DY444

90006 Modern Railways Magazine/Roger Ford

On 14/06/2022 at 12:26, Gordon A said:

Let us hope the mechanisms are better than the 00 ones.

Strange remark.  My Heljan diesels are far better runners than any of my Hornby or Bachmann models, and they need less maintenance too. 

20 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

What struck me about Liverpool Street on my Elizabeth Line journey is just how subterranean the platforms feel - very dark and enclosed. A big contrast to places like Paddington, Waterloo, St Pancras where all is light and air, especially where diesel has been replaced by electric.

 

Yours, Mike.

But similar to Cannon St, Charing Cross and the Brighton side of Victoria though.

On 07/06/2022 at 18:00, Dunsignalling said:

The illusion at last falls away that HS2 will be any more than a way to provide London with workers who will never be paid enough to live there, from an ever greater catchment area within acceptable commuting times.

 

"The North" will not benefit, because it's no longer going to get that far and what does get finished will just turn Manchester into part of the Midlands.

 

John

 

 

What a bizarre argument that improving journey times between two disparate places somehow makes them morph into a single entity.  I must remember that the next time I go to the picturesque French town of Ashford.  And by the same token I presume your trans-Pennine HS line would mean that Yorkshire becomes part of Lancashire and Merseyside becomes part of Greater Manchester.  Somehow I think not.

Historically there has always been plenty of all day demand into London from the provincial cities.  Attempt to walk through the vast crowds which swarm onto Westminster Bridge any day you like and you'll hear accents from every corner of the UK.  The idea that somehow HS2 was all about letting Brummies work in London was never true and as London has seen the biggest percentage drop in commuting then it is unlikely ever to be.  You only need to venture onto those quiet country thoroughfares the M1 and the M40 to see what the north south travel demand is.  They aren't all going to work.

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

How about Eurostars own Rfp which is a matter of public record due to the legal case brought by Alsthom.. published December 2009…

 

Whilst obviously the case brought reads of woe towards Alsthom, it does contain relevent dates, content and timelines..
 

Exact quote (as sourced in various legal libraries)….

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2010/2747.html
 

I doubt any respectable journal would publish information that is not of accurate legal record.. Even if you dont believe the RG.

 

Of course companies change their mind and 6 years later they did.. but fortune tellers and crystal balls are not usually admitable as evidence in court ahead of occuring…just as much as re-writing history wont change public record after… i’m sure Alsthom would love to be able to use hindsight if they could at this point.

You're conflating the intention with what actually happened.

The intention was to add additional trains to the fleet and carry out a heavy overhaul and refurbishment of the 373s.  Thus an order was placed for the additional trains (374s) with Siemens. 

However when the heavy overhauls of the first 373s began and they were stripped right down, it was discovered they were in far worse condition than expected, especially the power cars, and needed a lot more work than had been allowed for.  The cost of this extra work was of such a magnitude that the whole viability of the project was re-examined.  This led to the decision to flip the whole thing on its head and order more 374s to form the core fleet with a handful of the better condition 373s going through the refurbishment and heavy overhaul programme to provide the extra capacity (and legacy route availability where needed). 

So as I said, we ended up here because the 373s, especially the PCs, were knackered.  Far more knackered than Eurostar thought at the beginning, but knackered nevertheless.  Not realising that a train is in far worse condition than you thought until you completely strip it down is quite common and has put a spanner (or another spanner) in the works of many a rebuilding or refurbishment programme.

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

Ah but your changing history now…

 

https://www.railwaygazette.com/passenger/eurostar-picks-velaro-to-expand-fleet/35350.article

 

Nothing there about knackered 373’s, replacement, or 373 going to places 374 cannot, indeed its quite the opposite,..

 

And that article was already after DB announced its bid too… 1st Oct 2010.

 

and for DBs bid… they make pretty clear Velaro D for Eurostar is the same as Velaro D for ICE, the difference being 2x 8 car joined vs a single 16 formation.. when they launched their publicity just a few days later…

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-deutsche-bahn-siemens/deutsche-bahns-cross-channel-train-bid-gets-backing-idUKTRE69I56B20101019
 

 

 

 

 

I'm only changing history if you believe the RG.  And tell me about this expanded route network.  You mean a couple of trains a day to Amsterdam? 

