Pennine MC

I'm sure I read somewhere in our wealth of transition tales that early blue was not especially colourfast and this, coupled with various and sundry practices of the era, did nothing to help preserve the finish for any length of time.

I think it's further back in this thread that the 'whiteness' was probably cleaning fluid deposits.

Nice wrapround FYE on the 110 in the Morecambe shot

Don't believe BR was still transporting cattle at this late date, the photo is from 1967.

I cant speak for the wagons in the Flickr shot, but flows to/from Kyle (for Skye) laste until 1971/72 and the Holyhead traffic is now quite celebrated (IIRC finishing in 1975, as Nick mentions)

Is it my imagination or is the paint on the door a slightly different shade from the rest of the sides? This could indicate a replacement door from a 1/109 which wouldn't have these markings. Otherwise they just haven't been applied. So much for livery standards!

It is very slightly different, and significantly less rusty (compare also with the wagon behind the 37 at Carlisle). Given that the bottom doors were passing out of use anyway, going to the bother of denoting them would seem a moot point anyway.

Why the tarpaulins? Is it a finer blend of coal or different commodity altogether?

Could be almost anything Paul, what's often forgotten is that these wagons were designated 'mineral' for a reason and didnt just carry coal class products. In that particular location (Carlisle), I'd suspect Cumbrian gypsum, but 16 tonners were also sheeted to carry sugar beet and no doubt other things that didnt improve when wet.

 

But why not carefully cut the door out of the appropriate part of an Airfix brake van kit, and either use what is removed, or if you feel it is too thick, make one out of three layers of plastic card, i.e. with a middle "sandwich filling" of glazing material?

No need to cut, the door is a separate part (though as you say, it could do with thinning or replacing if it's to be seen edge-on).

Must admit ES's comment brought a wry smile - at one time I thought it was the law that you had to build it with one door ajar

I don't believe any Crewe-built machines had doors, it was only ever those initial five.

Were they the ones for the driverless experiments?

Why not do it in one of the old Airfix 16t kit boxes....even smaller, just 1 wagon...

I am reminded of that phrase so beloved of kit reviewers: the box is large enough to store the completed model .

Well it is a cliche thread

Larry,

I believe the offending Hall was returned via Stockport and Crewe so Greenfield would have seen it pass through.

Wasnt the offending Hall a Grange though, Derek?

That's a shame. I was waiting for the link to photographic evidence that a 4VEP had been seen in Hawick .

It's in 4VEPs Countrywide, shortly after the S&D chapter.

Is it not just as straightforward as the list Paul? BR Green (no warning panel) 21s with discs, and 29s (in three flavours) with route indicators - or am I missing something because the it seems correct?

 

[snip]

 

Confirmed Bob, FWIW - maybe not the best choices, but no reason to think any are incorrect from that info.

... Here's a picture of the empties in late 1966 - http://www.flickr.co...ins/2971859657/

Nice pic, caption is thought provoking also. I'd initially thought it was a bit off the mark as I thought the Mond 45T caustic tanks were early enough to be vac braked (1965 build), but having checked, there was also a 1966 batch with air brake and vac through pipe - and those tanks do look very smart and new. The first two vehicles, though they probably there for braking, are a Prestwin and a Presflo, which as bulk powder wagons are too specialised to be there for that reason alone - other photos at this period exist of them mixed in with the 45 tonners so it's likely they were just part of the pool at the time.

Thanks Mike - not able to check numbers ATM but if that's what I think it is and is formed correctly, it's what I mentioned earlier:

Gary, Richard - thinking about it now, I'm not sure if any of the four-lamp Blue Square sets were delivered as twins, other than the very early 501xx MBS/560xx DTCL, which IIRC had Rolls Royce engines and were thus 111s.

Only a hadful of sets, IIRC.

I hope you're not inferring I'm a nit picker Pennine?.... ;-)

As if

I didn't realise these ones were destined to be three and two car sets though. I guess it demonstrates the versatility of the DMU fleet.

Cant remember where I read it, but looking at the RCTS listings (power cars numbered 51425 - 444 and 51495 - 514), it makes sense - there are enough cars for twenty triple sets, but listed as delivered as ten power twins and ten quads.

Not necessarily so Pennine. I believe there was a batch of four car sets with DMBS/TS/TC/DMC also used on the NE region.....

 

I did say 'typical' I always choose my words carefully Sean, what with all the nitpickers round here

I'd have to check, but I think that was due to some sets being ordered as triples but being delivered as twins and quads.

...(they used the 108 for a 107, when theres a world of difference between the two units ) so they have form for it.

As Gary says, an unfair comment. It was the commissioning retailer's choice; using an existing model for that purpose is a world apart from the (theoretical) possibility of cocking up a new one. Given that the 108 was the first ever decent 1st gen DMU, the Cravens improved on the 108, and the DLW has in turn improved on the Cravens, I'm certainly not fretting at this stage.

Yes, fully realise what you are saying but all I am suggesting is there might be a market for center/centre or however it is spelt, mental or otherwise, cars being provided by the original manufacturer, Bachy in this case. I assume you are suggesting this is non starter, manufacturer wise.

Not saying it's a non starter Brian, just pointing out the necessary considerations; not just for yourself but for other readers who might not be so clued up on DMU formations. If I were a betting man, I'd say a 3-car Bachy 101 is very likely, in due course.

