MUTTLEY

On 29/03/2023 at 13:13, bécasse said:

Sorry, that is nonsense. The detailed history of the 350hp shunters (they weren't all 08s) is a minefield but even in general terms only 13000-13259 plus 13298-13315 were ever black and they would have all been painted plain green at their first (post summer 1956) overhaul, only retaining the 1949 BR totem if that overhaul was before December 1956. Wasp stripes were applied at overhauls (and only at overhauls) from March 1960 while electrification flashes were applied from the summer of that year (but at depots as well as at overhauls so they at least appeared fleet-wide very quickly). Historically, therefore, a loco cannot have had wasp stripes and still been black, although dirty green locos sometimes appeared to be black when photographed in colour - there is an excellent example of this on page 70 of the November 2022 Model Rail where D3319 is alleged to be black despite having been delivered in green; ironically the article is titled Know your liveries!

 

There are significant features (notably the lack of a RH vacuum-exhauster box and vertical handrails on side panels) on these Dapol models which would rule out any number before 13245, and there are other detailed features (for example, windscreen wiper motor box on cab sides and the "kinked" lighting conduit on the cab back) which are inappropriate but are, at least, readily correctable.

 

Finally, although there do seem to have been Dapol models which display the correct painted number style, the two models illustrated appear to bear a style which was applied to only a single loco D3170, all other locos having either a small D or a condensed font instead of Gill Sans (which resulted from the space on the cab side being too narrow to take a full size D number in Gill Sans unless there was a 1 in the number).

 

The blue model is potentially the most correct, it would require the addition of windscreen wipers (which were a common but not universal retro-fit), the correct condensed style of painted number (either with or without the D, dropped post-1968) and correction of the route of the top light conduit on the cab back - all fairly simple alterations. It would also be necessary to avoid locos delivered to the Western or Southern Regions which had different lamp iron arrangements.

 

The Dapol models bear all the hallmarks of having been based on locos in preservation whose detailed rendering is rarely precisely correct.

 

Incidentally, if anyone thinks that I am running down Dapol unfairly, I would point out that both Hornby and Bachmann have made similar errors in 4mm scale, with no Hornby model precisely replicating any one of the huge 350hp shunter class and most Bachmann ones being wrong too. As I said before, the prototype class is a minefield - they may all look alike but .............

On 29/03/2023 at 13:13, bécasse said:

Sorry, that is nonsense. The detailed history of the 350hp shunters (they weren't all 08s) is a minefield but even in general terms only 13000-13259 plus 13298-13315 were ever black and they would have all been painted plain green at their first (post summer 1956) overhaul, only retaining the 1949 BR totem if that overhaul was before December 1956. Wasp stripes were applied at overhauls (and only at overhauls) from March 1960 while electrification flashes were applied from the summer of that year (but at depots as well as at overhauls so they at least appeared fleet-wide very quickly). Historically, therefore, a loco cannot have had wasp stripes and still been black, although dirty green locos sometimes appeared to be black when photographed in colour - there is an excellent example of this on page 70 of the November 2022 Model Rail where D3319 is alleged to be black despite having been delivered in green; ironically the article is titled Know your liveries!

 

There are significant features (notably the lack of a RH vacuum-exhauster box and vertical handrails on side panels) on these Dapol models which would rule out any number before 13245, and there are other detailed features (for example, windscreen wiper motor box on cab sides and the "kinked" lighting conduit on the cab back) which are inappropriate but are, at least, readily correctable.

 

Finally, although there do seem to have been Dapol models which display the correct painted number style, the two models illustrated appear to bear a style which was applied to only a single loco D3170, all other locos having either a small D or a condensed font instead of Gill Sans (which resulted from the space on the cab side being too narrow to take a full size D number in Gill Sans unless there was a 1 in the number).

 

The blue model is potentially the most correct, it would require the addition of windscreen wipers (which were a common but not universal retro-fit), the correct condensed style of painted number (either with or without the D, dropped post-1968) and correction of the route of the top light conduit on the cab back - all fairly simple alterations. It would also be necessary to avoid locos delivered to the Western or Southern Regions which had different lamp iron arrangements.

 

The Dapol models bear all the hallmarks of having been based on locos in preservation whose detailed rendering is rarely precisely correct.

 

Incidentally, if anyone thinks that I am running down Dapol unfairly, I would point out that both Hornby and Bachmann have made similar errors in 4mm scale, with no Hornby model precisely replicating any one of the huge 350hp shunter class and most Bachmann ones being wrong too. As I said before, the prototype class is a minefield - they may all look alike but .............

Sorry, that is nonsense. Matter of fact 08105 & 08107 received their TOPS numbers whilst still in black livery and D3052 made it to December 1973 in black. Not ALL visits to works, resulted in a repaint. Also your quoted number range for the 350s delivered in black is wrong; 13000-13244 (NOT 13259) and 13298-13336 (NOT 13315) were delivered in black. 

No. The only known GFYE Class 76 was E26031 and that had the Lion & Wheel Emblem.

On 02/12/2020 at 22:55, Silverfox17 said:

In the early and mid 60's he was in Scarborough. Harold Elliot did not retire to Brighton taking Sammy until late 60's and only some of the layout went into the seafront unit. 

