Poggy1165

I have just remembered that about my person I have the 1896 L&Y classification of goods trains book. (A volume that I keep meaning to hand over to the L&Y Archivist as it really should be with their archives.)

Anyway, it does mention Midland trains over the L&Y at some length. (And indeed other companies trains, but that's beside the point.) On the specific question of Liverpool traffic northwards we have:

3-50 am M (Mondays excepted?) Carlisle to Liverpool Conveys through traffic for Blackburn and Lostock Hall and exchange thereat. Inspector Evans (Hellifield) must wire to Mr Heaton (Clitheroe) and to Loco Department Lower Darwen, when this train requires a bank engine and the Clitheroe No 1 pilot must bank it. Stops at Aintree Junction to leave Liverpool L&Y traffic.  The departure of this train must be wired from Hellifield to Inspector Gill (Aintree Sorting Sidings) together with the number of wagons it has on for Liverpool (L&Y). Lostock Hall must also wire to Inspector Gill (Aintree Sorting Sidings) the time the train passes there.

1-40 am Hellifield to Huskisson. Conveys through traffic and traffic for Lostock Hall and exchange thereat. Stops when required to leave cattle traffic at Clitheroe and Whalley. Detaches Liverpool fish at Ormskirk to go forward by first passenger train. Stops at Aintree Junction to leave Liverpool (L&Y) traffic; and to attach, when required, traffic ex Silcock's Mill for Midland local stations. Runs on Sunday and stops at Blackburn for traffic purposes. The departure of this train must be wired daily from Hellifield to Inspector Gill (Aintree Sorting Sidings) together with the number of wagons it has on for Liverpool (L&Y). Lostock Hall must also wire to Inspector Gill (Aintree Sorting Sidings) the time the train passes. Stops at Blackburn on TuO to detach traffic.

7-45 pm Huskisson to Carlisle. Conveys traffic for beyond Hellifield only. Stops at Aintree Junction to attach loaded traffic for Midland line only. Not to exceed 32 wagons as far as Lostock Hall.  Attaches Scotch (sic) empties at Blackburn in addition to loaded traffic on Saturdays.

11-30 pm Huskisson to Carlisle. Conveys traffic for beyond Hellifield only. Stops at Aintree Junction to detach empties for Liverpool (L&Y) and to attach traffic for Midland line. Starts 11-35 pm on Saturdays.

That's all she wrote, but it does give us a good idea as to routing, which was not by the CLC. In passing, I should mention that Midland trains to Carlisle etc. from Ancoats were more frequent than the Liverpool trains. 

Next one up will  be a diagram 17 van from a Connoisseur Models kit. This I can only describe as a cursed kit. Not that I am having a go at Jim's kit, you understand. The proof in the pudding is that I had previously built one without the slightest trouble. Let me explain:

First, while I was building it we had one of our periodic major tidies. Guests were coming, or something. The castings got put "somewhere safe". Needless to say, when I returned to the job the castings could not be found. Never mind, I thought, they'll turn up.

Months later I still couldn't find them, so I had to write a grovelling letter to Jim asking to buy replacements. Never mind, I thought, the originals will turn up and they'll be useful for scratch-building. Of course, they are "somewhere safe" to this day.

So I got the thing substantially complete. I just needed to file/cut way part of the roof to make it fit. But the model, stood on the layout 54" above ground decided to fall off. One of the main soldered joints split open and in despair I just left it - until now.

For some reason, repairing that joint has been one of the hardest soldering jobs I have ever done. Perhaps I am out of practice. Anyway, at length it was fixed, and so were one or two minor repairs. I just need to replace a brake lever guide which has vanished into thin air somewhere along the line.

So all that remains is to cut away the necessary bits of roof, fit the buffers and paint and letter it, and it will be complete. As long as I don't drop it onto concrete, and always assuming the fairies don't steal it overnight.

Photo soon - I hope!

This is a diagram 5 three planker, one of the longer GC examples, 18' 5" over headstocks.

