Stuart

Had a quick scan through one Geo C. O'Hara book (still two to go) and the Illustrated History of Glasgow's Railways last night and I has not turned up a J36 on passenger duty, J37s seem to have been preferred.

 

Jim

I'm away from my books at the moment so can't check, but I'm pretty sure Reedsmouth's J36 had a turn to Scotsgap on the two daily passenger trains. I also think the J36 worked the fortnightly SO passenger Kielder/Keilder - Hexham and late night return until Reedsmouth shed closed.

 

Stuart

I believe it is this one -

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ESK-VALLEY-LINE-WHITBY-TO-MIDDLESBROUGH-PART-ONE-1960-to-1998/253316980929?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

I think you are right and it's been ordered.

Many thanks for the pointer.

Stuart

I got a copy from George at Grosmont Bookshop a while ago, might be worth giving him a try.

Thanks for the info.

Stuart

Anthony, I look forward to seeing how you progress with this. For a while we lived in Grosmont so know the line into Whitby. You may wish to seek out the DVD entitled "Esk Valley Line Part 1" that starts with some interesting video of Whitby in the early 1960s. Apart from Class 101 and 108 DMUs, I suspect that the NE Region Class 104s made it to Whitby and in the 1960s video I recall seeing a Class 110 unit looking brand new. Good luck!

What is the DVD you mention, please? I've tried googling it without success. I too was a Grosmont resident back in the 60s/70s, using the line to get to school in Whitby, and definitely remember class 104 DMUs.

1966/67 WTT -

3L16 0500 Parcels from Preston, Kendal 0638/0643, Windermere 0703.

3L17 1120 Parcels from Lancaster, Oxenholme 1200/1212, Kendal 1217/1227, Windermere 1245

 

3L85 ECS (Vans) Windermere 1300, Kendal 1318, to work 1A65

1A65 SX 1820 Parcels Kendal to Kilburn High Road

 

1967 Summer WTT

6L25 SX Carnforth 0700, Kendal 0742/1025, Burneside R, Windermere 1050.

6L24 SX Carnforth 1338, Milnthorpe 1358/1430, Oxenholme 1446/1505, Kendal 1515/1612, Burneside 1620.

 

6P56 SO Kendal 1210, Milnethorpe 1235/1310, Carnforth 1327

8P56 SX Windermere 1240, Burneside 1300/1335, Kendal 1345/1444, Carnforth 1516 (6P56 from Kendal)

6P58 SX Burneside 1655, Kendal 1705/1735, Carnforth 1810

 

Plus loco hauled passenger and scheduled light engine workings to/from Carnforth MPD.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Stuart

Just spent a fascinating couple of hours at this place (big thanks to Mrs S who spotted it in the Zagreb Times).

HO exhibition layout with multi-level lines in effective mountain scenery including spiral and underfloor section (glass covered!). According to their flyer, 1000m of track and 100 trains with plans to extend downstairs into the basement via another spiral.

Appropriate stock with locomotive (mostly German or Swiss as far as I could judge) which all ran very well and smoothly under DCC control.

Couple of smaller layouts downstairs which you can have a go at driving - meant to encourage younger visitors.

Guys are so friendly, most speaking very good English and keen to talk about railway modelling.

Website is www.backo.hr.

It's maybe 50m off Ilica, the main street in Zagreb and well worth a visit if you're in this part of Croatia.

 

Stuart

During the mid-late 1940s, a Scarborough-Pickering goods and return was worked by a Dairycoates engine. B15s were used until they were all withdrawn (1947).

In1949, still a Dairycoates engine with Scarborough men,

 

Stuart (I also lived half a mile away at one point)

Derek,

 

I don’t think I ever got close enough to see what the actual track construction of the cross-over was.

 

I do remember 805/90 lb plain track in NER 4-hole chairs – 2 screws, 2 pins, but nothing about the scissors, I’m afraid.

 

From OS maps, the scissors wasn’t part of the original layout, in fact, there’s no connection shown from the down main/Platform 1 line to the up main after Bog Hall on the 1894 map. Perhaps this was when it was an ‘Arrivals platform’ and ‘Departure platform’ station?

 

The 1913 map shows the scissors crossing, so, at least originally, it was installed by the NER. Would the LNER or BR have renewed the whole thing, or simply replaced individual parts? Incidentally, no no.18 points shown.

