Roy L S

Hi Lloyd Scans below. Regards Roy

Hi Lloyd I received a price list with my D16/3 last week. It shows the address as the same as the one from the link above. The 700 is listed, SR black number 306. Price £69 plus £3 P&P. In fact he shows pretty much his entire range in stock at the moment, even J38s and J39s. I hope this helps. Regards Roy

Can't help there!! Phoned my preferred supplier Osborns. They are due to be delivered later today, so mine (Green weathered) is duly ordered (together with chip) and should be with me tomorrow. Looking forward to this one. Roy

Hi Steve No problem. The price is £79.00 plus £3 P&P. Regards Roy

Latest Union Mills loco the D16/3 arrived today. Another very nice model of something the "Mainstream" manufacturers would never touch. I am really pleased with it. Picture below. It uses a new shorter tender which if not perfect certainly suits the loco well, and I understand will be used on future batches of the B12 too. Roy

I think the difference in the case of the Terrier is that while it may be to an extent "generic" it will still be a Terrier, and most people could probably live with that. The milk tank, being a mix of prototypes from different companies is somewhat different, and in my humble opinion far less forgivable. As I see it, the equivalent in the loco sense would be to cross the said Terrier with say a Jinty!

Very odd comment from Dapol, and I honestly cannot follow the logic at all. What they seem to be saying then is that they deliberately made it "wrong" and generic so that it would be equally wrong for all liveries??? Surely a model made to a specific Diagram, allowing it to carry some truly authentic liveries with a further range of Private Owner liveries authentic for 6 wheeled tankers in general but not that specific wagon would have been a better way to go? Honestly, I really wish that they hadn't come out with that comment!! Roy

Nicely played Kernow and great fun, even if I was wide of the mark, but it's not for me!

Is there also a need to remember the price this will sell at and manage expectations accordingly? There is going to be an 0 Gauge Terrier available (and hopefully later an 08 too) ready to run at around £200. That is an exceptionally competitive price which will probably attract a good number into the scale who would not otherwise have been tempted. I think we need to be realistic, it will not be perfection for that money or cater exactly for precise detail differences of the numerous variants and it is not realistic to expect it to. Nor do I believe it will, or is intended to compete with the likes Lionheart's own 64xx Pannier, where even the non-sound fitted one costs about £300 more. These products are surely but a stepping stone into the scale? Roy

Oh dear! Surely any livery/lettering errors like that should have been spotted at the artwork/decorated sample stage and corrected? Hopefully (just maybe) the pictures are indeed of a pre-production one.. Roy

Hi Thane of Fife I an sure that is the case but the underlying point of what I have been trying to say recently is pretty sound. As far as Dave is concerned, as his own plans are now set for the next couple of years (funded commissions aside) I guess "wish listing" is for the time being at least pretty academic whatever we would like to see. Regarding Chris N's list above, some great suggestions there I would say. Wrong thread I know but you would think a 78xx in N must surely be a possibility for Bachmann as I would think only a newly tooled loco and tender body would be needed? I guess that depends though how well the Ivatt 2mt 2-6-0 has done, and all three still show in stock at Barwell - interesting that unless my memory is failing me totally the price of that loco now appears to have been hiked once again, this time from £109.95 to £114.95! Roy

A fair point Matt, and probably not. In response to Mike's comment above, I thought I had already covered this point in the posting I think he is referring to (715). If the product were such a complete "lemon" that it took a number of years and heavy discounting just to sell the initial batches and recover tooling costs then no, clearly you would see no market for additional product and even at a lower unit cost you would not proceed with further batches - we are not disagreeing on that particular issue at all! However were there seen to be a further demand for an existing product where tooling *had* been amortised then there would be a far lower unit cost and far less risk attaching to that subsequent batch. For example (only) while there may too much financial risk for Bachmann to (say) do a newly tooled 9F (other models in similar circumstances may equally apply!) there is clearly far less risk for Dapol to continue to produce further batches of their existing 9F where tooling costs have already been amortised: - - Unit costs will be lower, - The all important "breakeven" will therefore happen sooner on the batch - costs covered and into profit. - There will (assuming pricing remains consistent) be a greater margin. - As a by-product of the greater margin also a "safety net", with greater scope to discount if part of the batch "sticks" without making a loss on the remaining stock. So, provided (and for as long as) there remains sufficient demand, re-runs from existing tooling makes good commercial sense as an alternative to brand new models. Of course there are probably a number of caveats to all of this, and one is the march of technology. There will come a time when demand for the "Dapol 9F" will fall away as it is not considered close enough to current standards, at that point the manufacturer needs to determine whether there would be sufficient new demand for a brand new freshly tooled "state of the art" model notwithstanding the existence of the existing one, as has happened many times in recent years. Regards Roy

