oreamnos

Where I choose to voice opinions about a model is my choice. It is also not my responsibility to ensure a model is correct. That responsibility lies wholly with the manufacturer. If the powers-that-be at Dapol had any sense they'd be monitoring forums such as this one rather than apparently demanding people post comments on its proprietary site. (I've no idea if that is true or not, but I'd hope not.) The box-shifter discounted price for this model is currently about £120 which is up from £100 when it was first announced (how many ages ago?). At that price, Dapol should be pulling out the stops to get this model correct. However, if it cannot be bothered (and I'm not saying it can't; I don't know) to take advantage of the comments by enthusiasts who do not wish to join "Dapol Digest" then let it reap what it sows. If someone who sees the comments posted in this forum believes they have merit, they are certainly free to reiterate them on Dapol Digest. Matt

I am by no means an expert and perhaps it is just the angle of the CADs but to my eyes there are two very glaring problems: 1.) The lower body sides don't tuck under except directly behind the buffer beams and that is incorrect. There should be a tumblehome the whole length of the body with the area directly behind the buffer beams being even more pronounced. 2.) The tops of the roof indicator boxes are slanted at angle so that they are higher at their ends than at their roots. The roofs of these boxes should be parallel to the roof and cantrail of the body proper. The bogies also appear to be too close to the ends of the body and the NEM boxes seem to stick way out past the buffer beams - perhaps it is the prominent NEM boxes by themselves which are making the bogies look they way they do? I hate to say it but I am disappointed with the CADs. Matt

I disagree with the Modelzone analogy. Modelzone was a multistore chain with high overhead in rents and staff in multiple locations and from what I've read it's pricing was not particularly competitve. It also tried to cater to all interests and consequently was a master of none. Hattons have the one shop and a warehouse and have kept its business focus comparatively narrow. The one thing I do wonder about is its venture into the "pre-owned" market. I model N and I have (happily) found some out of production items and also some recently released items at bargain prices which I have bought and have been satisfied with. However, the vast majority of pre-owned N gauge items on offer are hardly bargain priced and many of them are from the "bad old days" of N, to boot. Compared to its N gauge pre-owned, the amount of preowned OO stuff listed each day seems huge. Since I'm not an OO modeller I can't assess the value of those pre-owned OO items, but if it's as low as the majority of the N gauge items it would seem to me that Hattons are taking into inventory a huge amount of product that nobody will ever buy. I acknowlege that perhaps this is an illusion if Hattons is simply relisting preowned OO gauge items listed months back but still unsold. I haven't noticed it ever relisting any of its preowned N gauge stuff to spark sales. Matt

That's kind of funny. I actually had two pre-ordered at £87 with Hattons and then when I saw all the pictures, I cancelled them - even with the US dollar very strong against the British pound right now. They just didn't look like a significant enough improvement over the 1996 Poole version (and the subsequent Bachmann re-runs) to justify the considerable expense. The older version isn't perfect but my impression of photos of the new one is that the proportions of the left and right "face" glazing panels seem off (too tall and/or narrow) and the vertical banding and rivets on the bodysides look considerably overscale. The bogies don't seem seem to have much relief, either. Perhaps they just don't photograph well and everything is actually spot on but at £100 apiece this is a model I'm happy to let others enjoy! If I stumble across a cheap used one in a few years time I might have a go, but not now. Matt

Re: The green one with the BR Arrows. This was discussed on this board elsewhere a little while ago. I seem to recall the discussion being that early 31s in the WR had this liverly for a while. I'm not thrilled with the white painted tyres. I like my locos to look ex-works, yes, but not "bulled-up!" Matt

I have read the recent posts with curiosity. My own experience with Hattons pre-orders has been excellent. I've had credit cards on file expire while waiting for pre-orded items to come into stock and each time I have received a timely and polite email from a member of Hattons staff informing me of such and asking me if I could update my card information so that they can charge my card and ship me the items. I've simply logged into my Hattons account, updated the card info and sent a short email back to Hatton's to tell them I've taken care of it. No muss, no fuss. It is (or at least it was, certainly within the past 12 months) possible to only cancel part of a pre order and leave the other items pre-ordered at the same time alone. From the preceding posts it's clear others have had some problems but I have not and I've frankly been quite pleased with Hattons customer service. Matt

