Samedan

Really looking forward to getting back to the Wigan exhibition. It’s long been one of my top two or three exhibitions. The mere fact that it’s still going due to the efforts of a small local team is remarkable. Let’s hope that, despite the rail strike, the “economic headwinds” and the unbelievable shenanigans of our new government team, it’s a commercial success and continues into the future. The hobby would be much poorer without the big Wigan show. Well done also to Wigan Council for making the sports centre available. I’m a bit disappointed that there are no Continental layouts this year and I understand that trade support is reduced. But the quality of the layouts on show looks really high. In the absence of Continental, I’m particularly looking forward to seeing a few excellent Pre-Grouping layouts. As a Wiganer myself, I take it for granted that, one, it will probably be wet and, two, there will be pies! 😊

I don’t know how many of you regularly look at Rails of Sheffield’s eBay site? I’m on their regular customer mailing list and their 20% off coupon offer has just ended. But there’ll be another one along in due course. I was sorely tempted to take advantage of it, as they appear to have had a recent influx of mainly Roco and HAG HO locos and stock, possibly from a single large collection that’s come their way? The rolling stock appears to be mainly non-Swiss, though a lot of the wagons are container types and therefore relevant, but there are numerous Swiss locos from both brands. I find their normal asking prices for used models are certainly not bargain basement, but the quality of these models is generally described as good - excellent.

Thank you, thank you, everyone. I think you can stop now, from my point of view, unless you’ve been bitten by this particular bug. The consensus from the responses is, I have to admit, pretty much what I expected from my own observations and common sense. In my mind’s eye I suspect I’ve looked at numerous stations where the line takes off on a significant gradient and just got the impression of a station on a ruling gradient (Bergun, Filisur etc). I probably also can’t “unsee” stations on rack sections, although even there, stations are preferably level. It is apparent, though, that at some locations, gradients start just at, if not slightly before, the end of platforms. I found a couple of stark examples of very simple halts on rack sections in the chapter entitled “Kleine und Kuriose Haltestellen” in Cyrill Seifert’s “Bahnhöfe dear Schweiz”: Rennaz and Lally. So, my choices for the layout are basically abandon the idea of a small, intermediate passing station, try to work a short, level passing loop into the plan (with resultant reduction in height gain) or simply employ modellers licence, as MichaelE has done with his model of Langwies and as I saw recently in a YouTube video from “Marklin of Sweden”. A decent length passing loop, with some scenic interest, would certainly help in the location on the plan that I’m considering. No trackbed has been built as yet, so I can ponder the question whilst I finish off the basic benchwork (to borrow the American term).

Hopefully, this will be a quick question that will elicit a flood of good examples. Ideally, I need to place a simple intermediate station - passing loop and one platform - on a moderate gradient on my U/C HOm layout. The loop will be about 3ft long. I understand why stations are normally as near level as possible but I wonder if there are any examples of Swiss “main line”, non-rack section, metre gauge stations on noticeable gradients out there? My line will be operated by the RhB but examples from MOB, Brunig or MGB etc will be gratefully noted.

It’s frustrating, as there are so many fine models made exclusively for the Swiss market, which are very expensive to buy new. I’ve never tried this Ricardo site and it sounds as if it’s not really a practical proposition from the U.K. I’m not really very into buying off eBay for that matter. I don’t know if you are on Facebook? There is a fairly new group called U.K. HO Scale Buying and Selling. It’s not highly active, as it’s membership still isn’t huge, but new members would help. Obviously it covers all European modelling, not just Swiss. You buy privately so it carries some potential risk, but I got onto it through a trusted source and have bought successfully from an established modeller. Items are also occasionally offered via the Swiss Railways Society and Swiss Model Railways groups on FB.

You’re probably right. But the quality of a lot of the items I see leaves a lot to be desired.I’m sure it will improve as the technology gets better and cheaper … and people learn how to get the best out of it.

That was my point. They are both addicted to online shopping. Saves on our petrol costs I suppose.

Wow! I wish I’d seen IO during the 70s and 80s with my current mind-set. The variety looks wonderful. My first visit to Interlaken was in the early 90s. We were on a Eurocamp driving holiday with our young kids and my brother in law’s family. We camped in Lauterbrunnen for a week before moving on to Austria. That trip did a lot to awaken my interest in Swiss railways but there wasn’t really an opportunity to do a lot of deliberate train spotting. But I remember playing crazy golf beside the line between West and Ost and being constantly distracted by the trains trundling past. The smart blue and white coaches really caught my eye. And we also visited the O gauge model railway which used to be located near West station in those days. if only my wife had realised then what was taking place in my mind and how much time and money it would entail in the ensuing 30 years! 😊

I recall a stand at a Warley show a few years ago. I can’t remember who had set it up, but it displayed a lot of Triang etc models from the 1950s, 60s and 70s, along with price comparisons along the lines of “this 4-6-0 loco originally cost the equivalent of 2 weeks wages” or whatever. It was quite an eye opener and a reminder to the “rose tinted hindsight” brigade that things were not always as good as they recall. Mind you, for the citizens of the country with currently the second worst real wage growth among the G20, the fact that prices are heading back in that direction is no cause for optimism.

