale people.

By way of explanation, these figures are 3D printed in full colour on our Stratasys J55 polyjet printer - no painting required! See more at www.westedge3d.com.au.

PS - my RM Web user name is correct - I'm also one of the co-owners of Ixion Model Railways. 😃

Our dear friend Chris Klein passed away in April 2020, so we can consider this thread (and all his others) closed.

Lindsay O’Reilly, Ixion Model Railways Australia Pty Ltd.