Based on the glowing reviews above I placed an order with them from overseas. I'm very sorry I did. What a joke! The shop still had domino dot Graham Farish Class 40s in stock for £56.50. That's an older release of this model but a good price and given who knows now when Bachmann will release a new Farish 40, I ordered one. When ordering online with this shop, you can type in comments so I specifically requested the model be examined and tested so that it was free of flaws. I received the model promptly in a very well packed parcel and no damage was evident to the parcel or to the model's box proper and inside the model's box was tucked a nice little note that said that H. Smith had tested the model on 22 July, 2014. Unfortunately, one of the bogie side frame assemblies had a completely busted rear clip - the crucial bit which keeps the side frame attached to the model - it was completely cracked though and flopping about, useless and unrepairable. And one of the yellow nose ends had an large ugly glop of glue right on top. Bottom line - you'd have to be completely blind to miss the obvious problems on the particular model that was sent to me. The problems it had were not caused in transit - they clearly were there all along and if indeed H. Smith tested the model before it was sent to me then all I can say is that from my personal experience he doesn't know what he is doing and that little note that said the model was tested was complete bunk. I decided not to reach out to this shop to explain and complain. Why should I have to go through the hassle that I know will follow based on my prior experience with other shops? That's just not worth doing anymore to me. I had a spare bogie side frame and even a spare nose end for this model so I simply fixed it. It does at least run well. I will not buy anything from Hereford Model Centre again. Based on the comments in this thread I was hoping I'd be able to support another small shop. Lord knows I've tried to support small shops but like most others (not all, however), Hereford Model Centre is just another small shop that has let me down. Everyone talks about how you get better service from small shops but I cannot agree. For Pete's sake, this shop knew this was the first time I'd ordered from them - you'd have thought they would have tried to make a good first impression! This experience might very well be the final straw for me to simply just place all my orders with Hattons. As big as they are, I have always received superb service from Hattons. What a pity. Matt

I'm overseas as well, and I've had similar experiences with Hattons in this regard. What I have done to mitigate it is to add to my correspondence (letter or email) a picture (sometimes I've even used Hattons very own pictures!) and clearly labled the area of the model I am telling them or equiring about. This has actually worked quite well the two or three times I've done it. Matt

So glad to read this as on my blue/grey eastern set (the only one I own), I noticed the same thing. I did a bit of fiddling but there wasn't anything really to fiddle with because as you say, everything appeare to be correctly assembled! On mine, the motorized car sits level but the dummy one sits slightly lower at the rear than at the front. After careful examination (doesn't mean I'm correct!), I've decided the cause must have something to do with the dummy's plastic frame being warped slightly. That's beyond my skill to rectify and even if I made the attempt I doubt the payoff would be big enough to make the effort worth it. Matt

Well, given I don't have a choice but to buy sight unseen from overseas, it really makes no odds if the items are new or second hand. There is an unavoidable risk either way. As a buyer all you can do is lessen your risk by using a reputable seller. To their credit, the eBay sellers I've dealt with have all been honest people and the once or twice I had to return a second hand item a refund was issued no questions asked once they received the item back. As for buying second hand from Hatton's, it has been posted on another forum (one that caters to UK N gauge modelers) that Hattons has indeed issued refunds for the second hand items it sold which ended up being being returned for being less than "like new" when received by the purchaser. If I can fault Hattons for its "like new" sales, it is that firstly, I haven't yet found a clearly stated policy about returning them. Rail's second hand eBay sale's used to clearly state the items were guaranteed and they might very well still so state - I haven't looked. As a consumer it would be nice to see Hattons also clearly stand behind its sales. Secondly, some of the N gauge items (I don't look at the OO ones) Hattons has listed as like new clearly are not. For instance, this Peak: http://www.ehattons.com/74531/Graham_Farish_371_576_LN_Class_45_diesel_45114_in_BR_blue_Pre_owned_Like_new/StockDetail.aspx One of the domino dots headcode panels is completely missing and one of the bogie frames is clearly broken, yet it is still listed as "like new," and for 68 quid, too! That's just not right IMHO. That particular item should be offered as spares at best, and at a large discount. Matt