Not in my garage! Nobody’s told my wife and son that there’s a world shortage.

Re460’s were certainly in plentiful supply on passenger duties in central and North East Switzerland in June/July this year. Interlaken Ost is a good place to regularly see them on the IC and EC trains, hauling mostly EWIV stock with driving trailer. One thing which struck me this year was the relative scarcity of Re460s in advertising livery. I know that, on the actual railway, the plain red livery was always more plentiful than the advertising liveries when compared with our model railways or the catalogues of the model manufacturers, but I wonder if the more garish liveries are being phased out? Sadly, Re465s seemed to be rather scarce on the BLS lines I travelled, although that was pretty much restricted to Interlaken-Spiez-Bern this year. And of course, all the lovely blue 465s now seem to be repainted into lime green. And another thing, does anyone else find that old blue, green, grey and yellow coach livery absolutely vile? It didn’t seem to last too long, so maybe I’m not in a minority?

Manufacturers/retailers will have to get more creative to sell in the market. At the moment, I’m seeing more frequent and marginally larger discounting but nothing radical. New, highly priced products continue to be announced. I suspect that by the time they are at production/shipping stage (if, indeed, they ever make it that far), they will drop like stones into a shallow puddle of spending power. Surely, design ingenuity and innovation will need to shift focus towards cutting production costs of “essential” items to make them affordable, rather than coming up with fancy new products. Personally, I’m glad that I have resisted converting my emerging layout and large stable of locos to DCC. Not only can I continue to build my layout using relatively cheap and simple new and pre-owned components, I can contemplate perhaps acquiring the odd new loco without paying the £100 premium for DCC sound etc and can ignore all the flash electronic gizmos out there. I’d still like to switch points electrically but, if the worst comes to the worst, I’d be prepared to rig up wire-in-tube systems etc. and I actually prefer to DRIVE my trains rather than have a number of them trundle around automatically. Aside from building the building kits etc that I already have on the shelf, I hope to embrace the opportunity to hone my scratchbuilding skills. The results may be more Blue Peter than Pendon, but, with luck, they will keep me happy. And fed and warm.

More seriously, the Joseph Rountree Trust and the Resolution Foundation (IIRC) have crunched some numbers and just predicted that real incomes will actually fall further in Winter 2023-24 than during the coming Winter, before recovering very slightly thereafter (all being well, presumably). This fall would be the largest ever reliably recorded in modern times (ie in the last 120 years), greater than the 1974 oil crisis, the 2008 economic crash and during World War 2. Desperate times indeed!

If we all order more stuff from Amazon, we will increase our supply of decent cardboard for scratchbuilding. Simples! Oh, er, wait a minute………..

Thanks all. I was hoping for a smarter fix than rotating a copy of the photo before attaching, but I suppose I may just have to accept it. I take most of my photos on my iphone and do most of my interaction with RMW on my iPad. I wonder if that has anything to do with it? Oh well…..

I suppose it was inevitable that we’d end up with a “political” / philosophical debate about how bad the problem is on a national level, rather than the original poster’s intention to focus on the model railway fraternity. I accept that I did my bit to steer it that way earlier on. I applaud the fairly polite way the debate has been carried out; perhaps we're just all in agreement that we are living through a “sh**show”? Since I last posted, my not very stunning forecast that the problems would only intensify is being borne out. So, getting back to the effect on the modelling fraternity - which, yes, is very First World but that’s why we’re here after all - I presume we can all agree that a substantial number, if not a majority, of serious modellers will have to rein in their spending. By a lot in many cases. Moreover, I predict that less committed entrants to and participants in the train set end of the hobby, for want of a better term, will see their spending on it fall off a cliff for several years. The effect on the hobby’s business community will vary according to which type of modeller they cater to and the degree to which their products are critical to maintaining active participation in the hobby. I don’t see any business being immune from the crisis/recession/stagflation/ economic difficulties. And I hope they are planning now for ways to survive, because I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for transformational help from any government, particularly the forthcoming one. Long live the hobby and the best of luck to all of you out there, individual or business.

Can I raise a photo related issue? Apologies if it has been addressed somewhere before or if it’s just me being stupid! When I try to upload a photo to a post or comment of mine, it appears upside down on the Forum. They transfer perfectly satisfactorily from my Apple photo album to other formats. im hoping there’s a simple dimwit fix!