So you're saying that they scrapped the majority of the 373 power cars when they were in perfectly serviceable condition?  That really makes economic sense.  Trust me the PCs were knackered.  There were plenty of other cheaper ways of expanding the fleet if retaining all of the 373s was economically sensible.  Buy a handful of 374s, do a swap around with SNCF's internal 373s, use the NoL sets.  But no, they did the one thing that makes absolutely no sense at all if all of the 373s had a low cost long term future.  Of course they did.    

I've had a few trips on the line now and have noticed a little quirk.  On the JLE the position the train stops relative to the PEDs varies slightly from train to train and station to station.  On the EL it appears to be always the same position which is with the centre of the train doors about 150mm short of the centre of the PEDs.  Every journey I've done it's been the same at every station.  It might just be a coincidence but I also noticed it on one of the youtube videos too.  I wonder if it will start to vary as time goes on? 

Not at all important but the sort of trivia I notice.

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I doubt axle loads are any different, unless the seats DB were using in its class 407’s were made of much tougher stuff than they put in the class 374’s.

 

They are at the end of the day a basically identical shell off the same production line, tailoured to suit its customer.

 

I have my own conclusions on this “deal”, but best stick to known events…

All we can derive is…

1. Eurostar issues tender for Germanic services.

2. DB suddenly announces a competing London plan using Siemens Velaro

3. Eurostar suddenly / unexpectedly buys Siemens not Alsthom… making little sense of an under utilized Alsthom fleet, and meaning 2 traction modes to support, one of which is not UK gauge compatible, removing diversion options, and requires changes/sign off  to existing tunnel procedures.

4. Siemens delivers rapidly, lots of Alsthom fuss over the deal, but Franco owned Eurostar gets its Velaro 374’s into relatively trouble free service.

5. DB has lots of issues getting their Velaro channel tunnel spec approved, which drags until the last Velaro Channel Tunnel spec 374 is delivered to Eurostar… though Service in Belgium / Holland is trouble free, for both DB and Eurostar.

6. Deal done and delivered…

7. Eurostar suddenly drops Germany and DB drops London

8. Eurostar now runs Siemens kit in France

9. DB gets a free Velaro from Siemens because of all its “issues”.

10. Status quo of non-compete remains on German - UK services.

The 373 power cars were by and large, to use a technical expression, totally knackered, plus the build quality wasn't great to start with.  For instance, I was fortunate enough to have some cab rides back in the day when they weren't that old and recall a torrential downpour in northern France which resulted in water pouring in through the roof of the equipment compartment.  In short the whole lot needed very extensive and extremely expensive heavy overhauls to be able to continue much longer.  It was decided the money would be better spent on a replacement fleet with a handful of 373s overhauled to provide reserve capacity and the ability to run to some destinations where 374s didn't have, or were unlikely to get, approval.

Eurostar's relationship with Alstom didn't alter anything with respect to the 373s because their condition meant something needed to be done about them anyway, be that total replacement, heavy overhaul or a combination of the two.  Eurostar, unsurprisingly, went for the lowest whole lifetime cost option.  Alstom, possibly complacent as a result of their (at the time) unofficial SNCF favoured TGV supplier come what may status, offered a more expensive package.   

21 minutes ago, icn said:

 

Does Germany's safety record have anything to do with the trains, or is it rather the signalling systems? If the latter, then that's a strawman argument. Bear in mind that UK trains go on fire all the time.

Yes it's definitely a straw man argument because signalling systems/signallers  have never ever caused collisions between trains or caused derailments have they?

What difference does it make what the cause is?  If two trains collide at a given speed the effect is the same no matter what was responsible for that collision.

19 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Thanks for that, I had not found that page before. Now my reading of it tells me that both elderly and disabled Freedom passes are valid to Reading, albeit the elderly have to wait till after 09:00. It is only the 60+ card that stops at West Drayton.

Regards

Ok - well you live and learn.  My fault for believing what the help desk told me about TfL rail services!  I tend not to look at the TfL validity maps because I find them pretty useless as they are very colour blind unfriendly and TfL have repeatedly refused to change them despite many requests.

