flubrush

Thanks Jim

I managed to find some stock. Please note that these haven't seen the light of day for over twenty years when I had my last S scale layout on the exhibition circuit, so there's a bit of rust on the wheels and axles, and a missing buffer on one wagon.

And my memory was slightly defective. I forgot that I had opted for single end couplings, so I can't find a wagon with a central pivot and two hook arms. I do remember making a two arm vehicle with a central pivot, but |I think that was probably altered to go single hook.

The first picture is of the hook with its delayed uncoupling fitting

The dropper is a piece of paper clip wire soldered to the hook wire close to the axle of the wagon.

The next picture is the loop at the other end of the wagon - with the missing buffer.

The next picture is the underside of the wagon - with the rust.

You can see the heavy brass wire used as a pivot and the hook wire soldered to a piece of tube mounted on the pivot. The paper clip wire dropper is also prominent as is the fishing weight crimped on to the hook wire as a counterbalance. A brass etched underframe is excellent for fitting all these bits.

Lastly, a shot of the couplings mated

When blackened they become almost invisible and I left quite a lot of mine un-blackened so that I could see them

The turnout the stock is sitting on is for my new S scale layout after a break of all these years. Unfortunately it will be Caledonian, so these wagons will probably find a new home, but they will be useful for testing at the moment.

Jim.

This sounds remarkably like the Iain Rice 'Bingewood' coupling, albeit a variation on the pivot location - which is where I started the thread from from. Do you have any photos of your version in action / fitted to a wagon? I'd particularly be interested in the pivot arrangement and the shape of your hook.

I'll have to go and try and dig out some of my S scale rolling stock. Variations on this method are used by several S scale modellers in the UK, so the method is not original to me. I think I was the one who started doing the centre pivot idea on four wheeled stock and I nicked that idea from a Scale4 society kit for AJ couplings which I saw at Railwells The hook shape looks like a straight Alex Jackson hook - i.e. without the angular bends around the axis of the wire of the AJ.

I'll go digging in the morning - I can't remember where I've stored my stock boxes.

Jim.

Think I'll have to invest in an MSE test pack and see what the S&Ws are like blackened up. A fairly consistent view though is that they are reliable, easy to set up and reasonably robust.

You can always roll your own S&W style couplings using brass wire which, when blackened, becomes almost invisible. It doesn't take long to bend up the hooks and loops. You need to arrange a pivot for the hooks and I mount a pivot bar some way in from the headstock using some heavy brass wire and pivot the hook wire using a piece of tube which is an easy fit on the pivot wire. On a short wheelbase wagon, one centrally mounted pivot bar can do both hooks. You can counterbalance the hooks using fishing line weights.

I found the home-brewed couplings were as near as dammit 100% reliable.

Jim.

A strange thing you may find out about carbide tips is that while they will happily remove plenty of material with a deep cut, just gently winding the tool up to the face of the job can result in "ping" as the cutting edge breaks off. I am writing about deep cuts on bigger lathes of course. For the lathes we are discussing here, smaller cuts are prefered. As you build up experience you will get to know what you and your machine can do together.

I would agree with that. I find I have to work carbide insert tools quite hard to get a reasonable performance. If I want to do fine finishing cuts then I use HSS or carbon steel tools - especially on non-ferrous materials.

Jim.

Maybe, too, we've been banging on about exercising extreme care in what should be bought. Sometimes it is worth just getting something and seeing how you get on with it. My first lathe was a rather elderly Myford ML2 which I got for £10 (when my take home salary was £65 per month). It wasn't perfect and I learned not to try to part off in it but use a saw and face off afterwards. But I learned a lot about what the lathe could do, and what I wanted it to do for me.

The next lathe was a Super Adept which was rigged up for treadle operation on an old Singer sewing machine base. On that lathe I learned how to use a four jaw independent since that was the only chuck available for the lathe. I think the Adept also cost about £10.

Then Myford brought out the ML10 and I went to town and bought one new - almost bankrupting myself in the process - but the ML10 did all that I wanted from a lathe and with a vertical slide, gave me a lot of milling facilities as well. The decision to get it was based on my experience with the earlier lathes and what they could or couldn't do for me. I've still got the ML10 nearly 40 years on and it still does everything I want to do.

Also I had always wanted a milling machine and I finally got one about 10 years ago - a Centec 2A which is almost as old as myself. This machine then allowed me to do a lot of milling that is not easy on a lathe. The X and Y movements on a lathe are relatively small which limit the size of work you can do, and the average model makers lathe is not as strongly constructed as a milling machine, which limits the type of work you can achieve.

But another big help was knowing other engineers or model engineers. You could talk to them and see them doing jobs on their machinery and see what they had in their workshop. If you are new to lathes, it's worth looking out for a local model engineering club and joining it before you make any purchases so that you can benefit from other people's experience and you might also find out about suitable second hand lathes in the area which might be available.

Jim.

have a look on here,item no 7554:

http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/cat_branch.php?sub=1

 

It`s a myford ML7 bit garish but it`s still a current lathe & spares & accessories are all avaiable.

Note also the Simat 101 lathe on the same page - No. 7536. This is yet again another variation of the Flexispeed lathe which is today the Cowell lathe. There are pictures at the bottom of this page on the lathes.co.uk web site

http://www.lathes.co.uk/flexy/index.html

Could be a good buy if it has a lot of tooling with it - especially the chucks. They can be a bit expensive to source separately.

Jim.

Thanks Jim, it was as I suspected.

 

I'd rather invest in something half decent as it will last a lifetime and your comments have certainly helped me towards that decision.