The hobby probably made the shift from almost entirely making to predominantly purchasing soon after the first Hornby Dublo and then Triang Tain sets came out and made it an out-of the-box experience which could be shared between Dads and, predominantly, sons among a middle and skilled working class with increasing disposable income. But I would argue that it remained, and still remains, a blend of the two. Only the proportion of spend, time, effort and publicity given to the two extremes changes. My first layout was built in 1960 on a table top (it was TT after all) by my Dad. I was only 5. It was a blend of Triang TT, Wrenn flexi track, Airfix OO building kits and figures and Merit accessories. Beyond that, everything scenic was scratch built. Fortunately, Dad was artistic and practical. Although, naturally, I continued to collect RTR Triang locos and stock, as I grew older I absorbed the contents of Railway Modeller and Model Railway Constructor, particularly articles by Peter Denny, P D Hancock and George and Doris Stokes, together with books from the library by the likes of Edward Beal, and was inspired to modify Triang models, build various kits and scratchbuild some rolling stock and buildings, with the varying degrees of success you’d expect from a teenager. In later years, married and then with a young family, I attempted to build an OO layout based on the LNWR and the Midland. Most of my locos and stock would have to be kit built. Even though I’d sensibly shied away from EM or P4, I found that my skills and, especially, available time fell short of the challenge and this phase petered out in frustration. Later still, I discovered the amazing Swiss railways and some equally impressive HO exhibition layouts and began collecting in that scale. Today, laughably, whilst I have many lovely models in boxes, my Swiss HO layout is still in the early stages of construction. But my strategy is clearly to take full advantage of the large range of very high quality European models that are available, in locos, stock, building kits, vehicles and figures. Together with equally high quality Peco track. Why would I scratch build these things when there is so much choice and quality out there and I could use the time freed up to indulge my yearning to craft mountain scenery? Of course, I have to concede at this point that I have been fortunate enough to have had a decent income and understanding wife all these years, in order to be able to afford the higher cost Continental models. But I haven’t gone mad with my money either. The point of this long, rambling story (although I may have mislaid it somewhere) is that how we approach the hobby, and the balance between buying things and making them, will always depend on not only disposable income but also what’s available on the market to tempt us, our available time and our enthusiasm and energy. Im at the fortunate point where really, if I’m honest, I have more than enough trains and I now need to financially prioritise timber, track and electronics. All of those are increasing in price but I think I’ll be able to afford what I need to make significant progress on my layout. So, for the foreseeable future, my emphasis will be on making rather than buying. But others will not necessarily be so fortunate. I expect there will be even fewer train sets and new models under Christmas trees this year and next. And probably a few after that. And not all those train sets etc would have gone to young kids. Im now a “mature” modeller and I’ve been diverted from my main interest in recent years into building a garden railway and stuffing a display cabinet with various gorgeous RTR OO pre-grouping locos. I expect those secondary interests will have to take a back seat for the foreseeable. That will have a knock-on effect on the manufacturers, retailers and cottage industryers that I’ve been supporting. So, whether you’re a kid longing for a train set, a newcomer or early stages modeller, you’re going to have to make some hard choices. And probably learn some new skills to boot if you’re going to be able to stick with the hobby. It may be a good thing in some ways that those modellers won’t be bombarded with as many new, highly tempting models for a while, though the inevitable reduction may also make the hobby less attractive for some, since many people these days seek instant results. So, whilst it’s not all doom and gloom for the hobby, it’s going to be more challenging for the next few years for modellers and the business community that support it. If you’re still reading this far, I apologise for the length of this diatribe. I really should’ve spent the time in the garage building those baseboards!

A crashed Luftwaffe aircraft on a layout set prior to 1939 or after 1945 would be historically problematic. A crashed Zeppelin or Gotha bomber on a pre grouping layout set in 14-18 would be anything but a cliche.

Unfortunately, I firmly expect the tone of comments on this topic to become more pessimistic as time progresses. Why? Because, just as one example, the estimate of where the energy price will reach by mid-winter seems to be going up by a significant amount every couple of weeks. Yes, I know that we’ve had periods of high inflation etc before and model railways as a hobby has come through them. I’ve lived and modelled through them for well over half a Century. But, in terms of macro-economics, we do seem to be heading into a perfect storm. This does not look like the kind of cyclical downturns or even recessions that we have mostly lived through and expect. The economy is heading for Stagflation, where inflation is high but economic activity slows. This makes it more difficult to apply the normal economic levers to get out of it. I will also just add that the U.K. also has specific economic weaknesses which exacerbate the problem. This means that it’s not only a question of how individual modellers will respond to the challenges but also of how businesses that keep the hobby supplied will adapt to survive. Consequently, even if many existing, older modellers on index-linked pensions are reasonably insulated (if you’ll pardon the pun) from the economic storm, businesses will have to face higher costs (energy, raw materials and components, employee and financing to name but some) as well as reduced discretionary spending by modellers. I think this is bound to re-shape our hobby. We have become used to an ever-expanding range and sophistication of products. I cannot see this continuing at anything like the pace that we have seen. Moreover, our current capitalist model is also based on the assumption of ever-expanding markets and expenditure. I wonder whether younger, newer entrants will be able to take up the hobby for some time to come? I accept that this is a very “macro” view of the issue and that I am probably not one of life’s natural optimists. I hope, of course, that the Ukraine war ends soon and that politicians make the right calls and we start to regain a more stable economic path. Do I think railway modelling will die out as a mass hobby? No, actually, I don’t. The trend towards more leisure time - either by choice or enforced - is entrenched and fortunately there is a lot of financial, emotional and intellectual capital in the hobby to draw on. But modellers and the business community will have to change and adapt the way we go about it, in specific ways which a number of other contributors have already suggested.