3 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

 

It won't explode like you're thinking it will...

 

I was thinking more of it burning than exploding.  Either way it's potentially a moot point because rumour has it that there isn't much industry interest in it here.

20 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Could you explain how that comes about and where the info is available, apart from the link given by 'Engineer' above, please.

Blimey, I'll try. 

There are either 2 or 3 types of Freedom Pass depending on how you define the term.  There is the Disabled Freedom Pass, the Elderly Freedom Pass plus the Oyster 60+ Photocard, which isn't officially categorised by TfL as a Freedom Pass but when you touch in on a bus for example the display says "Freedom Pass" and in practice it is exactly the same as the Elderly Freedom Pass in terms of validity. 

In summary the validity is:

All 3 are valid on non-TfL rail services out to Zone 6 but not before 0930 M-F. 

The Disabled Freedom Pass is valid on all TfL services at any time. 

The Elderly Freedom Pass and 60+ Photocard are not valid on TfL services before 0900 M-F, and not valid beyond Zone 6 on TfL rail services except to Watford Jn via the DC line.

*There are a handful of cases which are different such as Chiltern to Amersham, C2C to Upminster and validity to Dartford but the above is generally true.

So on my earlier example about different validities to Reading: My wife has a Disabled Freedom Pass so can travel to Reading on the Elizabeth line whenever she likes.  I have an Elderly Freedom Pass so I can't use the Elizabeth line beyond West Drayton (Zone 6 boundary) and I can't use the Elizabeth line before 0900 M-F.

Info here:

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel

Prior to the financial spat between the Mayor and the Government, the Elderly Freedom Pass and 60+ pass were valid on TfL services at any time although the zone restriction was the same as it is now.  The morning time restriction is as a result of the bailout, or if you like the Government has singled out and specifically penalised the elderly in London over TfL's funding shortfall, which, as I alluded to earlier, hasn't exactly gone down very well.

EDIT.  It seems I was wrong about the Zone 6 restriction on Elderly Freedom Pass.  The time restrictions are right though.

1 hour ago, icn said:

Germany already has Hydrogen trains and they are no more concerned about it than diesel or other liquid-fuel trains. Bear in mind that a hydrogen train is likely much less explosive than say a tank wagon full of diesel (never mind a train of such wagons). In fact some experts seem to say hydrogen vehicles are safer than petrol/diesel...

 

Nay, I think the safety aspect is a distraction. Hydrogen supply/production and experience with the technology seem like the real concerns.

I know Germany has hydrogen trains and isn't bothered about it.  Germany also doesn't have an especially stellar rail safety record either.  Imo a hydrogen fire on a train is inevitable; its just a matter of when.

Anyway let's start by not picking and mixing situations.  I'm talking about hydrogen powered passenger trains as nobody, so far as I am aware, believes hydrogen has any relevance to the propulsion of freight trains.  That means tank wagons and petrol are irrelevant. 

I did do chemistry at school but that was half a century ago and I've forgotten almost all of it but I believe if faced with a choice of leaking high pressure hydrogen or leaking diesel fuel, most people would opt for the latter.  Are these "experts" talking about road vehicles per chance?  If so they probably haven't considered the huge amount of energy in many rail mishaps.  Would you really bet the farm on hydrogen vessels and their associated pipework surviving wholly intact from some of the types of incidents we've seen in recent years?  I don't think I would and if it doesn't then you're looking at an almost guaranteed inferno.

Do I detect in this announcement the first signs that the "engineering is too difficult" contagion which is plaguing England and Wales is now spreading to Scotland?  This whole thing smacks of wanting to avoid at any costs coming up with a plan to tackle the gargantuan elephant in the room which spans the Firth of Forth.  I speak as someone who has a feeling that BEMUs are going to prove to be a very expensive mistake (assuming any actually get delivered).  

On 02/06/2022 at 18:30, phil-b259 said:

 

Because the London Mayor is prepared to spend London taxpayers council tax cash on journeys outside the capital.