Hi Mike As I have said in my reply to "Thane of Fife" I do not want to dampen anything down, I may not model 25kv electrics or Modern Image but I do follow them, not least because I live not far from the WCML. What am saying is that there is a need to be realistic based on what manufacturers have said and not build up false hopes or unrealistic expectations. It is no different to me being realistic about models I would like (e.g. K3 and D49) when even though a perfectly suitable tender and tender drive exists we are told in the case of the first is not likely to happen and the second probably isn't even on their radar! I mentioned the 87 and 90 only because they were referred to earlier in this thread. Regarding your comments on costing I am afraid I cannot follow your logic. Surely for any product you will amortise tooling cost over so many units. Even the slowest seller will hopefully cover those costs eventually, even if it means heavy discounting between manufacturer, retailer and in the end us as purchaser. The most successful products will sell out initial batches quickly, with little of it "sticking" on shelves and less need to discount. However once the tooling is paid for then as you rightly say costs are for production only, so surely unless the model is a total "lemon" that has taken years to cover it's costs (and naturally therefore assuming further sales are considered viable if that is your point) that means less cost per unit, less risk, less units to sell before costs are covered and assuming same RRP greater margin (meaning also more latitude to discount)? I.e. it is less costly and therefore less risky to produce further batches from existing tooling than to tool for a completely new model. I am not trying to paint a gloomy picture Mike, just wanting to be realistic. If there is felt to be demand for a particular product, surely it is not difficult with forums such as this for an individual (or group of individuals) to do a poll of members and if that looks good seek to crowd fund it, or put that research to the manufacturers (or indeed NGS). Regards Roy

Hi Thane of Fife Sorry to have lost you in that posting. Where I am on this is pretty simple really. I personally choose to model the highly popular BR steam/diesel transition say 1957-66 but am interested in British railways generally, and have been since I was in short trousers, my interest extends from turn of the 20th century all the way to current times. I live along the route of the WCML (Leighton Buzzard) and at one point recently was a regular traveller (on Desiros and the odd 321) into London. I observe the movements on the WCML on and off first hand - it is something I am very interested to follow and have got to know reasonably well. I am certainly not anti modern image or specifically 25kv electrics but do recognise their limitations in terms of being an attractive proposition for investment for a mainstream manufacturer (most specifically in the smaller N market). The point I am trying to get across is that if manufacturers have said (and they have) that 25kv OHLE models are slow sellers in N and there is reference to two specific recent excellent "state of the art" models to substantiate this, in the absence of any other market research proving otherwise, we have to accept what they say and not expect investment in further similar models to be a high priority for them. Dave (returning to this "wish list" thread) has said that this is his position too. If there is a belief that a new 25kv 87/90 or 92, Pendolino (or whatever) will sell in N, then that is contrary to the stated experience of the mainstream manufacturers (to date), so there is a need to (1) prove it and (2) find a way to make it happen. If the mainstream manufacturer will not "bite" then by way of (possibly) canvassing people to support one as a "Kickstarter" project, which Dave has said he would be receptive to. Now personally my modelling interests would not extend to more modern types generally but an electric blue AL5 just might tempt me to support such a project! In terms of 00, I do not on reflection think it is anything like as clear cut as the Market is bigger, and if Olivias see a market to commission a 76 which only ever ran in service over the Woodhead Route then clearly there is a bigger and more diverse demand for even some "niche" OHLE models. My reference to the K3 was to accept "Red Death's" point that there are slow sellers in steam too. The direct consequence of the slow sales of the K3 in 00 is that Bachmann have said it will not appear in N. It is a loco I (and a number of people) would like to see in N, but even with a suitable tender (and drive) already being available, I and those others will have to accept what the manufacturer says. I hope this explains. Regards Roy

This sure is getting repetitive... Speaking specifically regarding N, how is Dave's stated experience of the 86 at Dapol and Bachmann's comments (as shared by Ben Ando) about the Desiro "relatively little" information? Here we have the two most recent 25kv products, both relatively recent releases to modern specification, highly detailed, DCC ready and with lights etc, both the manufacturers (or in Dave's case former Chief Designer) have said these models have not done well. Why is it so hard to accept that based on this OHLE is likely to remain a relatively "niche" area of modelling in N that will probably NOT attract significant investment from mainstream manufacturers? IF there is such a fervent belief that sufficient market exists for a brand new 87 and/or 90 in N (to supercede existing Farish ones) and as such it is worth the risk to invest, then perhaps do some research to prove/disprove the demand (or if it exists already share it) and if it is viable consider going down the "Kickstarter" route to commission one. Dave has even said above that he would be open to discuss it. As regards steam, I am sure there are locos that have not done well. Les has already alluded to the K3 being a poor seller in 00 such that it is unlikely to be produced in N. Personally I would like one in N and I know others who would too, but it is not reasonable or logical to expect a manufacturer to produce it if their 00 experience was so poor. Indeed in N as I am given to understand that only the existence of the existing B1 tender drive made the J39 a viable prospect. I would not be surprised to learn that the same is true of the A2 as a follow on to the A1 (and without the "Tornado" market appeal would we even have seen that?). Turning to 00 and specifically availability of the 85 at heavy discounts, Hattons (just by way of an example - it was first place I looked) are selling E3056 BR Blue, single pan for £80 (list £112.45) with more than 10 in stock.. In 00 I though would probably concede that given significantly larger market volume generally there is likely to be more of a market for OHLE and indeed here Bachmann's relative willingness to invest with the 90 seems to confirm it. In 00 more models do already exist and here the issue appears to be more about how old and relatively poor they are against the current "state of the art" and needing upgrading rather than them not existing at all. Roy