I think both you and MarkSG make good points. Alan Downes was a great modeller but Peter Denny made the more telling point I think. Personally, I find layouts without any figures at all rather bland, particularly if a fairly busy, mainline station is being modelled. Many professional Architectural models include figures because they help to convey scale and also animate the scene. Viewers can identify with the figures and are mostly perfectly capable of suspending disbelief. After all, there are far more drastic features of model railways that require massive suspension of disbelief - such as the obvious fact that you are looking at something which is smaller than real life overall - than the fact that the people don’t move. And in photographs, which is how many layouts, especially those which never leave home, are shared with and viewed by people other than the builders, moving figures would be irrelevant. As you say, if you’re worried about it, there are many static poses which look quite natural. Looking forward, though, it’s quite likely, as digitisation and miniaturisation continues to develop, it will eventually be possible to populate layouts with miniature figures which do move, just as it’s now quite common to have vehicles performing very sophisticated manoeuvres. These would be likely to be mostly automated, pre-programmed to perform a set series of movements but it would be good fun I think to have one or two figures that could be radio controlled; a sort of Modelu figure of oneself for example. Imagine then that it might also be possible to have a miniature camera inside the figure, so that you could see on a screen what “you” see as your model representative moves around the layout! I now await someone telling us that they’ve already achieved just such a thing.

Just for the record, Winsford has shortened platforms but Hartford’s are still, theoretically, their original / long-standing length. The only trains that stop regularly at both of those stations these days are the Class 350 EMUs operated by London Northwestern on the Liverpool - Birmingham services. They normally run in 4 car sets, which appear to be about 80m long. It’s rare these days to get an 8 car train. Hartford’s platforms are potentially 200m long. However, during the most recent refurbishment, only a portion of the platforms received the full resurfacing. Whilst I’m very familiar with it, without actually visiting the station, I can’t be certain whether the length of platform in normal use could accommodate a 160m train.

I don’t know if the SRS AGM is going to be in Crewe again in 23 or back in Derby? Might we see you at either? Wigan is a brilliant, big but spacious show and then there’s always the Warley NEC of course!

Oh, I do love a good argument. And there’s nothing more enlightening than a bunch of armchair entrepreneurs and economists, myself included, speculating on the direction of a new business venture. To be clear, I have no skin in this game, as they say, except maybe a sentimental liking for old fashioned TT-3. I will definitely not be pursuing TT 120, as I have quite enough diverse interests to spend my precious time and money on, but I’ve no quarrel with anyone who fancies it. So, why do I have any interest or concern about it then, do I hear you ask? I guess it’s because, in lean economic times (and we sure as hell are heading into one), the business community supporting hobbies can be very vulnerable. The model railway business community is undeniably global and that’s a tricky space to operate in at the moment and for the foreseeable. We’ve all agreed, I think, that this may well be a relatively low risk venture for Peco, because of the strong overseas interest in TT 120. It’s noticeable that the three main manufacturers / suppliers involved are already experienced in U.K.-European collaboration and, given the growing frostiness towards China, that may represent the future (Brexit difficulties notwithstanding)? But if scarce investment funds are directed towards a completely new venture, rather than supporting existing markets (I’m talking just about the U.K. here, clearly), then the delicate business-consumer ecosystem of the hobby is potentially weakened. If, because they’ve overstretched trying to jump on this bandwagon, large, medium or small businesses in the hobby go under in the next couple of years, or even if other projects and innovations are merely set further back, then the ordinary enthusiast will reap the consequences and the hobby will be less healthy overall. Time will tell. I just hope it doesn’t all end in tears.

All fair points in relation to the track, which I had considered myself. As a modeller of Continental railways, I’m aware of Peco’s excellent reputation overseas. It’s the attempt to launch a “completely new” scale/gauge combo onto the U.K. popular market that I question.