Jabee

Thanks for all the advice so far.....very useful indeed.

So assuming I ditch the switch feedback in favour of occupancy feedback via the built in SPDT switch....can I simply splice into the track feed for the point to provide input to the SPDT to power the frog?

I've had a go at drawing a diagram of the wiring including occupancy detection....does this look right?

7 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

One thing is a quirk of the DCC Cobalt Motors.

 

if you are using a a separate bus to power the motors as I describe above then you can’t use the Frog output on the motors for the frog on the turnouts. You need to take the track feeds from the turnout to the SPDT switch that they have built in and take the frog output from the common of the SPDT switch.

 

if you didn’t do this then the Cobalt will bridge the track and accessory busses 😒

So, just to check my understanding, I still need the two connections to the 'DCC in'  terminals on the point motor, these connections being from the accessory bus, but to isolate the motors onto a separate bus, I have to run separate track power feeds to the SPDT switch, from the main power bus,  powering the frog from the common terminal....is that correct?

In which case, regardless of whether I 'need' to feedback the position of the point to ITrain, could I stick with a single main bus, properly protected, powering the track and the motors while accepting the whole district will shut down in the event of a short, therefore requiring me to manually correct (moving a train by hand if running against a point)?

6 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

what are you feeding back to?

In due course, through Loconet to Itrain using YaMoRc YD6016LN ground sensor.

4 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

One thing is a quirk of the DCC Cobalt Motors.

 

if you are using a a separate bus to power the motors as I describe above then you can use the Frog output on the motors for the frog on the turnouts. You need to take the track feeds from the turnout to the SPDT switch that they have built in and take the frog output from the common of the SPDT switch.

 

if you didn’t do this then the Cobalt will bridge the track and accessory busses 😒

Oh.....I am using the SPDT switch for the feedbacks.

I have tried to be as neat and logical as possible and everything works. The only thing I have not done yet is wired in a separate bus for the point motors (blue and brown wires). Red, green and white wires from separate switch on point motors are for feedback. Red and black wires labelled in yellow are the power feeds for the points.  Red wires to drop down panel on right with white labels are to facilitate block detection. Main bus wire is 16awg (1.5mm), droppers and power feeds to points are 16/02 wire and feedback is 7/02 wire. It all works, is all labelled and will all be accessible from below once the board is in place but it all looks terribly busy.....am I missing a trick here?

Thanks all.  Iain's point noted about the MTB motor which I will have a look at but I took the opportunity last year to purchase 3 x 12 packs of IP Digital motors when they were in short supply!

I am using a Digitrax system and will consider the booster option.

Good morning and happy new year.  During the Christmas break, I finally started construction of a layout in my converted loft.

Layout will be approx 4.5m x 4m, with 12 lane fiddle yard down one side and four running lines in the scenic section.

There will be approx 40 point motors (DCC Concepts digital IP), including eleven in each of the fans to each end of the fiddle yard. I've built and laid/wired the track on the  first board, this being the left hand fan to the fiddle yard. Wiring, although logical and all tested ok is quite 'busy, as every piece of track, including the points has dropper wires connected to the main power bus. I also have feedbacks wired from each point motor, making things look even more busy. My question is, whether there is any advantage and therefore would I be well advised to power/ control the digital point motors from a separate dedicated bus, rather than drive them from the main power bus?

Brilliant.....thank you. Off back to Anyrail.  Realistically to will be the weekend after this before I get any real time upstairs.  Will keep you posted.

Thank you again!

1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Except that the objections to three tracks are mainly that its not very prototypical. But then, how is the rest of the layout going to be?

Whilst I'm not hung up on being prototypical, I would like a reasonable element of 'realism'. At some point, once the track layout is confirmed, I will need to think about how to signal the layout. So, please excuse my inexperience, but my question about the pointwork approaching the station still stands. I do realise that I am asking for a lot of help/guidance here and I'm sure will ask for more in the future, but do so in the hope that as my knowledge and experience expands I can pass this on in the future to those in a similar position to myself!