 

Thats why the freedom passes are only valid on TfL rail services and not GWR - with the Elizabeth line the GLA are effectively paying TfL  and as both are effectively the same organisation its very easy to effectively write off the missing fare revenue and does not involve the DfT / HM Treasury

 

Senior Railcards by contrast are a DfT regulated product and as such the rules around them are set by them / HM treasury. Any extension of them into TfL proper would no require TfL to be compensated for lost revenue (and the same would be true in reverse no doubt if TfL tried to get Freedom passes accepted by GWR).

 

Given the open hostility from this Government towards the mayor and TfL (largely driven by Londoners having the nerve to elect the 'wrong' colour party to office it has to be said) and the way the Pandemic has devastated TfL finances there is zero appetite for either side to come to a compromise.

 

As such I wouldn't hold out much hope complaining to your Westminster MP - joined up public transport requires coordination and cooperation between state entities - not political vendettas based on the 'wrong' party being in control or the slavish following of the 'free market competition is best' doctrine so beloved by the blue party.

"Freedom pass" is a collective term like "Railrovers" and they don't all have the same validity.  For example both my wife and I have Freedom passes; my wife's is valid all the way to Reading whereas mine is only valid as far as West Drayton.

In a wider context there is quite a lot of anger in London about the restrictions placed on some Freedom Passes as a condition of the various interim financial settlements.  It's a different kind of levelling up; depriving people in the capital of something they've enjoyed for many years.  The irony being that those most affected coincide with the demographic in London historically most likely to vote Tory.  In short, a pointless p*****g contest between regional and central Government where everybody loses.

On 04/06/2022 at 10:12, frobisher said:

 

Hydrogen is perfectly feasible and economical in areas where there is an excess of electrical production relative to demand/ability to export to the grid which pretty much describes the Highlands and Islands and where there is plenty of ongoing research on the matter.

Am I the only one who is concerned about the safety of hydrogen in a derailment or collision? 

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Slightly off topic, Poll Tax demos and Greenham Common ladies.

Not my definition of national infrastructure projects.  And anyway "Greenham Common ladies" made precisely no difference whatsoever.  The missiles were removed from there because Reagan and Gorbachev signed a treaty not because of anything protesters did.  

Oh and talking of protestors, I was reminded by a piece in a recent Modern Railways that in the 1970s a number of influential French organisations and commentators condemned the plans to build the first LGV line as "a waste of money", "a vanity project" and "a white elephant".  Any of that sound familiar at all?  I wonder if they still think that now?  Probably not would be my guess.   

23 hours ago, DK123GWR said:

Nobody is getting rich from protesting. Protest is a political tactic used by the side with less resources against a more powerful group. If I had enough money to 'rent a riot' (which would be a quite substantial amount - everyone can earn the minimum wage, so I would have to pay at least that plus a premium for the risks involved to protestors multiplied by the number of people I hire) and I wanted political influence, I would spend that money on PR campaigns and lobbying. It would be far more cost effective. The only reason that you would protest is because you don't have the money or social connections for any other option. I think it's therefore reasonable to assume that most protestors are there because they really believe in the cause.*

It may be the case that people who are already wealthy and well-educated are more likely to be regular protestors, but this is because they are able to support themselves on a reduced (or no) income, so they are able to dedicate their time to supporting causes they believe in. This option simply isn't available to people on the poverty line, no matter how strongly they believe in something, because they need to work a full-time job (or several jobs) just to keep themselves alive.

 

 

 

*Yes, there are some people who are thugs out to cause trouble, but that shouldn't be used to discredit the majority who are sincere about their intentions, just as the fact that there are some thugs who go out to cause trouble at football matches shouldn't be used to discredit regular supporters.

Which makes sense. If you are a protest group trying to punch above your weight in terms of economic and social resources then you need to stay in the headlines. In reality, most people aren't active citizens so the only way that you can get their attention is by disrupting something they're interested in, whether that's traffic, a football match, or the jubilee. A group whose intention is to run a sustained campaign of civil disobedience until sufficient action is taken to address their concerns would be failing if it didn't show up for an event as big as this.