Surely there is a market for "centre cars" as Tri-ang used to call them. I would certainly love to (re)run a 4 car North Eastern Region Metro-Cammell dmu train of the type I remember seeing on the Durham coast line.

 

The thing with the 'centre car' mentality is that you can't (authentically) just add them at will as one would have with the old Triang sets of the '60s, because your usual 2-car DMU is usually a power/trailer combo which in reality, wouldnt have sufficient power:weight ratio. What's needed is for the driving trailer compo to be modified into a motor compo, which then gives two power cars that can either run together as a 'power twin', or can cope with up to two trailers. This is what Bachmann have already done with their 108, and could theoretically also do with the 105.

As I commented earlier in this thread though, a typical NER 4-car set had the brake in one of the trailers, which would necessitate a further body tool

Curious straight line on the left hand one, almost like they were attempting some sort of replate effect.

Very probably, IIRC it also has its tare weight (on one side or t'other) high on the body, which is another known effect of replating.

However it does leave Hornby with a real issue - they need a Modernisation Plan DMU , and they've just lost their main presence in that niche.

In light of recent discussions, I'm not sure Hornby think in terms of 'needing' a presence in any particular market sector, I suspect the Limby 101 will roll on as long as it keeps selling, just as other Limby models that are duplicated do

Hmm. Good news, but having seen the lightweight for the first time the other week while visiting the parents it makes it an even greater shame that Bachmann havnt sprung their extended shank buffers.Still, leaves something to do!

i'm puzzled. Why do you need sprung buffers on a 4mm DMU?

According to the Railcar site (archived 'old' version I've found) Batch 2E was made up of 12 power/trailers and delivered to Darlington. These were the last sets built with the four marker lights and the only twin sets with that specification. 12 probably isn't enough to warrant a production run mind...

No, it probably isnt worth it for a twin, but if they were to go on to 3 or 4 car sets, it would come into its own. Something that would really move the short frame DMU game on IMO is a proper 'NER quad', with an MCL each end and the van in the trailer. Froth alert...

Quite agree in general Stewart, although 'First Generation DMUs in East Anglia' (John Brodribb, Ian Allan) has a couple of pictures of a 2-car set including E56362 on the Hunstanton line and a similar set (could be the same one?) at North Walsham, all taken in 1969. The 'Combined Volume' I used when I started spotting at Cambridge in 1968 has this car and E51204 underlined - at the time I hadn't travelled far afield on spotting trips, and I remember seeing a Metro Cammell with the distinctive lining in Cambridge around then - which stuck in my memory as being unusual compared to the DMUs we usually saw.

 

I'd be interested to know when this set came to East Anglia (and whether there were any others)

I'm sure there were others Steve, but I think it would date from around that 1968/69 kinda time - they probably came south as replacements for withdrawn Lightweights

I believe the Buffet cars were just loose coaches added to three car sets, (or replacing a TSO in a four car set) for the NE region. I also think I'm right in saying they were exactly the same window pattern as a TSO just with the window aperture plated over. They even had the aluminium window frames still in place.

 

I'm sure someone will be able to clarify this though.

 

That's pretty much it Sean (as an aside, I converted a Triang one back in my teens). They were 'loose' AFAIK (in the respect that they werent delivered as part of sets like most DMU cars). As long as the buffets were operational, I think their main routes were Newcastle - Carlisle, Newcastle - Middlesbro and the Calder Valley.

Gary, Richard - thinking about it now, I'm not sure if any of the four-lamp Blue Square sets were delivered as twins, other than the very early 501xx MBS/560xx DTCL, which IIRC had Rolls Royce engines and were thus 111s.

 

Of course, we can ponder whether they will be as built with just the guttering over the doors, or as rebuilt with full length gutters, and whether they incorporate the new heater grilles fitted in the 1980s.

I cant see them compromising too much on this Phil, not after the excess of riches that was/is the Lightweight. I think the green 'uns will have the short gutters and the refurb will be a proper refurb. There might even be an early four-headlamp variant, though that is very conjectural on my part

I can actually justify one of these without recourse to blather and bullsh-one-t!

Doesnt mean you have to stop though, eh Tim

 

Tellingly, the linked shot shows the blue SYP unit pass the plain green railbus. I'm quite surprised that the whiskers on that particular 'bus hadn't given way to yellow panels even by '68.

Probably the same AC 'bus that we used a Colour Rail shot of in 'Modelling the BR Era' - that was dated the previous summer and I think I've made reference to it before. Obviously this adds another seven months onto the 'last whiskers' date.

Do you mind? It was nice and quiet in here

The Sankey ones are fairly new out AFAIK, a mate has recently picked some up for me. Not had opportunity to use them yet but I cant see them being radically different. I also cant see any significant difference in quality, both are well printed and 'look' right. It would be easy to assume that the Sankey are a copy of the Hollar. but that's not the case - they do some that Hollar dont, such as Aberthaw Cement, plus some of those that are 'duplicated' are actually slightly different designs when you look closely.

As you say, the Sankey are more varied whereas the cost of the Hollar mounts up if you want a range of designs. Against that, the Hollar includes some ready-distressed, though it's quite fun doing that yourself - I like to cut through them in line with the plank gaps for a really worn look