Dave Holt

As you say..

I'm more familiar with north-lights in the form of a saw-toothed roof, commonly found in single storey weaving sheds in the North of England. Compared with, say, cotton mills, the mill at Worcester (Worseter) is very narrow, so I suppose sufficient light would be provided by windows in the end walls and the north facing walls only. In contrast, lighting was a major issue in cotton mills and the later steel framed examples had walls made almost entirely of windows , with only very thin brick pillars between. Lucky for you that you're modelling the south facing wall!

John,

That corner of your layout really is very well modelled, I'm more certain than ever that a trip to the Emerald Isle will be required in due course in order to admire the whole thing!

I'm surprised a mill would have such a large wall area with no windows, getting enough light into the middle of the floors was usually a major concern. I assume that's how the real thing was? What did the mill do?

Dave.

John,

All looking very nice indeed. Regarding the chimney base, what materials, methods have you used for the ornate upper parts (showing in pale buff/off white), including the dendritic brick pattern?

Dave.

I can't claim any personal experience of building pointwork (that on my Delph/Holt layout being built for me by Tony Wilkins) but I would have thought that the prototype wouldn't have gone to the trouble and expense of fitting check rails if they didn't perform a critical role in the safe passage of wheels through the crossing gap. Perhaps in model form they don't have quite the same effectiveness due to scaling/vehicle mass effects? Also, check rail gaps and the back-to-back dimension were compromised in the P4 standards, so perhaps again, this has affected the effectiveness of the check rails, especially if the back-to-back dimension is at the top end of the tolerance range? I deliberately set the wheels on my stock a bit loose to gauge to reduce side play and then discovered that my gauge was on maximum tolearance already! This has helped when my locos ran on Ray hammond's S4 standard track, where the flange-ways are exact scale and significantly narrower than P4, but has caused the ocaisional bump on crossing noses on P4 track.

Anyway, whatever the theory, the main thing is to end up with reliable track and running and no-one appears to be recommending leaving the check rails off completely, as far as I can see.

Dave.

Ian,

Lovely photos indeed. The layout looks very good. Pity I wasn't able to attend S4N this year (clashed with a do on the Ffestiniog Railway that I'm committed to) so wasn't able to see it in person.

Have you any future shows booked?

Dave.

Michael,

You're right that the knuckles on the Gibson rods are too deep. The GA drawing scales off at about 1.872 mm whereas the etched rods are about 2.67 mm (same as the outer rod ends - which should only be about 2.4 mm). You haven't illustrated the finished versions, but hopefully you've ended up with something like the right size.

Dave.

Is that scratchbuilt Dave? The Comet one is still a long way ahead of the solid lump that Hornby provide so will do (for now).

 

 

Actually, it's a heavily modified Comet - but an older design than they now supply and with my own arrangement of sliding bearer plate on top. Even in P4, I use the "OO" spacers and then fit dummy axleboxes or short lengths of tube to space out the wheels.

I agree your new bogies look much better than the solid block Hornby. Perhaps if you do eventually venture into EM you might try the approach mentioned above?

Ref Coachmans comment, I notice you've fitted one set of bevelled and one plain rim wheels. Although no Black Fives were built that way, since LMS wheel sets were interchangeable, it's not inconceivable that some locos ran with mixed sets. Certainly, rebuilt Royal Scots ran with mixed plain and bevelled driving wheels.

 

By-the-way, the same width issue applies to front pony trucks on Stanier/Fairburn locos and Crabs.

 

Dave.

Today, I have mostly been messing around with bogies; comet bogies, not snotty ones.

 

I ordered a couple and decided to build one in OO and the other in EM, as you do.

 

From left to right: Hornby (which I have just notived is upside down), Comet OO and Comet EM. There is a LOT of sideplay on the OO ones, I need to dig out some washers.

 

 

Jason,

 

I hate to  put a downer on this, but the bogie frame spacing on Stanier locos was very narrow - only 2' - 9" (11 mm ) (approx) over the outside of the frames, The gap between the frames and the wheels was filled by the axleboxes mounted outboard of the frame plates. There were also thick external equalising beams consisting leaf springs between two side plates, resting on top of the axleboxes.