Perhaps you'd enlighten us by citing a single example where these small groups of seemingly the same characters have actually stopped a national infrastructure project on which construction has started.  If there are any at all then it will be a very small list which brings futile to mind.  Their connection with facts is also generally very tentative.  I've never understood how annoying and inconveniencing everybody else does anything but alienate the wider public to whatever their cause is.  A green lobby that opposes electric railways tells me all I need to know about these people.

On 31/05/2022 at 20:37, Gwiwer said:

Among points of interest here are the numerous crossovers and connections.  In BR days those nearer the camera would have seen more use than they do today.  The two tracks on the right are the "Wall of Death" to Sutton which these days is almost the exclusive preserve of Thameslink.  Since the trams came to Wimbledon that route has only a single platform at the station for a service of four trains hourly which is perfectly adequate under normal circumstances.  Bear in mind, however, that this is part of a long terminal loop.  Sutton is the stand point with several minutes booked for all trains at the platforms there but a late runner via Tooting can affect platforming at Wimbledon for trains arriving from Sutton and vice-versa.  

 

What isn't so well-known is that Thameslink has the ability to shunt out a defective train here.  Either of the two tracks can be used as a siding with trains "looped" around using the other track and one or more of the crossovers.  The rust on most of those shows that this is not a regular event but I have travelled on the route a couple of times when the train departed towards Sutton "wrong line" as far as the "left-to-right" crossover in the foreground and have also arrived from Sutton "wrong line" with the train using the crossover part-visible at the bottom edge.  On no occasion was any other train berthed so these might be booked moves for route-knowledge or signalling refreshers.  Or some other problem might have existed unknown to me.  

 

The well-used shiny crossovers are the route of the daily Tolworth freights which come off the Chessington branch at Raynes Park, cross to the Up Main Fast on which the class 455 is seen and then via a ladder of crossovers to the Tooting route.  The Sutton to Wimbledon Depot workings which were once a regular event in BR days no longer run meaning the Thameslink-to-Down Main Slow crossover (beneath the gantry) is very seldom used although those beyond are in daily use for a variety of moves.  

 

The 455 is also showing Hampton Court on the rear destination blind meaning there is a good chance the train has originated from there.  It would be unusual for such a train to be on the fast line (they are booked all stations and require the slow line) unless engineering work had closed the booked line or the train had come up fast due to late running and skipped stops.  It is signalled into platform 5  (Up Main Slow) at the station however.  Even those suburban trains not booked to call at Raynes Park normally come up the UMS not UMF.  

In practice though Thameslink very rarely (if ever) reverse on the running lines at Wimbledon West.  They almost always reverse in platform 9 even if by doing so it delays another service.  In 319 days the excuse was that a driver couldn't change ends on an 8 car without going onto the ballast.  There is no such excuse for 700s but they still do it in the platform.

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Bank systems are not safety critical like transport systems but they most certainly are time critical.  Various types of transactions have to meet deadlines and it can cost a lot of money if messages are not complete by cut-off points.  Prolonged loss of service can put the whole business in jeopardy.

 

I worked for an American bank which had multiple datacentres on different storeys of a skyscraper.  There were  generators on the roof, stanbdy batteries in the basement and power and data cables running up and down betwen floors in utility shafts.  Plenty of hardware redundancy for all the systems but all in the one building.  We in the UK weren't involved ourselves of course but one day a faulty dishwasher by a lift shaft half way up the tower block started a relatively minor fire triggering sprinklers (required by state law).  Nobody was injured but most of the IT contingency planning people got sacked because the fire & water damage destroyed numerous power and data cables in the shaft, rendering backup facilities useless.  The ATM network was offline for more than 24 hours stimulating a major run on the bank, and international transactions failed to be settled.  Senior management had to start flying electricians in from as far afield as Florida to fix the various systems and networks because they couldn't find enough people in New York.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by real time and non-time critical.  Obviously if a bank goes off line for several hours or days that is a major business problem but if a transaction gets delayed by a few seconds or a few minutes or even a couple of hours in some cases it might cause some inconvenience, it might even cost the bank money and/or reputational damage but it is unlikely to generate a lasting, serious, life threatening or life changing situation.  By contrast if a military defence system goes off line for even a few minutes the consequences could be catastrophic for the country.  I've done backup systems for both and they are definitely not the same.

