DevilsAdvocate

Hi all,

I wish to share this thread with you, if nothing else, to see if anyone else has had issues anywhere like the ones I’ve set out below, or whether I’ve seen a black cat or put a pair of new shoes on the table, or walked under a ladder or something !

I decided a few weeks ago, to collect ‘ The Great Gathering ‘ A4’s from Hornby. The die cast ones I hasten to add, that are still retailing at £320 ! 

I have been lucky enough through selling stock i don’t run anymore to be able to afford to buy 5 of them in a short period of time, to be faced by the following as i write this :-

R30264 - 4464 - BITTERN,  £320 shop purchase, works fine

R30265 - 60008 - DWIGHT D EISENHOWER,  £320  brand new shop  purchase made on line -  Yesterday - makes a grinding noise & won’t move. Got to be sent back

R30261 - 4468 - MALLARD £320 shop purchase works fine

R30266 - 60007 - SIR NIGEL GRESLEY.  £395 Private buyer brand new purchase - It judders - Back at Hornby for repair

R30262 - 4489 - DOMINION of CANADA £320 shop purchase -  something catching on the driving wheels or cogs  inside - sounds horrible - Shop has sent back to Hornby

So, £1,035 worth of brand new loco’s needing repair !

Hang on folks, not finished yet

Previous non A4 purchases made in the last 12 months

R30231 -  70 - QUEEN ELIZABETH JUBILEE -  £550 on line private buyer purchase - Brand new -  had to be sent back to Hornby, Burning DCC chips out -  reason for this, they’d wired the motor up incorrectly !

R3973 60007 SIR NIGEL GRESLEY   £300 ( in green this one ). On line brand new purchase. Worked fine for a fair while - Now also back at Hornby as it’s just died on me

Another £850 worth

I find this unbelievable. These locomotives are not exactly cheap and i am incensed by this. 

I have since learned, that none of the loco’s above were tested by the shops / private buyers before selling. 

Why don’t they do this ? They just assume they’ll just work perfectly straight out of the box - which they should do of course, but invariably don’t !

So who is to blame ?

I blame myself, for ordering such expensive loco’s with knowledge that they won’t have been tested before selling on, however why should they be at the end of the day ?

The items SHOULD work, they’re brand new !

 Hornby have got to take a good look at themselves with issues like this. This is just not good enough

To get things into perspective :-

These locomotives were / are a great idea by Hornby to reproduce. A great collection to have, a fantastic collection to own. 

All 6 loco’s are just awesome to observe, the detailing is magnificent.

I’m even willing to pay the extortionate £320 for each, but if this is typical of the failure rate of their models, Hornby need to ask themselves some serious questions

They are reproducing these again in “ The Great Goodbye “ collection.

I’m assuming this is because you can say goodbye to them when purchased as they head back to Margate for repair !!

I am now back to having 4 of this collection

I really am unsure whether to continue with the two i need now, or sell on the 4 i have when the two come back from Hornby 

I have NEVER had issues anywhere near this scale with any of the Heljan, Accurascale, or Bachmann locomotives i have ( 32 and counting )

If i do decide to complete this set, those two i still need will be the last Hornby locomotives I’ll ever buy - Never again !

I am aware, that a lot of your good selves will be running hundreds of Hornby loco’s with no issues, but for me they’ve been a nightmare

As usual, your thought are invaluable

Thanks for reading

John

Thank you both, I will try each of your suggestions and see what that brings

I must admit, my lack of knowledge with regard to wiring up Electrofrog points when I built this present layout has come to haunt me, if I ever built another layout I would ditch Insulfrog, they carry too many issues

I had a Bachmann Class 08 shunter, and that was so hopeless crawling through the points I got rid of it

Now I’ve got a fantastic  ( & expensive ) Hornby model doing the same ! 🙈

Hi Iain,

I thought initially, it was sticking on the plastic guide on the points, until you gave it enough speed momentum takes it through, but it can’t be sticking on every point in this way surely.