Interesting hypothesis. While I have noted the condition of some of the "like new" items is anything but, other pre-owned items are in excellent condition and I have bought some of them - three out of production Farish locos and two tank wagons. One of the locos was offered at a hefty discount, the other two were offered at prices comparable to current eBay sales. The tank wagons were discounted a pound each compared to when they were new. All the items were in excellent shape when I received them. And as an overseas custmer...I didn't pay VAT on any of it. Which makes Hatton's "like new" items a real bargain for me when compared to eBay. Not only does it mean the Hattons items are effectively discounted about 20% when compared to the same items offered on eBay, but Hatton's overseas p+p charges are also significantly lower than those charged by most eBay sellers. That, plus the fact when I deal with Hattons, I know who I'm buying from which is not usually the case with an eBay seller. I don't know who Hattons is targetting with its "like new" service, but as far I am concerned, as an oversears customer I really like it. Matt

I'm glad that has been your experience. However, I can say that the N gauge second hand listings have regularly seen items listed as "like new" that hardly are. Some indeed have serious faults visible in the pictures even though they are still listed as like new. Bargains on second hand items in N have also been few and far between. So...while my own personal experience with purchasing a few second hand items from Hattons has been positive, it has only been thus because of my own careful examination of the items for sale. Caveat emptor is certainly the rule with these items. Matt

I have been doing business with Hattons for almost 9 years from California. I have never (and I do mean never) had any parcel go missing and I have never used any shipping service other than their standard Royal Mail Airmail option. Furthermore, I have never had a parcel I returned to Hattons (and given the QC of Farish and Dapol in recent years, there have been plenty of those!) go missing, either. Again, only using standard, non-insured U.S. Post first-class airmail. From plenty of eBay purchases from UK sellers who insist on "signed-for" delivery, I can attest from personal experience over the past several years than I have received half a dozen deliveries of parcels where I had to pay for "signed-for" and the parcel left at my doorstep was clearly marked "signed-for" - but no one at my home ever signed for the parcel! All those fancy shipping options are IMHO a complete waste of money. Sure, if things I buy start going missing all of a sudden on a regular basis I will re-evaluate. But 9 years of no problems is hard to argue with right now. Matt

I think that pre-order was wisely cancelled. I have read elsewhere of other shops charging for pre-ordered goods far in advance of shipment. To me that practice reeks of a business desperate for immediate revenue and when a business is so cash poor I worry that they won't survive long enough to fill my order. Which is why I only place pre-orders with Hattons - no money changes hands until the item is on its way into my hands. Matt

I can't remember more than a two day delay between placing my order and receiving a "Picking List Packed" confirmation email from Hattons. In my experience they ship orders out extremely quickly - far quicker than any of the multitude of other shops I've ordered from in the past. And they charge considerably less than others for overseas postage, too. Hattons also answer email enquiries quickly. I can name at least one shop which does not, if at all. The custom I used to give that shop I now give to Hattons. Hattons also process refunds post haste. In this regard I can think of several shops who have taken a much more casual approach with my money. The custom I used to give to those shops I also now give to Hattons. Hattons also always deducts VAT for overseas customers. I can name one shop which did not. As you can tell by the past tense that shop went out of business. It's pretty easy for a shop to win over my business. Give me a good selection of merchandise at a good price with no-hassle service. Any shop which can do all that all the time gets my custom - and the benefit of the doubt from me when they happen to screw up (which Hattons has done a few times to me). I regret I am not very sympathetic to any shop that can't master those basic fundamentals. It's not brain surgery....or rocket science. Matt