It is built from a GP kit, with nickel-silver chassis and a resin body. It has lain about substantially complete for (er) years, but my recent burst of energy following on from the receipt of proper transfers and numberplates persuaded me to complete it.

To my mind, the chassis is over-engineered for such a simple model, but I did manage to solder it together, which means that your cat probably could if it set its mind to the job. The most cursory glance will reveal that the brake gear is incomplete due to the components being put in that well-know location "somewhere safe". It will not be much of a job to finish it off when they turn up.

I decided to add the label clip to the side, and was quite pleased with myself until I checked the prototype photo and saw that it and the "10 Tons" should be on the bottom plank, not the middle. The moral there is never work from memory. It is unlikely that it will annoy me sufficiently to change it now. The photo is of a different wagon, so maybe details varied anyway! Who knows?

The body is secured to the chassis by four rather prominent bolts. Now I could countersink them, and maybe disguise them a bit that way, but I think on balance a fixed load is more likely. Pipes, perhaps? Something quite long, anyway.

According to the GC diagram book, the LDEC van of the type in question was 16' 1" over headstocks. 

Best bet, if you can find one, is a working time table. The Midland certainly ran goods trains into Liverpool, and the chances are they went from there over the CLC. The question is, where did the Midland exchange traffic with the L&Y?  My guess is Philips Park, which the Midland could reach via Glazebrook, Stockport, and Ashburys. Bit roundabout, but the old companies didn't care about that, certainly not for goods. 

GCR diagram 145 was actually a converted cattle wagon (GCR diagram 146) designed to carry 9 tons. I am about 99% certain that the conversions were done in LDEC days, and it comprised altering the doors and boarding up the open upper parts of the side. What I do not know is what GER diagram, if any, the diag 146 cattle wagons were based on. Presumably the LDEC found it had more cattle wagons than traffic required. There were 20 conversions, assuming none had been withdrawn by 1914.

I have only ever seen two photos. One of a cattle wagon in GCR condition is in a private collection (not mine) and the photo showed that it was fitted with the typical GCR ownership and number plates as per the "native" cattle wagons. The van conversion appears in the background of a photo of a LDEC loco (not sure where this was published off hand, but it is published) but too small to make out any great detail.

NRM York does have drawings of both, but they ain't cheap!

The LDEC wagons were new, but built to GER designs. By private companies.  At least, many were. I cannot swear it is literally true of every single diagram, one would have to have an intimate knowledge of GER wagon stock to be sure.  You just have to be careful as to which diagram was copied - for example I once bought a GER bolster kit thinking it was the same, but when I checked I found it was quite significantly different. One problem is that very few photos exist of LDEC wagons in any condition, and in GC condition they are "hard to find". The GC livery I have put on the van is therefore a "best guess". It possible that the "GC" might have been on the lower panels. Only ever seen one photo of these vans and the van in question was in LDEC livery. 

The LDEC (like the GCR) had a number of mineral wagons on hire in its livery. Strictly PO wagons. One of these is illustrated in the Ince wagon book published by the HMRS.

The LDEC did have some second-hand 4 wheel coaches of GER origin. These were used on miners' trains - I believe they survived into GCR days but exactly when they were withdrawn I do not know. 

Same wagon seen from above. I have tried to give the impression of a "deck" that has seen a fair bit of use. But maybe it should be a tad darker?

This bolster wagon is one of the very first I successfully soldered together from a brass kit by R&E, circa 1992. It was beginning to show its age so it went into shops for renovation.

1. A brake lever guide had to be replaced, as it had fallen off.

2. The original staunchions, which were white metal and more the size of lamp posts, were mercilessly hacked off and replaced by much superior equivalents kindly donated by Airnimal of this parish. This was a massive improvement in itself.

3. Fixing attachments were added to the bolsters. These are crude but 100% better than what was there before - nothing!

4. Bits of flaking paint received touch-ups. 

5. OTW transfers for tonnage and tare replaced my previous hand lettering. (My hand lettering back in 1992 was better than it is now, but it was still inferior to the transfers.)