It could be electrically poor contact I suppose, but as stated all other engines run through all point ok

Hi All,

Apologies if this has been covered previously, I could only find a thread from 2013, a bit old hat now with all the newer stock available

I have a Hornby Dublo Flying Scotsman, a lovely loco, £320 worth

I also have Peco code 100 Insulfrog points

On realistic slower speeds, the loco stops dead as the driving wheels traverse over them, when running at a faster speed, there’s no issue

I’m stuck with the points, I know Electrofrog options are better, but being useless at the electronics part of the hobby, can anyone advise as to what the issue is and how to fix it ?

I have half a dozen other steam loco’s that run smoothly over all points, so is it the loco ?

Again, how can this be remedied ?

Cheers all

Apologies for the first picture..A bit blurry

DRS overkill I know, and yes I have got too many loco’s for the layout size , but you get carried away a bit at times don’t you ?

Agreed, the slope of the roof is sharp and it’s plaster-boarded, so won’t accept any fixings that need to hold much weight, so putting a length of board above the layout is a non starter.

35 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I think it looks great, and if I’d made something similar I’d be reluctant to scrap it, even if it no longer suited what I wanted. I realise that probably isn’t a particularly helpful comment though

This is fair comment, and thank you for the compliment 

I agree, the more I look at it and do bits here and there, it’s going to be very difficult to take it all down

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

mynonly constructive suggestion is that you flip a coin, and if it comes up heads you go 0 gauge. If that happens, go out for the day, and have a mate come in and box up and disappear all recoverable things including stock, and trash the layout, so that you come home to a freshly empty space. It’s a bit like neighbours swapping pigs before slaughtering them and turning them into sausages: you don’t want to kill

Good idea,but I’ve got no mates !!  Only joking.

1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said:

It looks pretty built-in and difficult to sell as a working layout.  In retrospect it is a good idea to build layouts in modules, also makes wiring and house moving easier!

True Jeff. It’s permanent ok. It was meant to be. Perhaps though next time if there is a next time your modular suggestion would be worth considering 

Cheers

John

Just thought I would put 3 pictures on the thread of the layout I have and considering ditching for 0 gauge

So, am I bonkers…….Or not

Cheers

John

2 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

 

As John is quoting a minimum of £450 per loco, I don't think he's going for small locos and 4-wheel wagons. 

 

Regardless of scale, this is the general policy of most modellers regarding buying trains....

Nice one, how true

The quote of £450 has come from a visit to rails of Sheffield last Saturday 

Class 26 / 27’s they had for that price, the Class 60’s were more. Touching £500

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

Except if you move to O gauge that will become your new normal.  Sure, you can sell all of your 00 stock and replace 20+ locomotives with four or five in O Gauge.  However, what you previously considered to be a one off will be what all subsequent O Gauge locomotives that you wish to purchase will cost you.  Perhaps the principal advantage of O Gauge is that you'll have less stock and perhaps a reduced likelihood of overstocking the layout if you feel you can't afford another locomotive (ie it will curtail you past desire to splash out on £150 locomotives - you'll have to think three times as hard before buying yet another locomotive that you just like the look of).

Exactly, which was the point I was making earlier with regard to the confusion with costing

Most of the chat has been with regard to loco’s for 0 scale

How much are we talking for track, points, decoders, sound decoders etc

Cheers

2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

Sorry but I'm sensing some contradiction here. One of your concerns about O Scale is the cost of locos in particular, but you've posted about paying about £1000 for 3 OO steam locos, and you have a fleet of umpty-nine (sorry I forget the exact number) identical-bar-the-numbers OO Class 20s..... you're clearly not that averse to spending your hard-earned on locos. Is the perceived issue rather that for the same money you would get less locos in O, maybe? 

I just find the 'too expensive' argument a bit confusing given what you've already posted.

To explain what is seen as a contradiction, the Class 20 fleet ( and the other loco’s I have ) retailed at approximately £130, and were purchased over a 2 year period. Some cost less, some a little more.

As for the steam loco’s, yes, the West Country Queen Elizabeth was £500, more than the amount for an 0 gauge loco.

However, that is more than I’ve ever paid in my life for any loco, and was very much a one off 

The other 2 steam loco’s were purchased with monetary  gifts from my family for Xmas / birthdays and I paid any shortfall.

So spread over a two year period this is how my collection evolved.

To go into the costing of 0 gauge loco’s then.