Gordon,

I hesitate to suggest this but a good way of getting a good, older machine is to buy second hand. The health warning with this method is that you might buy a pup which either requires a lot of remedial work to get it into reasonable condition, or it might only be fit for the scrap heap. But if you do get a good, secondhand machine there is usually the benefit of a load of tooling included with it. A good range of tooling to go with a new machine can double the price.

If you have access to someone who knows about machine tools then he/she could be invaluable in assessing any second hand machinery available and advising you accordingly. There is a lot of good stuff around if you know what to look for.

Here's the URL of a UK Sales/Wants list

http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/index.php

For instance, there's a Flexispeed lathe (9th June) on the third page going for £150. The caveat here might be the seller has built it himself from a kit and he doesn't state if three or four jaw chucks are included - buying them new could cost about £300. The Flexispeed was the fore-runner of the Cowells lathe that I have just bought. If you've got the room, there's a Myford ML7 going for £550 complete with 3 and four jaw chucks and a lot of other tooling. Older Myfords are worth considering if you have the space since the company is still trading and supplying machines and spares.

In your searches, your online bible should be http://www.lathes.co.uk as has been mentioned already. It is an excellent review source of all machines which gives good pointers as to whether it is worth chasing after a machine, new or used.

Jim.

I'm experienced enough to know you get what you pay for, but am curious to know what the quality differences are between similar function machines. Is it worth paying the extra now or is this just the high cost of the € that is inflating the price?

It's basically down to "you get what you pay for". The Chinese import machines are very basic. In past years there were often complaints of the castings not being cleaned off properly. They do require checking over and cleaning up to make sure they work properly. You will also note that some importers (e.g. Arc Euro) offer these service at a price and also offer other improvements ( e.g. improved headstock bearings) - also at a price. If you take advantage of these offers, or do the work yourself and cost your own time, then you might find that the price gets close to that of the Proxxon.

Also, if you go to a model engineering exhibition with trade stands, try comparing the cheaper Chinese imports with the more expensive products like Proxxon, Myford, etc. by trying the controls. You will feel the difference between a machine that has been basically assembled and one that has been fitted together properly. So it depends on what you want. I prefer spending a bit more money and getting equipment that feels smooth, works smoothly and is accurate.

As a matter of interest I have just taken delivery (literally as I am writing this) of a Cowells 90ME lathe and it displays all the signs of quality construction and fitting, with a signed test chart. Granted the price of this lathe is probably way over what most modellers would even consider paying although it equates to the costs of building two high end 7mm loco kits. It is being bought by my business - I don't think I would have the necessary cash from my own back pocket. But I am buying guaranteed accuracy - at a price. You might be prepared to spend the time and effort to fettle a much cheaper product to get good quality and accuracy.

Jim.

Some more general books I've picked up over the years

Using The Small Lathe - L.C. Mason MAP

The ME Lathe Manual - Edgat T. Westbury - Percival Marshall

The Model Engineers Workshop Manual - George H. Thomas - TEE Publishing

Model Engineers Handbook - Tubal Cain - Special Interest Model Books

The Amateur's Workshop - Ian Bradley - MAP

The Amateur's Lathe - L.H.Sparey - MAP

Some of these might be out of print by now, or from different publishers. Abebooks might be the best hunting ground for some of them.

Jim.

3 Jaw Chucks are for round work, 4 jaw for square work, and faceplates for awkward odd shape turning or boring holes, and castings, or turning between centres, which methods are all explained more fully on the web or in books.

 

The vital one is the three jaw chuck for day to day use, but you have the luxury of the collets for fine work as well. You could turn out complete wheels sets on the lathe or turn domes etc., all made in the 3 jaw and in brass and steel.

The four jaw independent is also used to hold round material accurately with (as near as you can get to) zero run-out - three jaw chucks are rarely that accurate. It takes a while to learn how to set up material accurately in the four jaw, but once you get the practice it doesn't take too long. One of my first lathes was a Super Adept with only a four jaw independent so I had to learn. Some say that if you can only have one chuck with your lathe, it should be a four jaw.

Jim.

Well I for one do not have the faintest idea when it comes to milling, and what the benefits of horizontal over vertical (angle plate ?)

Here's a good diagram of a horizontal mill.

http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/hmill1.htm

Horizontal mills were normally used to remove large amounts of metal so were generally built like the proverbial brick you-know-whats . If you take off the overarm assembly and replace the arbor with a shorter one that will hold a chuck or faceplate, and mount a tool holder on the table, then you have a lathe. The "X" direction of your table is your cross-slide and the "Y" direction is your longitudinal feed. One advantage of using a horizontal mill as a lathe is that you can swing very large diameters.

To use a horizontal mill as a "vertical" mill, you mount an angle plate on the table to provide a surface (normally) at right angles to the arbor so that you can drill and mill like a vertical mill or drill, but in the horizontal position. Mounting a vertical slide in a lathe provides the same facility.

The only possible drawback is that it is not easy to provide a tailstock so turning between centres and drilling from the tailstock is not easy. You might be able to use or modify the overarm to provide a centre, and you could always mount the equivalent of a tailstock chuck on the table, but these operations could be a bit of a fiddle.

Jim.

My other hobby was model engineering, and a debate our club occassionally had was with regard to which machine tool was the better buy for for the beginner? Lathe and milling machine both had advocates. A friend who built a superb 5" gauge Britannia reckoned that a milling machine was the better choice, as he had had to do far more milling work than turning. Bear in mind the scale he was working in. For modellers up to gauge 1 I would think that there is possibly more turning than milling to be done. Once you get past the frames and spacers how much more milling is required?

If you have a horizontal mill you can do a fair bit of turning with a toolholder on the table, and can do most vertical mill and drilling operations with an angle plate mounted on the table.

Jim.