Here's a (not very good) photo of this type of bogie, minus axleboxes and wheels (actually in P4 for a BR Standard 5, but exactly the same as a Stanier).

 

 

Regards,

 

Dave.

Looking at the photo of the Brassmasters parts:

1) For the exhaust injector you need the item on the right with the straight large steam supply pipe, which faces towards the front of the loco. The connection at the end further from the sprue points upwards. The injector runs parallel to the loco centre line.

2) Unfortunately, the live steam injector (bottom left) is the opposite hand to the one you should really have. If you want to use that casting, it stands vertical with the end further from the sprue at the top and with the two connections facing in towards the middle of the loco. The connection with the elbow in the middle of the casting is the overflow, but should really face towards the front of the loco whereas with this casting it will face backwards. Perhaps you can live with that?

Dave.

The two upper items are two different configurations of exhaust steam injector. Below them on the left are the vacuum brake ejector (not needed, as stated above) and the live steam injector at bottom left. The rectangular object on the right is the mounting bracket for the chosen exhaust steam injector.

As advised by OzzyO, you will need a grease separator in the large (4.5" O/D) pipe which runs from the smoke-box saddle to the exhaust injector under the RH running board.

Dave.

Jason,

I agree wholeheartedly with all the positive comments made by others. You really have captured the essence of a grimy mill town and the railway set in its environment.

I very much look forward to the chance to see it in the flesh some time in the future.

Great modelling,

Dave.

I use a length of 0.33 wire, bent to an L shape, with a bit of 5 amp fuse wire wrapped round and twisted together, soldered onto the exposed leg of the L, to represent the shape of the body and operating spindle.

Dave.

thanks David

 

might seem a bit of an odd question but how are they attached to the loco, to the frames or under the cab?

I think it might seem more obvious when I get hold of the parts.

 

also wondering what is the small valve on the drivers side just behind the smokebox on the boiler?

On LMS locos, the live steam injectors were mounted to the back of the cab steps (which were braced to the frames, not just dangling from the cab, as usual on a model!). The exhaust injector, being a massive lump, had it's own support bracket attached to the cab support arrangements. In model form, the Brassmaster's casting has this bracket as an integral part of the injector casting. Depending on your model and how you mount it, you may have to shorten or extend the mounting to end up with the injector at the correct height.

As Ozzo says, generally, on a model, the injectors are attached to the body for convenience, but it depends where you split the cosmetic pipework. On my BR Standard Caprotti 5 I actually made the injector and part of the exhaust steam feed pipe a permanently attached part of the chassis and split the pipe under the foot plate so the forward part was attached to the valve gear mounting! It just suited the way I'd made the sub-assemblies on this particular model. There's no fixed rules, just do what's most convenient.

The small valve you mention was to attach a steam cleaning hose/lance, used mainly for cleaning out the boiler tubes of soot and ash. You'll see this on LMS Stanier and BR Standard locos on the RHS of the smokebox near the front and on GWR locos on the front ring of the smokebox..

Jason,

First, it was a great pleasure to meet you and chat at the Watford show. I'm impressed with the further progress you've made and the scenic additions are setting the railway nicely in place.

A technique for dirty stonework passed to me by Gravy Train (Peter Leyland) is to first paint the whole stone surface with the chosen stone colour and let thoroughly dry. Then over coat with matt black or other very dark colour and wipe off after a few moments with kitchen towel in a vertical direction. This removes varying amounts of the black from the stones but leaves the mortar courses black - as mentioned by Larry. I used this techniques on the coal drops on Delph/Holt and was very pleased with the result. Depending on how soon and how hard you wipe the black can give different degrees of sootiness and some variations in final shade.

Dave.

You could try Alan Gibson (Colin!) or Brassmasters for the exhaust steam injector. Make sure you get the LMS type, not a BR standard - they're quite different.