But see my post #213 above - a Farish 3MT tank for £50. Also, about a month ago they had on offer "Like New" both blue and green Farish Class 40s from he latest production run (new @ £65) also for £50 each. So bargains can be had. I've actually warmed up to the way they have their second hand items listed as I'm finding it fun to check and see what they've added each day. Which is no doubt what they are after. The style of the photographs for the second hand items is also clearly different than for those items that are new. The only thing I take issue with is I can find no statement on Hatton's website about whether or not the "Like New" items can are sold as is, or can be returned if found NOT "Like New." Matt

Just thought I'd mention they now have a new service called the "Hattons Wishlist Service." Perhaps others already have experience with it and if so, to them I apologize for the superfluous post here. But others may find it useful information. If you have an item on your Hattons wishlist which has been discontinued and is out of stock, should Hattons obtain stock later, they will send you a handy email like the one I received, copied below: "Hello, We thought you may be interested in a pre-owned item that we have just added to stock. The item is: Standard Class 3MT 2-6-2 Tank 82041 BR lined green with late crest - Pre-owned - Like new We chose to email you because your wishlist indicates that you’d like to acquire one of these items and we don’t have it available 'brand new' You can see the item here or at: http://www.ehattons.com/69758/Graham_Farish_372_329_LN_Standard_Class_3MT_2_6_2_Tank_82041_BR_lined_green_with_late_crest_Pre_owned_L/StockDetail.aspx We hope this information is of interest to you. If you would like us not to send you email notifications like these, you can change your preference on 'your wishlist' page Regards Pre-owned Team Hatton's Model Railways Ltd" I thought this service was a little spooky, but then again without it I wouldn't have known I could purhase this item which I had been unwilling to buy for the original new price (mid £60s if I recall) now for £50. Which I did. And its a lovely little engine with no faults apart from the backwards installed dome which many Farish 3MT tanks were unfortunately manufactured with but which is a very easy fix. I like this service and I think I will be adding more items to my Hattons wishlist! Matt

This is informative. The crux of the issue is if a consumer takes reasonable care. I think the vast majority of people (and the courts) would agree that returning an item in the package and packaging it was received in via the same means by which it was delivered (e.g., standard Royal Mail) would meet the reasonable care standard. Insuring the returned item against loss (e.g. by using registerred post), however, really has no bearing on whether or not reasonable care was taken by the sender to protect the goods during the return. It is superfluous in that regard and is solely for the peace of mind of the sender and is of no benefit to the intended recipient. Given that, I find no fault at all with Hatton's policy on refunding postage. Matt

While I absolutely understand why you would be upset, in sum I'm afraid I agree with Hattons on this, too. You said in post #198 that you sent it recorded post because you didn't want to risk being out of pocket in case the returned item went astray. What you were really asking Hattons to do was to subsidize your peace of mind when you returned the item to them. I know Hattons sent you the wrong item in the first place but given they paid for postage again without any charge to you in order to ship you the correct item, I personally think its postage refund policy is reasonable. As you said though, each to his own. A very wise woman told me something when I was once affronted by something. She said, "You're not as important as you think you are." I've since found that to be a very helpful bit of advice in getting on in the world, day-to-day. Matt

I don't think you are in the minority at all. "Close" is good enough for me and many others and I don't care if this attitude of the majority doesn't encourage the manufacturers to make even more realistic models. I model because it's fun for me to do and while I would like my modelling to be of a standard to appear in RM or MR it's not going to be and I don't lose sleep over this. Different people have different levels of what is good enough in models and in layouts. If they want to turn making layouts into a pissing contest they are welcome to and I will admire their efforts that result. But having fun, not striving for realism, is why I'm in this hobby (along with many others) and that doesn't make me any less of a railway modeller than those who do. Matt