 

By 1928, 18 points have appeared as well.

 

By 1968, platform 3 has gone, and 23 points into P4 are depicted around 10m further north than on the 1928 map.

 

P4 was rarely used, except by a dated or SO service which sat there to stay out of the way or the normal service.

 

Unless from P1, any departure tended to be full(ish) throttle and the only ‘rough’ bits I recall were over-enthusiastic traverses of the scissors.

 

Regards

 

Stuart

Hello Stuart

 

I don't suppose you would happen to know whether the scissor crossing was original NER or later LNER, would you? I can see a small part of it and it looks like having NER chairs but with LNER check rails and as I cannot be sure of the date- it might well be a 'make do and mend' scenario. I am assuming it is a C10 based scissor, as the (L)NER didn't seem to build others.

.....

After maybe 20+ hours of studying the station throat, I have identified the turnouts that it was comprised of (B5.5 and a B8). However, the turnout from the up onto platform 3/4 is still a bit of a mystery. It is definitely a B switch (or the LNER designation of a 17.6ft spring switch) and all the photos measure as a 1:7, yet it has a long entry straight that one would expect from a 1:9. There are photos of DMUs leaving under power, which would suggest a 'fast' turnout. I can only assume an entry straight was put in place due to the potential for a reverse curve as it returns parallel.

 

Any ideas on that would be appreciated (though I bet you wish you'd not replied to the last one now. Haha).

Cheers
Derek

Derek,

A bit late in responding, but, the lines from Bog Hall as far as the scissors crossover were worked as normal up and down lines for passenger trains. Even the ECS to and from the sidings by Bog Hall were supposed to be propelled along the down and up mains respectively. The goods yard was accessed from Bog Hall by the old level crossing there, so the goods trains didn't come down to the station - at least, i never saw one there.

 

The reason there was no FPL on 12 points is because it was not a normal route for passenger trains.

 

The scissors crossover was the 'directing' point for all four (three when i was a regular user) platforms for inward bound trains. The theatre on the bracket told the driver which platform.

 

Coming out of Platform 1, it was as Russ says, top arm read through 18 points to the up main, the upper read ahead and through 12 points onto the up main. Same lever, which arm rose depended on how the points were set.

I think one of the signalmen explained why 18 points were there, but 40+ years on, I can't remember the reason.

 

This is a most enjoyable thread - I lived near Hutton Gate station 1962-68 so can just remember the railcars on the Guisborough branch, and then in the Esk Valley 1968-75, travelling daily to school in Whitby so it brings back a lot of memories.

 

Thanks gentlemen

 

Stuart

 

Steve

 

After reading your comment above, I realise that I was reading the schematic incorrectly and that 19 is a FPL control.

 

28 is definately the P2 starter, and 20 must be the P1 starter, with the ground signal being used for the middle road.

 

I think you are right that 20 is a double signal- until summer 1953, the station had an overall roof and I suspect that this obscured the signal for any trains on platform 1. I believe that the signals had to be at certain heights, so the upper* arm had to be where it is, but the lower arm was also installed to assist with visibility.

 

In respect of the departure/arrival platforms- yes Whitby did use this practice when built. I haven't been able to find out when it ceased, although I suspect it was during the 1860 rebuild- they were struggling with space then anyway and the extra shunting movements would have been problematic. Although this point is disputed and some (including those writing the conservation report used by Scarborough Borough Council) seem convinced that such practices carried on until much later than that.

 

I think that there *might* be an error on that schematic anyway. It shows the lower left point of the scissor crossover as not having a FPL. You might think that it doesn't need one as it is the only one of 4 that isn't facing. However, from Bog Hall crossing the two lines were bi-directional. *However* that bi-directional signalling might only have been for access to the goods yard or for light movements, hence the *might*.

I think I know someone who will be able to answer that.

Going back to late 60’s and early 70s, the school trains on the Esk Valley (0720ish from Middlesbrough and 4.08 ish back from Whitby) were a four-car set and a power twin.  The four-car set normally sat in the centre siding at Whitby until required for the return school train. I think everything else in the normal timetable was power twins although I am sure I remember three-car sets on their own – maybe they were the summer extras from Newcastle? From talking to a friend (ex Darlington driver) I think two power to one trailer was the minimum ratio on account, as kenw suggests, of Nunthorpe bank (1/44?).