As of now, no track has been laid. Open frames are in place and the boards for the fiddle yard have been constructed.  Bracing to these boards will be installed once the track is laid (to avoid fouling point motors etc) before they are installed.

Thanks for replies so far....it seems that three tracks would not be the answer.  So my question now is, if I reverted to four tracks, how would you designate the lines (slow/fast, and north/south) and then how would you design the pointwork approach to the station from the South?

I should maybe point out that the loft was not converted just for a model railway - this is a 'hobby room' .  I also build scale models to a high standard of detail - mostly ships from sail era through to WW2 - just winding up to build a large scale (1/100) model of HMS Victory.  Also, being a keen sea angler, I build fishing rods for myself and friends...hence all this, the large open space in the centre to pull out a large fold down modelling table and cabinets for tools, paints, glues, resins etc!!!

For anyone interested, latest work in progress below.

Part 2 - myself

I'm a proficient scale modeller but I've never constructed a 'layout' before.  I am not a 'rivet counter' type and not necessarily motivated by prototypical running.  The real interest for me is in the modelling and the engineering. I have a large collection of locomotives rolling stock, some of which I've had for many years and I am in the process of re-working much of the older stuff - replacing wheels and bogies, changing couplings, repainting and replacing decals etc.

I also have young grandchildren and they like coming up in the room with me so keen to get some trains running sometime soon.

Part 3 - the layout

It will be constructed using Peco code 100 in the fiddle yard and Peco code 75 in the scenic area. Full DCC operation is the intention and may even get into computer control.  I have disposed of any locomotives I had that would not easily convert to DCC (or were not worth converting).  All remaining locomotives are DCC ready/converted and all have wheels compatible with code75 track - not a traction tyre or lightweight plastic chassis in sight.......but somehow I've still got 50+ locomotives and who knows what quantity of rolling stock!

It's taken me some time to get to grips with the fiddle yard so not much though yet on the scenic area.  I've settled for now on three tracks - up and down fast traffic and a bi-directional freight/slow line.  I know that is not usual but 4 lines feels a little too busy and I would like something more interesting than two lines.  Era is diesel/electric, anywhere from 60s up to more recently - again, I won't get hung up a over having a Deltic running a fast passenger train while a class 66 hauls a fuel train at the same time!

I will probably include a TMD or similar but this is more for the opportunity of modelling one rather than operating one - I don't see myself doing a great deal of prototypical operation (shunting etc)....more like fixed rakes relaying around the room while I work on models/scenery etc.  Hopefully it will also keep the grandchildren entertained. Any more questions, that will help give proper advice, then please ask.  I have included a larger scale picture of the west fiddle yard/station approach for additional clarity.

Thank you again, in advance

Thank you for replies so far - following from questions from some of you, I thought it might be useful to give the full picture. Bear with me as I will cover this in two posts

Part one - location/construction.

Firstly, location.  I have a converted loft space in a detached hipped roof house, insulated, boarded and plastered with structural steels in the floor and against roof cords to allow removal of some of the internal trussing (all building controlled, inspected and approved before anyone asks). Open space is per diagram but dimensions are approx 5m (N to S) x 4.1m (E to W) + storage spaces under the eaves. A larger space under the eaves is accessed from the North side from where I can get to bathroom extractors etc.  The fiddle yard is in the North end of the room with the Scenic break determined by some remaining trussing to support a front offshoot to the roof (it would have increased the cost of the conversion considerably to have this removed) Base boards are open frame construction (dimensions per diagram) with cabinets and a large fold down modelling table below, all on castors. The fiddle yard will be laid on braced ply boards mounted approx. 70mm above the datum which is the top of the open framing in the 'scenic' area, to facilitate some height variation between track and scenery.

I have opted for three running tracks - I know that is not 'usual' but I'll cover that in the next post.  I have not yet 'finalised' a track plan for the scenic area but have connected the circuits just for now.  My intention is to have a station area at the west entrance to the fiddle yard - this will not be full length platforms....there will be a structure over the platforms (station building?) at the scenic break suggesting the remaining platforms are 'off scene.  The ability to move from any of the three tracks into any of the storage lines will be 'disguised' as the pointwork south of the station.