Every loco purchased will cost a minimum of £450. They on average are the cheapest I’ve seen, so that will become the norm, not to mention track, pointwork etc ……..

All the 00 loco’s I have I paid no more than £150 for, so there’s the reasoning, not a contradiction.

6 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Have you thought about building a very small diorama or micro layout, or even just a wagon kit, in 0 first to see how you get on and if you like it? Hopefully not too expensive and wouldn’t take up too much space, but would allow you to try things out and get a feel for the new scale before you commit to too much.

This is a good idea, one I hadn’t considered, however my only space available is what I already have so may prove difficult. It’s certainly worth considering though, Thanks

Cheers

John

10 hours ago, Kaput said:

Late last year I sold all my N gauge collection to focus on OO.

 

I've pretty much regretted it ever since and its mainly because lots of the stuff just isn't obtainable anymore without getting lucky on eBay.

 

So my advice is think very very carefully about the selling up your current collection part of changing scale.

Invaluable advice, and that does worry me about stepping up

The other scenario that i would have, is that the revenue obtained from the sale of present stock would need to fund the new project.

There aren't many of us that can just waltz into a model shop and fork out £450 minimum for one loco unless you're Rod Stewart or Pete Waterman of course.

Moving over a tangent slightly ( but still keeping on the changing around of things )  i want to quote my brother in law when he said to me once regarding my present layout :-

'' Yes it's really good, but what happens when you get fed up of looking at the same thing every day ? ''

Before you all boil over at this comment, he's a keen angler, and i asked him the point of getting up at 4am, sitting by a pond for hours on end in all weathers, to chuck a fish back into the water you've sat for hours to drag out ?  He agreed when you put it that way ............................

Have any of you changed things around because you were fed up of seeing the same thing every day ?

Also,it is stated regularly, that a layout is never completed. Or is it ?

If you have in particular a small ( ish ) layout, you can't go on year in year out building it. There will come a time when you can't go much, if any furthur.

I do know modellers in fact, that work on layouts until in their opinion they can't do much more to it, and they then clear the decks and start again.

Their justification for this is that the actual building up of the layout is what they enjoy most about the hobby, not the running round of the trains

Fair enough.... That's what floats their boat, who am i to question their desires ?

The reason for this slight move over from the original question, is that there are two more reasons why someone may want complete change

For me personally though the ever wise Johnster is correct yet again when he rightly states you need to treasure what you've created and enjoy it.

Also especially the price of these things nowadays, enjoy the loco's you add to it, get great pleasure out of them and not be looking for the next fix, the get rid of a loco to fund another.

I've still got that urge to change though  : )

Guilty as charged on all counts !

Cheers again

John

2 hours ago, DCB said:

If you do change scale then expect to make a severe loss on the value of your collection. 

Yep, agreed this is also a major factor to consider.

I have estimated I have somewhere in the region of  4 to £5000  worth of stock due to the rarity of some, sound fitted in most, and being made bespoke like the Class 20’s I’ve changed the numbers on.

I paid over £1000 for the Hornby West Country purple Queen Elizabeth II,  Flying Scotsman, & Sir Nigel Gresley alone.

If scales are changed, none of the 27 loco’s I have will have any use, unless they are kept for collection .

The loss on these will be enough to reduce you to tears, but this is the price to be paid if a change is undertaken 

Shop owners will give the minimum they can get away with, that’s obvious. They have got to sell them on, and still make it worth their while, so you can’t blame them

E Bay is the kiddie for selling, but a 12% selling fee plus their charges on top hits hard

I would estimate that I wouldn’t get £3000 for the lot, perhaps more if the 3 steam loco’s were included.

I have been up to the layout this afternoon, and asked my good lady wife what her opinion was regarding this dilemma I’ve created for myself

She was stunned and said I must be crazy to get rid of it all. 
 

Are women ever wrong ??

Thats a massive thread on it’s own, don’t answer that question, but she can’t believe I’ve even contemplated it

She attends many swap meets, exhibitions with me, her speciality is the small detail bits for scenery, so she’s well aware of how much money has been spent, and although the decision will be mine of course, she can’t believe I’m even contemplating it.

I know she is right, but I still have the desire to up the grade.