The small pipe you mention is the live steam changeover which runs from the RH steam chest, at the front of the loco (it actually comes up through the running plate just behind the snifting valve and taps into it by the side of the smoke-box), to the exhaust steam injector. I would guess it would be 3/4" or 1" O/D. The example in the photo is fairly worn and battered. When new, it would follow the underside of the large exhaust steam pipe much more neatly.

Ozzo is quite right, these are the valve spindle covers. However, these locos had Walschaert's valve gear, unlike the 4F's, which had Stephenson's.

I seem to recall posting a drawing of the correct valve gear arrangement for the 7F's earlier in this thread (as per Ozzo's link).

I mainly use 5 amp fuse wire about 0.25 mm dia), as Coachman suggests, although even finer wire from Eileen's would be more to scale - the real things are only 1/4 or 3/8" o/d.

To fit the pipes neatly, on one loco I sawed the lubricator casting in two, horizontally through the cast holes/dimples, put saw nicks across one of the cut faces to locate the wire pipes, then glued the lubricator back together trapping the wires in place - mind you, these had 7 or 8 pipes each side and the chance of drilling a row of tiny holes in a straight line and equally spaced was nill. If you have access to a riveting tool, then Tony's suggestion would work well.

Dave.

Looking good, Steve. There's a hole in my layout that would just suit such a signal!! Perhaps that's because......

Dave.

Hi, Sandside. I'm impressed by your mill building - a proper sized structure indeed! I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but can you say a bit about the cylindrical brick chimney, even if it will be replaced in due course by a square stone version. I need a large brick chimney for my layout and have been pondering various methods of achieving it - including having something turned out of wood and covered with an etched/embossed outer layer.

Dave.

Gilbert,

Thanks for the explanation and series of photos - all quite clear now!

Regards,

Dave.

Hi, Sandside.

Just love those houses (by the station) shown above. In the past, I've made one or two observations about the colour/degree of blackening of stone buildings in the North West, and I think you've got it absolutely spot on with this pair.

Keep up the good work!

Dave.

Lovely photos, once again - this really is a wonderful looking model.

Without wanting to be picky, the head-on photo of Golden Eagle clearly shows it running through a trailing point which is set against it. I seem to recall some earlier discussion about this, prompted by a photo which was less clear on the matter, and you thought it was electrically impossible.

Hope it didn't cause a derailment.

Dave.

There's a few B&W photos of Bacup in the Irwell Press book, An illustrated History of Rochdale's Railways. Although you obviously can't tell the actual colour from these, it gives an idea of how dark or light the buildings were. In fact, the degree of blackening seems to vary quite a bit between buildings and, with Bacup being more on the fringe of the textile belt, they generally don't look as black as stone did in Oldham, where I grew up. There, stone (and brick) really was almost jet black in the mid to late 1950's.

Dave.

Just Googled Bacup and had a look at some buildings in the town and I think you've got the colouring just about right, yes, it might benefit from drybrushing a little black onto some of the stones as this is very characteristic of this type of stone.

Don't forget, stone buildings today are much lighter in colour than than in the heyday of steam (washed clean by years of nice clean acid rain!). Before the clean air act and the demise of the textile industry, buildings in the industrial north west were almost black with just a hint of millstone grit showing through here and there. Check some period photos rather than how the stone-work looks now.

Dave.

Ian,

Firstly, sorry for getting your name wrong on my earlier comment - no insult intended! In my rush to post during my lunch break I must have mis-read an earlier post!

Anyway, thanks for the additional viaduct photos and explanation. I love WD's and have one to appear on the Delph goods from time to time - I'm not sure they ever ran there in reallity (I think Lancky Cl 27's and Fairburn tanks were used), but Lees had some, so they could have. I was lucky enough to spot Larry's push-pull coaches when he was producing them and bought sufficient to make up several prototypical driving & trailer combinations (in conjunction with a couple of coaches I made myself).

A future visit would be something to look forward to. I'm retiring on Friday, so will have more time for modelling related activities!

I'll look forward to S4N in 2013 & 14, then. I'm there myself, this year, doing loco constuction. If you attend, please say "Hello".

You mention an MRJ article on the use of Safeprint foam sheet - can you advised which issue number it was (I have the lot, including issue 0!).

Dave.