6. Intentio number plate added.

It still isn't exactly York Museum standard, but the overall improvement is significant and it is now fit to be seen again.

A sudden burst of energy and enthusiasm has set me to work on some of the models I have lying about in various stages of completion.

This ex-LDEC van was made up many years ago from a Meteor GER kit, with some mild modification. It has a resin body. Unfortunately, the paint job I did on it was shocking, even  by my standards, but as there was no rich supply of alternative transfers an upgrade was difficult and the van was kept in the background.

Now it has been repainted. Suitable transfers are now freely available from Old Time Workshop, and the improvement in appearance is massive. I have also put on a new numberplate provided by Intentio. The "to carry" plate was made for me by Guilplates a few years back - it is probably a tad overscale, but it still looks OK.

The paint is called Plastikote and I got it from an art shop in a spray can. Interestingly, it looks lighter in natural light, and in this photo, than it does in the house. 

Those Colin Ashby kits were quite wonderful and it's a pity the range was lost. I would pay handsomely for a 7mm scale equivalent!

I'm fairly sure that if you wanted to use another company's facilities (or engine) you were expected to pay. Of course there were sometimes what might be called "special arrangements" where one thing was swapped for another, but these would be quite individual.

For example there was usually a standing instruction that if a foreign engine used your water column the fact had to be noted so the aforesaid foreign company could be charged. 

In the first volume of Tatlow's LNER Wagons, there is a photo of a wagon quite similar to this, built for the CLC. It does not have a floor. (The angle is just sufficient to make this clear.) All that is visible is a network of body pieces not unlike the above photo. What is not stated is whether the vehicle was to an MR design. It was built by a private contractor, Craven's of Sheffield, in 1909. (Page 151.)

Don't know if this much help, but it does suggest an absence of floor is quite possible.

This is great stuff, thank you all. It looks to me as if I could get away with fine ballast, as long as it was laid with some care. And with some suitable painting/weathering.

To explain, I have it in mind to "lose" a river under a road bridge, but then it dawned on me that I had no idea what the road surface would look like.

10 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Macadam is what you are looking for. Good articles on line.

Thanks for this. I shall do some searching.

Bit of an odd question this, so excuse me.

Does anyone know how a typical country road would be surfaced prior to WW1? I know tarmac was invented way before this, but somehow it seems too "modern" for a byway. (I bear in mind that Tarmac wagons seem only to have become common post-1923.)

OTOH I really can't imagine them laying stone setts as would be done in town.

The kind of road I have in mind is a mere minor thoroughfare, perhaps mainly used by farm carts, cattle being driven for milking, and maybe the local squire's car - not the A1!

Hope it isn't a silly question, but how do you secure brake lever guides to the wagon? I find superglue is fine at first but is not reliable long-term. 

According to the latest Gauge O Guild Gazette, the chap behind this is now operating as "indigo Works".

The email is is stated to be: indigoworks@btinternet.com

We are not told whether the whole range is available so you will need to enquire.

Current Gazette online at https://www.gaugeoguild.com/secured/gazette_archive/Vol21-3/offline/download.pdf if you want to read the full SP and snail mail address.

All I really remember about those WDs is that they had a very distinctive sound - as if they were falling apart. As a young lad I found the arrival of one of these things a great disappointment, but now, looking back, I wish I had shown more interest at the time.

One big change has certainly been shopping habits. My grandmother would shop three or four times a week, going like a honey bee from one shop to another. There were a number of specialist shops - for example, I remember one that sold only biscuits. That I now find hard to imagine. She did this on her feet, in all weathers, carrying quite heavy bags, and the shops pretty well charged what they liked, as there was little competition.

Now women (and without being sexist it is mainly women) simply do not have the time to do that - even if they had the inclination - because most of them, under the age of 66, are too busy slogging their guts out earning the necessary crust. So much easier just to go to the supermarket, where everything is available in one place, and where there is a degree of choice that my grandmother - or even women of her time who were considerably richer - could not have dreamed of. In fact, you can just order the whole lot on the internet and have it delivered to the door for a modest charge. 