The Johnsters lengthy reply on page 1 sticks in my mind

This is the price you pay for not thinking through thoroughly what you want, and not planning correctly 

Also, not being satisfied with what you’ve got

He’s bang on and gets great satisfaction with his own layout 

This is how it should be and good luck to you mate

The thread has turned out to be extremely useful, thank you to you all and please keep the replies coming, they’re all welcome and it’s fascinating reading 

Cheers all

Cheers guys

To be clear, the layout size I have is 12ft x 8ft with little ( or big ) old me operating inside of that. The 3 ft is the width of the baseboard 

Cheers

1 hour ago, Sitham Yard said:

 @DevilsAdvocateAre you able to visit Guildex at Bingley Hall, Stafford Showground, 2nd and 3rd September? Not only will you see what is available in O Gauge but there will be a small layout being built live during the show.

Andrew

Hi Andy

Yes, thanks for that, worth a visit certainly

Hi all,

Thank you all for your advice & opinions, it's made for great reading & was exactly what i was looking for.

To this end, in order to answer some of your queries, and to give a full picture of exactly what i have, & would like to have etc, i thought i would fullfil the picture somewhat.

What i already have :-

I have a 12 x 8 x 3ft wide layout

I didn't design it  The Engine Shed guys at Arundel did.

Imagination / design isn't something i have in abundance so i gave them what i'd got and what i wanted and asked them to design it which they duly did

Brilliant. I loved it, and built it !

It is 100% DRS, modelled between approx' 1995 & 2005.

Why DRS ?  I've in the main always had DRS layouts, because  they used ' heritage' traction. 20's, 37's, 47's etc, let's call it a variation. That was the appeal for me.

Because Bachmann took a world record time period to release the now widely available Class 20/3, i compromised ( i had to ), by cutting & carving existing Class 20's & repainting etc.

When the 20/3's did arrive, i was bowled over with them. I thought, and still think, they are fantastic, and before i knew it i had 8 of them, & decided to  have the full entitlement of 15. These were renumbered to suit, and because Bachmann decalled the old DRS logo onto the wrong bonnet on one side, i had to have those replaced eventually by Bachmann. Now, all 15 are in their correct guise for that period.

Overkill ?  Most certainly. Call it a weakness  ! But i don't regret buying them all, and would never sell them whatever decision i come to.

Altogether, i have 27 RTR DRS loco's for that period.

What i would like now, or not, or maybe ?

First of all here, i need to quote Clint Eastwood's phrase when pointing a Magnum ( not the ice cream ) at Scorpio in Dirty Harry :-

'A man's got to know his limitations '

A brilliant phrase that, and a true one in all walks of life

We are all good at something, and all average at something, and all useless at something

In a model railway perspective, i'd say i'm pretty good at most stuff, but useless at other tasks

I am useless with the electronic side of the hobby. I chose not to use electrofrog points, & went for the Insulfrog type, as i had no idea how to wire them.

Therefore, i didn't put point motors under them for the same reason.

I cannot solder for toffee, i have had to do it obviously, but it's not the greatest. I have had a Gaugemaster Prodigy for years. I like it, it's served me well, and it's easy to use, however it took me ages to figure out how to programme loco's to double head, so i hope you get an idea of my skills in this area at least. 

All this has done me fine to a degree, but if a new project was started irrespective of scale, i would use what i should have used in the first place

An example of this, I recently bought the Hornby Dublo Flying Scotsman, it's a fantastic loco. 

Just as a charter that could be seen on the layout perhaps, or perhaps just because i couldn't resist it

Anyhow, it hates four of my points ( Peco 100 ), and dies when trying to pass over them

When you've paid £320 for a loco, and it won't pass over the points, it pi***s you off a bit. This will be the points, not the loco. If it was the loco, it wouldn't pass over any of them. That's my theory anyway.

I have a couple of sound fitted loco's where the sound dies going over certain points, again very frustrating !

I was watching a video made by Tony Wright of BRM fame the other evening.

I've met him, he came and photographed a layout of mine years ago. He's a lovely man, and he invited me to see his Little Bytham layout which i duly went to see.