I use Kreg pocket hole screws regularly.....all the base and wall cabinet carcasses in my garage are constructed from ply with pocket hole joints as well as in custom wardrobes and cabinet carcasses in bedrooms and home office. Although very quick, accurate (so long as you clamp pieces correctly before fixing together) and strong, you do need to be careful about screws breaking through on thinner panels. To connect material 15mm thick, I would set the jig up for 16mm and use screws for 16mm material. I would then set the depth stop on the drill bit a couple of mm shorter, thereby making the pocket hole slightly shallow. Test on a couple of off-cuts, adjust as required and then keep the same settings for the remaining joints. If you find that your pieces 'creep' out of alignment when driving the screws in, I have in the past used cyanoacrylate glue and activator (sold in DIY shops as ' mitre bond') to fix panels together before driving in the screws. Don't use 12mm screws as there will not be sufficient screw thread in the panel being joined. Nor should you set the depth on the drill bit a couple of mm deeper as there will then not be enough 'meat' at the bottom of the pocket hole and the joint will be considerably weakened. Hope that helps.

Hi

I'm still 'learning my trade' as it were.....I've now worked out my fiddle yard arrangement with the curved entries/ turnouts with no less than R3 but now struggling with the tracks running into the yard at each end. 

Fiddle yard runs along one side of the room, approx 4 m long and is split into 12 tracks, arranged as 4 sets of 3 with a combination of streamline curved and medium radius turnouts in each fan.

I would be grateful for ideas for the most efficient turnout/slip design to allow any of the four scenic tracks having access to any of the four 'fans' at each end of the fiddle yard.

Thanks, in advance, once again.

John.

Thank you for the replies so far. I'm now concerned about lengths of wires running to the YD6016LN-CS. If the unit has the capacity to connect to 16 detection blocks, then inevitably, there will be some long cable runs from the YD6016 to track feeds....is this a problem, or am I missing something?

Thanks - I'm using 16/02 for all track connections and 32/02 for DCC Bus

One more question - can I take two or more droppers from the isolated side of the track in each individual block, bring them together into a connector with one wire then going to the YD6016?

But if the isolated side of the track has more than one dropper in a block (they all will all as the blocks will have more than one section of track, each of which has it's own feed and return), do all the droppers for a block have to be routed through the feedback module, or can one only be routed through the feedback module with the remainder connected directly to the DCC bus?

Digitrax Evolution Express command station with YaMoRC YD6016LN-CS current sensing feedback module.

I am constructing a small test layout to get to grips with Itrain.  My understanding is that, with Itrain, only one feedback is required per block.  So my question is that if a block has two or more pairs of dropper wires (assuming each section of track is fitted with dropper wires), how are these arranged?....is it necessary to pass one of the returns through the block detection module and the remainder direct to the DCC bus?

To answer some questions.

I'll be modelling 70s/80s diesels.  I have a couple of steam locos that I may dispose of in due course, unless I decide to have a 'preserved' loco occasionally doing a run. Longest train will likely be an HST (2 power cars + 7 coaches).

I don't see myself doing lots of shunting etc....the real interest for me is building and detailing the scenic areas and watching trains go round!

How does this look now?

RFS - good pic.  Same colour walls as my loft 😀

I've had another go on Anyrail, adjusting plan to 2 tracks in and out and adding a couple of curved head shunts at each end where I may be able to store a loco or two.  I think I'm now more comfortable with 2 running lines but we'll see how I go.  I won't know until I start setting track out, but I think there are some areas where the radius falls to R2, but only for small sections at the start and end of the inner curves.  This may not be a problem as bogie wagons and locos should be able to deal with this, but won't know until I build and test it.

Any comments/observations?

I have an alternative plan for two lines in and out, which I might revert to. I've had a look at Abington Parkway....looks good but I'm trying to avoid using the small radius curved points.