Around 1976-77, the last Middlesbrough-Whitby was the power twin off the 1608 ex-Whitby. Pretty well used, at least as far as Nunthorpe.

And whilst I was waiting at the Boro for the last Whitby, there was a Saltburn train with a van attached which was loaded at Middlesbrough – I think it was a four-wheeled van so PMV or CCT.

 

Regards

 

Stuart

Were 3-cars or power-twins required on Whitby for Nunthorpe bank?

Again, a little before your dates but there is some information about shunting

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=770

 

HTH

 

Stuart

Looking at the roof profile I'd say it was a short parcels van.

Might well be a Thompson BZ - there are some videos on the market showing Malton-Whitby DMUs hauling such vans as tail traffic.

 

Stu

Almost there, Chard, but a regular, weekly, working!

 

In the 1968/69 marshalling book, the 2245 SO Edinburgh-Carlisle conveyed 2 empty TPOs (POS) to Carlisle.

 

Frustratingly, although the book contains the 0400 Hawick papers formation, the 0350 Carlisle - Edinburgh isn't mentioned. I presume this is because it was a Class 3 parcels rather than Class 1 despite carrying mails to Hawick.

 

Stuart

Robertcwp has just posted a scanned image of the Scottish Region 1968-69 Passenger Train Marshalling circular on his BRCoachingstock Yahoo site.

It contains details of almost all the weekday hauled stock trains over the Waverley Route (not, frustratingly, the 0350 ex Carlisle) during that last year - sadly, of course, they are annotated in hand "Service withdrawn w.e.f. 6/1/69".

No train formations are shown for Sundays apart from the sleeper - were they DMUs by then?

Stuart

 

Thats my proposed set for my early 50s interpretation of the Saltburn-Whitby line. Just need to grab hold of an L1 to run them beind...

 

In Summer1954, the booked Middlesbrough-Whitby-Scarborough sets were BT-CL-T-BT

 

Whitby-Malton BT-CL-BT as were the Border Counties sets (Newcastle - Riccarton/Hawick)

 

Now as to which services used Gresley non-corridors as opposed to earlier NER/NBR or later Thompsons.......

 

Stuart (must ask lankyphil to wander down to Hattons................)

Well, my hot off the press copy of Last Years of the Waverley Route by David Cross arrived yesterday, nice birthday pressie, a few photos we've seen before but a whole load of new ones (to me at least)including a blue class 37 on the 0658 Hawick-Edinburgh.

 

Stuart

Ken Hoole's NE Locomotive Sheds shows 7 B16s at Tweedmouth in 1923, 4 in 1933, none in 1939, 1 in 1947 and none in 1954.

Another analysis of Tweedmouth's allocation 1955 to 1958 on the BR group is equally bare of B16s.......

 

Stu

 

B16s allocated to Tweedmouth - are you sure? If you do have any numbers/dates I'd be really interested to know (I don't have the RCTS Green Book or Yeadon for the B16s). I always thought that they spent their time south of Newcastle.

why the photographer was really here:

http://oversands.fot.../p49153545.html look at the non-corridor coach in freight use ALERT!!!!

 

Might this be the return working of the coach which turned 4S43 0630 Carlisle New Yard - Millerhill into a Class 2 passenger train between Riccarton and Hawick?

Described to me as the school train.....

 

Stuart

Talking about Waverley route exotica, (well, I think somebody said exotica), what about the Mixed train?

Scanning through some recently acquired WTTs, I found a reference to a Mixed train which I have never seen mentioned or photographed.

In the 1961/62 book, there is an unadvertised Class 2 train 8.0am SX Newcastleton to Hawick, stopping everywhere including Whitrope Siding.

By Summer 1963, that train is not in the WTT but the 6.50am Class 4 freight Carlisle to Niddrie West is shown as an unadvertised Class 2 Mixed Train from Riccarton at 7.53am to Hawick arriving 8.19.

In the 1965-66 (passenger)and winter 1965-66 (Freight) it's 4S43 6.30am Carlisle - Craiginches which is shown as running as "Mixed Train Class 2 Riccarton to Hawick" departing Riccarton 7.53am, arriving Hawick 8.19am (and taking water until 8.40am).

Was this to take schoolchildren in to Hawick?

Anybody any idea what stock was used?

How was it returned to Carlisle?

 

There's no mention in the 1967-68 book so obviously finished by then

 

Stuart