His knowledge is mind boggling, and in the video he was speaking about how  he created the layout, and said that in some areas he was happy with a bit of modellers licence, meaning everything just can't be 100% accurate, but one thing he would not tolerate was poor running

I agree totally, if the layout doesn't run smoothly, then what's the point ?

Johnster, you touched on this. Time taken to plan and then build is paramount, and decide exactly what you want.

I'm guilty of not doing this in my time, but i know i'm not the only one by a long chalk

So what's with the 0 gauge thing ?

I have always looked at 0 gauge, the bigger the better i think. ( That's my opinion,i know it won't be some of yours )

The major factor for not going for it was the cost. I have never been in a financial position until now to be able to afford it

How much ??  I simply couldn't afford them

Also the room. If you want a tailchaser in 0 gauge, you need room, and plenty of it, obviously.

Over the last few years i have been fortunate enough to just about be able walk in to Rails of Sheffield and to purchase one, or two, or three, you know how it goes, still £450, but as i said in my first description, some of the 00 models are creeping up to unbelievable prices, once again fuelling my appetite to ramp up a scale.

I am 63, and retiring next year

I need a project, and this is something else fuelling a change

The next layout will be my last. Hopefully, i won't be pushing up the daises for a long while yet, but crawling under baseboards etc and climbing loft ladders just may become an issue, plus the fact that i think this is my 5th layout now so the 6th will be the final one ( i think )

The next one should there be one, will be done in a meticulous fashion, correctly wired, with no loco hesitancy or sound loss going through points, plus other areas i would improve with a clean baseboard in front of me

In conclusion then i hope i've put the picture across and i've tried to answer the questions asked by many

I am aware of some of the comments that will now appear, and i am open to be shot at

I know that some of you will think i'm bonkers for wanting change, and i know know that some will understand where i'm coming from, but either way i put this thread up to get a general consensus of opinion from modellers with a hell of a lot more experience than i have, and to share your experiences and scale changes etc

All, have been and will be greatly appreciated

Cheers again

John

Great points Dave, all of which are spot on. I do have more locomotives than I can operate, and your points make perfect sense, Thanks

John

Hi Nearholmer,

Thanks for the reply.

I do have a circuit on the baseboards stated, together with 27 loco’s.

Your point is a good one with regard to losing money by selling them. I feel I would need to do this too, in order to fund the larger scale.

Really, I should be content with the layout I already have, but I am yearning another project, and I am always drawn to the larger scale when I’m contemplating this.

As all of us know, it takes a lot of time, money and effort to build a layout, and to just rip it up, sell the loco’s and start again needs the correct motivation and most of all the correct decision especially when changing scale as everything you’re looking at cannot be re used.

Cheers

John

Hi all,

This is a question I would like to put to the forum, with regard to changing scales.

What I have, is a 12ft x 8ft x 3ft wide oval.

It is 00 scale.

I have modelled 00 gauge for the last 30 years, but I fancy a change. I have always fancied going up to 0 scale, but have been put off by the cost of doing so, especially of course by the cost of the locomotives.

I was also put off, by the lack of choices in the scale. By that I mean that nearly everything was in rail blue, so if your didn’t want the rail blue livery, you were stuffed really.

Now I notice that there is far more choice, the GbRf 50’s, the Class 60’s etc are now available for a better choice.

However, fancying this change again now, I want to know your opinions 

If anyone has done this scale change, is it something that you’re glad you’ve done, or something you have regretted. ?

I don’t expect to have a continuous layout in the larger scale, a length of 12ft with a depot scene would suffice.

Do any of you that went up the scale regret it and gone back to 00 ? Or even N gauge ?

Did the cost of the scale become unsustainable ?

I was in Rails of Sheffield last weekend, and there was plenty of loco’s starting at £450

With the latest 00 Bachmann 47’s fetching around £300, and the new Accurascale examples not far behind, that asking price for an 0 gauge example doesn’t seem so breathtaking I suppose.

What I don’t want, is to completely change scale to wish I hadn’t.

Your advice in this will be priceless in a decision I need to make.

Cheers all

John

Hi all

Just to inform you all, that Digitrains have repaired this loco

The motor and one of the pick up wires were wired back to front

I’m really pleased that they have been able to fix it, however, extremely annoyed that Hornby refused to accept that it was their previous loco at fault, when it actually was

Shame on your after sales service Hornby !!