To find out more about Crowd Funding I would suggest simply going to the "Kickstarter" website to understand how the process works. Regards Roy

Coming back to the topic of this particular thread, which is DJM "Wish lists" as Dave has already said he is currently (1) not keen and (2) announced his range of products for the next two years I am thinking as far as Dave is concerned whatever argument there may or may not be for further AC electrics it is not on his "to do" list at present. That is unless those who want a new (say) 87 in 00 were to propose their own "Kickstarter" project for one possibly? The level of pledges for the model would be one sure fire way of establishing how much demand is really out there and in what liveries and also reduce the commercial risk for a manufacturer? Roy

I would not presume to call anyone at Bachmann "fools" it may well be as you suggest, it may not. This 90 may reverse the trend, it may not, we will see. There is some logic to it as a product in it's own right. Consider Karhedron's point above. It is a small class of locos but they have carried an enormous range of liveries in their short lifetime, indeed on my trips into London earlier in the year, it was pretty much the only AC electric I would see (apart from maybe the odd 92 at Willesden) and probably in at least three liveries (Including the First Scotrail livery for the Caledonian Sleeper). It was at home with all current diesel classes (66, 67, 70 and very occasional 56) therefore it could be argued that it's success is not that dependent on any other electric loco being available. Maybe this could indeed be Bachmann's strategy and if successful maybe it will encourage sales of the Desiro too. Regards Roy

Hi Mike Well I can only reiterate what Dave has said many times about the 86 so it certainly appears to be no myth, and I would certainly not challenge what he has said was his experience at Dapol or "nose" for the right product. It has has more recently been confirmed by Bachmann's disappointment with the poor sales of the Desiro too (utterly ludicrous that they have been discounted to as little as £90 for such a lovely model but it speaks volumes). I would agree it is probably not a case of saying they don't sell at all, more that they have not sold in sufficient volume to justify any more investment. The old Farish 87 and 90 tooling has doubtless long since paid for itself, and I would anticipate that makes more runs of these less risky. As far as your point about main lines is concerned, that may well be the case now but to refer to the last 50 years not really being representative. There was comparatively little main line electrification in the most popular by far steam/diesel transition period, most did not come until later, starting in the 1970s (e.g. Weaver Junction to Glasgow 1974, ECML late 1980s, Thameslink ditto, GE main line what early 1990s?). Ignoring Third Rail (As we are talking of OHLE) all we had was the start of 1960s was the first stages of the WCML, the Glasgow suburban electrics, Clacton electrics the rather unique Woodhead Route and one or two others. Lack of demand in that key modelling period may well be one of the issues. Regards Roy

Hi Thane of Fife (Sorry Reply to Post is not working) To be honest I'm not sure personally how much a position on a "wish list" truly means in isolation given the relatively low numbers of votes typically cast. I would think we can be pretty sure that manufacturers would be influenced by a variety of other factors too in reaching their decisions and in particular sales of similarly themed models. Hence it is easy to understand why further OHLE models look unlikely, (more so in N possibly) given the slow sales of certain liveries of the 00 Bachmann 85 (which can be found heavily discounted), the above mentioned Dapol 86 and more recently the Farish Desiro too, and equally why Dave has responded as he has. I can understand why modellers will say we need this or that model to "unlock" a particular market segment and are I know quite determined in their assertion that it is the case, but If manufacturers have invested in a model or series of models that had not delivered to expectation commercially I can understand why they would be reluctant to commit further. Regards Roy

Yes, as Dave has confirmed many times, the N 86s struggled to "wash their faces" from a financial standpoint. I was surprised to see a 90 in 00 from Bachmann, but given the livery options noted above it is easy to see the attraction of this loco in isolation. That said, I would be surprised if it sets any kind of precedent for new OHLE models, especially given Dave's comments above. I suspect he knows the market better than any of us, and if he isn't keen, then enough said... Regards Roy

Hi Matt Agreed, it would have been even more disappointing had that happened but I was working from the premise that the book sets that were to have been released had been correctly researched, and now thanks to some good work from members here we discover that not to be the case. Regards Roy

Indeed, with the significant backlog they have to get through already it is probably not unreasonable to think 2016 at the earliest. It is a shame for all those who had preordered the coach set pack that they are now to be disappointed. Roy

If Dapol have it wrong, I agree it would seem right to feed this back to them with supporting data so that changes can be made before they commit to production. Roy

Given that they have secured exclusive rights to manufacture the model (and have held this exclusivity for quite a while now). I would have hoped they might be a bit further forward and pushing on an open door at DRS as far as get things moving is concerned? It appears then that they are now not even committing to a 2015 timescale? The locos are even running on UK metals now and I would really have hoped and expected Dapol might be a little more dynamic given the opportunity they have to produce an exclusive model of a brand new loco in two scales. Roy