When I return items to Hattons from California, I always include a letter explaining the reason for the return. This is usually sufficient but I have had instances recently where although I described what the fault were in my letter, I've received polite emails from them explaining that while they are happy to help they can't find the fault. So on my two most recent returns I actually sent a picture to Hattons along with my letter highlighting the part that is missing or broken. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words and Hattons have emailed me in one instance to thank me for sending a picture to clear up their confusion. With mysterious poor running or electrical faults a picture certainly may not tell the story or may not even be possible, but where it is I would recommend this approach. Matt

Oooh. A wish list!! I'm a fan of nose ends and the 1Co-Co1 wheel arrangement so given this is a wish list and therefore an "in my dreams" list (and this is all in N, BTW).... 1.) Class 40 (but Farish probably have a big development headstart on this one) 2.) Peaks (I know the Farish Peaks are only 7 years old and have a first rate body moulding and a bullet-proof chassis but the way over-wide bogies and poor couplers let them down in a major way. Also there is no split headcode variant. With hindsight they would have benefitted by being developed after the D800 Warship and Class 24). I'm also a fan of prototypes, so... 3.) SR Bulleid 10201, -202 and -203 4.) EE 10000 and 10001 (yeah, both Dapol and Farish have big headstarts) 5.) Bulleid Leader 36001 0-6-6-0T 6.) The Fell 10100 7.) DP2 8.) Falcon 9.) Prototype HST I've never much liked Lion and Kestrel and their omission is intentional. 10.) I'm not a big Western Region fan but the D600 Warships were IMHO very attractive locos. Finally... 11.) Diesel brake tender. (Please!) I know most of those are complete non-starters from a commercial POV but I genuinely believe (through my rose coloured glasses!) that a few of them (Nos. 3, 7, 10, and 11) could be commercially successful. Matt

Dunno how I completely missed this thread until today! I share the opinion stated by a few others that as long as I can see through the cab glazing and out the other side, I'm happy. Rather like the Farish Warship or the Dapol 122 where only the seat tops are seen with the chassis/motor tucked under. But if the cab is filled I think I would be turned off. Memories of black windowed Minitrix 27s and Warships come to mind. I don't do DCC or sound, but my! How the innards of locos these days have gotten so complicated to meet the expectations of those who do. And then also having to keep the 2mm people happy? Yikes! I would personally prefer all wheel drive, metal body for weight/traction like the Farish 08 and 14 (And 03 and 04? I don't own either of those so don't know.), and also a set of traction tires on an inboard axle. But I'd happily give up any or all of those things as long as I'm able to see through the cab. Matt Edit - Also on my "would like to see list" is no wire connections between body and chassis.

I agree it's not always about price, but here in the "Greater Los Angeles Metropolitan Area" (Los Angeles city proper alone covers more than 400 square miles) there are surprisingly few shops dedicated to model railways, and frankly the reason why is because they do not even try to match the price of US online discounters such as Brooklyn Locomotive Works in New York. As I understand how the retail business works in the US, the shops all pretty much source their inventory from Walthers (which is the biggest wholesale model railway distributor by far over here in the States). The shops get a discount "for the trade" from Walthers which they then don't pass on to the retail customer in order for them to actually make a bit of a profit on what they sell. So prices in shops here are pretty much what they call "RRP" in the UK. The only time I've ever bought a loco or bit of stock from a retail shop in the post internet age is when I've found something of interest in a "bargain bin," and not all shops here have such a bin, though there is one that does in Provo, Utah that comes to mind. I'd love to support my "local model shop," but high prices, the fact that shops here don't have to accept returns of defective items like they do in the UK, and of course the fact that none of them stock any British outline means that there is very little reason for me not to look for the cheapest deal possible online. It's really a pity. Matt

Dunno about subsidies, but since it is clear from post #172 that Hattons monitor this board, let me say that one of the primary reasons I give them 90% of my custom from overseas is precisely because their airmail rates to California are reasonsable. Long may Hattons continue the practice. It may be that Hattons have negotiated with the Royal Mail more favorable overseas shipping rates because it might be able to guarantee to RM a certain minimum amount of total shipping business. Such deals between big shippers and the US postal service are not uncommon. Matt