In the case of railway signalling, stale data is largely useless; in the case of a bank, transactions are still generally valid and able to be processed some time after they were created.  That's the distinction I draw.   

On 23/05/2022 at 18:20, phil-b259 said:

Furthermore signallers workstations are 'hard coded' running dedicated processors and for the most part CANNOT work any other area than the area with which they have been programmed - for this to change you require the wholesale change processor cards, fiddle with the equipment housing address settings etc to and then there is the little matter of getting telecoms to re-organise the telecoms networks so that the workstation is talking to the interlocking.

That doesn't actually matter because if you wanted to make provision for ROC A to be able to take over ROC B then you'd need a set of standby workstations anyway for ROC B's area as you'd still need ROC A's own area workstations to be operational. 

However, overall the whole idea is a non-starter unless you want to spend very, very serious amounts of money, and that's assuming you design it in from the start; the cost becomes stratospheric if you try to bolt it on afterwards.  The comparison with banks etc is not really valid as real time safety critical control of distributed specialist hardware using bespoke workstations is a whole different ball game to non-time critical transactional processing.  I've done system design for disaster backup for both in my career and they are chalk and cheese.

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

However waste is still among us…

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

tactic admission that we cant afford life as it used to be, before Austerity, Brexit and Covid, despite the likelihood that all that debt will be shovelled off into multi-decades of long term finance.. short and medium term we are still broke too.

However waste is still among us…

I just returned home today on a Victoria to Sutton express… 10 coaches. (2x class 377/7)…  2 stops.. Clapham and Carshalton… empty train, wizzed past Balham, both Mitchams and Hackbridge… no wonder I had a full 5 car set entirely to myself, and perhaps a handful in the other set.

 

I have to wonder what was behind this regular express service today, not that i’m complaining, it was running well early, but cant be good for revenue skipping out most of the stops on a short shuttle like this.

 

They've just withdrawn 46 x 4 car units, which is conspicuously more than most operators.  It seems to me you're only going to be happy when every train has its length tailored to the number of passengers on offer.  I travelled on an Epsom - London Bridge service just after the morning peak last Wednesday, 10 cars and very well filled; 8 cars would have just sufficed but 10 wasn't a massive over provision.  The return working had very few passengers.  How do you know the train you travelled on didn't have high loadings earlier in its diagram or would have later?  Short answer is you don't. 

The metro timetable has been cut, some circuits have had their length reduced (eg LB - East Croydon from 8 to 5), others have not however once the 377/3s go down to the coast I'm expecting 10 car diagrams to be few and far between and metro to be predominantly 4, 5 and 8.  I also expect overcrowding on the busier sections (eg inbound via Norbury and via Crystal Palace). 

I saw a report the other day that TfL thinking had been the Elizabeth line would be at full load 2 - 3 years after opening but due to Covid et al that had been revised to 3 - 5 years.  I also saw a report that forecast demand for London office space had been revised up.  That suggests to me a potential rising trajectory for peak passenger numbers in the next decade and decisions taken in haste now about stock requirements could come back to haunt the railway in future.   

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

They don't play nicely with the red ones though.  Different traction kit these days.  

The traction kit isn't the reason.  Whilst the SWT 455s re-tractioning programme was in progress,  modified units worked in multiple with unmodified units for quite a while.  It's other stuff like the door controls, CIS etc which would need altering.  

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

I've always been fascinated how obsessive some commuters become about this to the extent of "cutting off their nose to spite their face".  Jubilee line to Canary Wharf is a particular example; seemingly everyone tried to be at the West End of the train because despite 3 (or 4?) sets of escalators at CW, the West End ones were nearer the exit.  It often resulted in them queueing to get on the 3rd or 4th train from Waterloo, whereas if they'd gone mid-platform, they'd be on the 1st or 2nd.

Likewise, the people who would crowd into the middle 4 carriages of my regular 12-car train home from Waterloo, because it was closest to the stairs at Surbiton.  There were so many seats free further forward, but I bet these people all moaned how they paid so much money for their season tickets and could never get a seat on the train......

I was the exception that proves the rule when I worked at Canary Wharf, my office was on Upper Bank St so I used the east exit at CW and so went for the front of EB trains!