I hope if nothing else, that anyone with similar issues have found this thread useful 

Thanks

John

Hi guys

Sorry for the late replies to you all but I’m away at the moment aboard an ocean liner so the internet is sparse to say the least !

I think sporadic is the word !

Anyway, with my very limited knowledge I would agree with your vast knowledge it seems that this is indeed a wiring issue. It needs someone who knows what they’re looking at to disipher just what that issue is

Hornby aren’t interested because they blame everyone and every thing bar their precious loco. 
 

When I return this weekend I will try to source assistance with this. Ray has kindly offered his services 

Hornby have sent me a link today to pre order their up and coming prototype Deltic. This is also to be a 21 pin socket, so they can shove it. Sorry, but I approached them for assistance and they treated me like an idiot so they can do one !!

08 221. Yes I know both those retailers but I would be surprised if they did repairs but you never know. Thanks for that

Cheers all

Hi Kaput

Tried the Hornby 8 pin in a 21 pin adapter and it fried it

Ive burnt 3 decoders in it now, but not trying any more, 1 Hornby 8 pin via the adapter & 2 Bachmann 36-557’s

Thankfully, all 3 were spares so I had no recent outlay for them, although I did originally of course 

Your point regarding the excessive solder is one that keeps coming up and is  a good one thanks. 

I must admit I’ve never heard of that before, you learn something new every day !

Thanks

Hi Pete

Thanks for that. Yes, you have a good point there..The Bachmann decoders I used were spares I had, si I’ve had them a while. I don’t think they make them now, they have switched to Plux 22, although until now, they have suited me fine.

certainly in the future I’ll be buying the more expensive ones as you get what you pay for at the end of the day..

For this particular loco I think I’ll have to go down the hard wiring route as Ray has suggested as there is something clearly wrong with the DCC. Side of it

Cheers boys

4 hours ago, SRman said:

 

It could also be an ESU decoder. Bachmann confusingly changed the spec and supplier but used the same 36-557 catalogue number. The ESU also has a 1 amp rating and should be OK. Easy indicators: green is Soundtraxx, blue is ESU.

DevilsAdvocate, I would remove the decoder (if you haven't already), and check the bases of the pins to see if there are any whiskers of solder bridging the gaps where the pins meet the PCB. If you can, use a sharp knife to cut between each pin at the base to make sure of this. I had a few anomalies once with a Bachmann class 150 with just such a problem. Using the knife solved it completely.

4 hours ago, Ray H said:

you

4 hours ago, Ray H said:

If nobody more local to you offers to help - give them a day or two to catch up - you can PM me and I'll do it for you if you're happy to post it.

Nice one Ray. I just may take you up on that. I’m away from home for a week so I will contact you on my return

The decoder starts smoking heavily when power is applied. When the decoder is removed and put into another loco, it’s dead. 
Thanks Ray

A lot of good stuff there. Hard wiring is a good option, never thought of that, however that’s beyond my knowledge unfortunately so I’d need someone to do that for me but it’s a good option 

I live in Derby, and there aren’t sufficient model railway outlets around here nowadays, however I would willingly send it somewhere to someone who knows how to do such things

Great feedback from you all though, I’m grateful for it all. 

Cheers folks

I’m torn between leaving it as it is, after all, I bought this as an investment as it will only increase in value, and I have no intention of selling it, however that said I have a DCC layout so it can’t run on it, and I would like it too obviously.

Does anyone know of an outlet / modeller etc that would take a look at it for me ?

I’m sure this isn’t a massive issue, it’s more a case of someone knowing what they’re looking at (  which isn’t me I can assure you )

it’s pointless keep purchasing different decoders at £30+ a time for them to just keep burning out.

Cheers again all

Hi John P

Yep, but that’s what they said, and they wouldn’t budge from it

Thing is, how can I get them to repair it when they won’t accept that the loco could be at fault ??

I sent this loco back to them recently, as I noticed a squealing noise from the motor

I sent a decoder with loco and asked them if they would test it in the loco to see what this issue was

They greased and oiled the motor, but wouldn’t entertain the decoder issue