Remember also - and this directly impacted on model railways - there was the scandalous concept of retail price maintenance. This meant that if the manufacturer said a thing cost £5, it could not be sold for less. Hard to believe in an age of discounting, when we can go on the computer and look for the best price. 

Would I reverse either of these changes? Would I heck as like. I do miss the trolleybuses though. They were cool.

Extremely informative and interesting. Thank you. There is usually a logic to these things, but often it is not obvious. 

I suppose another factor in later years might have been the increasing difficulty in obtaining quality wood at an affordable price. One reason why some railways made great use of concrete and or steel for signal posts. 

On 02/05/2020 at 18:56, James Harrison said:

The difficulty is that much as I'd like a loco release road, it would add an extra foot or so to the length (for the pointwork on the platform roads) and limit me to shorter trains.  I'm reckoning on four carriages plus loco plus van for my mainline rakes and that would be have to be reduced to three carriages plus loco plus van.  Plus I'd then need to find somewhere for a carriage siding or two. 

I would suggest that not having a loco release road gives you an excellent excuse for deploying a pilot, while the central road can be a very useful storage road for parcels vans, strengtheners, and the like. 

Personally - this is my quirky nature - I would have an arrival and a departure side, shunt stock between the two as required, and thereby greatly simplify the approach trackwork. Pre-group railways quite often arranged matters like this. If you are going to have a standing pilot you might as well make sure there's plenty for it to do.

Having said all that, at Manchester London Road - a very cramped and busy location on the GC side - the GC and its successors were not above working empty stock in with a pilot engine up front and the train engine at the back, ready to go. They weren't above "stacking" local trains at the platforms either, but you won't have space for that I shouldn't think. That was a good example, BTW, of a terminus that in its original form had central roads used principally for storing stock. 

Very sorry to lose Adrian, a great bloke with vast knowledge. It was too bad some people objected to his habit of pointing out faults in commercial models - I always appreciate such knowledge even if I don't always worry about the finer questions.

I loved his wagon kits, which were never less than very good castings. Also greatly miss his vast stock of bits and pieces - you just cannot get this stuff now, and if you haven't got the talent/equipment/knowledge to make it yourself life gets awkward.

So RIP Adrian, and thanks. I never regretted a purchase I made from you, not once.

I remember the 1950s and 60s very well, and as far as I am concerned, most aspects were ghastly. The present isn't perfect (I could write a flipping book about stuff I would like to change) but on balance I think life is better. Compared to my grandparents, I live like a king. On the specific topic of food, I don't think there's an argument, I really don't. Of course, if some people abuse the choice available to them - wider than it has ever been in human history - that is their problem, but it's a consequence of freedom. I wouldn't want to live in a country where people were told what to eat "for their own good".  Anyone who wishes who has something like a reasonable income can eat a healthy diet, and the choice is amazing. 

If you want another example of something that has changed for the better - schools. The one I went to was barbaric, although it would have been an excellent training-ground for anyone contemplating a life in Strangeways. Children of today's generation nearly all want to go to school, and are really missing the current absence of it. I should have thought that I had died and gone to heaven.

School dinners - ye gods! My school had the miraculous ability to impart a taste to potatoes that literally made me want to retch. How they achieved this I have no idea, but it put me off eating potatoes - bar chips - for years. Once I got married, my wife gradually weaned them back onto them, but it took me a while to accept that potatoes didn't necessarily make me want to spew.

At home "luxury" meals - that is what my mother set before honoured guests, and which she would have set before the Queen had HMQ ever visited Gorton - were tinned salmon (always "potted" that is, with added breadcrumbs to make it go further) or chicken, in those days a dish for high days and holidays only. 

I think people tend to go on about the "old days" with rose-coloured spectacles. It was mostly absolutely crap. OK, we had steam locos and trolleybuses and it was only 25p for an adult to get into Maine Road. But against that, the food was generally appalling and at present we enjoy far higher quality, a much wider choice, and generally speaking, lower prices in real terms.