Harold Elliott and Railwayland were definitely in Brighton by 1963/4. There was a far larger layout there then, than would have been after Harold sold up, around 1972/3. The Hornby three-rail layout was also there, opposite the main layout. Once an hour or so, Harold would move over to the Hornby layout and invite kids to have a go at some Hump Shunting.  I used to go there throughout the 60s and early 70s. Once he sold up, the new owner "asset-stripped" the best locos and much of the layout. It only lasted a year or so before closing altogether.  I remember Harold saying he would like to retire to Rhyl. Whether that's what he did or not, I don't know.

Here is 27024 in green at ED on 15 Jun 1974.  

Not my photo, copyright unknown.

23 hours ago, keefer said:

Haven't found any yet!

Railblue.com has 27001 & 27024 as the last of the class in green (001 w/ white stripe and 024 plain), both going blue 'by 1975'.

Also says that when these went blue, the ScR had no green locos (until 20146 & 149 arrived in 1976)

They had no green main line locos but still a handful of 08s in green in 1975.    When 20146 & 20149 turned up in green in 1976, they were fairly quickly given their blue coats so that ScR was 100% blue again. Then green 20020 turned up in 1977....

By Feb 1974, there were only two left....5818 & 5827.  5827 went on to carry its TOPS number, 31294 in green for a few weeks. I saw it in the Factory as 5827 on 16/3/74 and it was seen with its new number at Swindon the next day. Here is 5818 on OOC, on 22 Feb 1974..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ron_h/5408022345/in/photolist-9eTwCz

From memory there were a number of green 20s. As well as 141, 143 and 147 were both still in green at that point and there might well have been others.

20143 was NEVER in green, with TOPS numbers....

I revived this thread on 37 liveries, because I wondered if anyone had any info on green 37s with the BR double arrow symbol?

Two more are 6932 & 6950 and both were TOPS-renumbered like it.  I can't think of any others at the moment...

Ron.

D5406 went the way most 27s did and caught fire in late 1973. Here she is at GWKS....returning to traffic in 1974, in blue and with TOPS numbers.

Cheers, Ron.

There are more than two. My photo collection includes the following.

 

D12040, D12047, D12062. (Note "D" prefix).

12052, 12063, 12069, 12071, 12082, 12083.

12081 and 12084 were reported in blue but I've no photographic evidence.

 

And one even more unusual, 12108 in green with double arrow.

12136 was reported the same but I've no photographic evidence.

 

Have now found a photo of 12136 and it did not have double arrow logos.

It did appear to have yellow coupling rods, (as did 12106).

D12040 and 12069 had red rods on blue livery whilst 12106 and 12121 had

tops style numbers on green.

 

Paul J.

 

Edited to update certain info and add more.

I can confirm 12081 & 12084 both blue.

Also 12038 & 12049.

Cheers, Ron.

there were several of these, 6921/32/50 off the top of my head but a few others.

Add 6982 to that list...

Don't think I've encountered this style of yellow panel on a Peak before. D144:

http://www.flickr.co...3@N23/lightbox/

 

or indeed serif lettering on a 40:

http://www.flickr.co...3@N23/lightbox/

...which one though, the caption doesn't add up to me

At least D82, D164 & D165 had similar yellow ends.

The 40 with serif numbers, is D206. Also D238, 240, 245 & 248 had them. Maybe others too.

Rgds, Ron.

Sorry if it's been mentioned before (I haven't had time to go through ALL the posts), but D8242 was GSYP with BR Arrows at least up to mid-1970.

R.

It appears that D5701 and D5708 were the only two exceptions. All other examples were withdrawn in GSYP.My link

 

Edit: As far as I can see, that is correct. I cannot accept responsibility for dud info, however.

D5707 definately GFYE as well.

R.

and, although they would never have been in traffic in the livery ratio in which the class ended its days, the above suggests 39 locos made it to BFYE, another 39 received FYE on green, and the last 39 were never repainted. If that is the case, it's some coincidence!

If I can "fine tune" one or two of these;

8508 was GFYE no "D" on scrapping.

8536 " " " " " "

8539 same

8552 DITTO

8579 and again

8597 another

8601 yup

8506 GFYE (no "D") Motherwell Sep1970

8507 BFYE (no "D") 17May1975 GWKS

8528 GFYE (no "D") 1970 Millerhill

8545 BFYE (no "D") 5Sep1970 Motherwell

8592 GFYE (no "D") Aug 1971 Eastfield

8601 GFYE (no "D") 1971 Haymarket

I have a few more to look at, but hope these are some use to be going on with....

Cheers, Ron.

Hymeks could be BSYP and BSYPWW D7007 and 7051 were BSYP without the white window surrounds.

D7004 also carried BSYP without white window surrounds, but not for as long as the other two. I have a pic dated "1966" without white surrounds and Brush Veteran has one dated March 1967 WITH white surrounds. This is the only pic I've seen of this loco sans surrounds, so I wonder if there were any more that "slipped through the net" by only carrying the livery for a very short time.

Rgds, Ron.

Rgds, Ron.

Hi Ron,

 

thanks for this. I was just trying to reassure myself that what i thought about liveries

was correct. I could not remember D8046 being blue!! Do you have any info on the

state of the yellow panels at this time? I know that some of them received full yellow ends

soon after arrival in 1967. I have seen a shot taken at South Blyth with either D8018 or D8019

with full yellow ends, sadly the number cannot be read but it is definitely one of those 2 as it has

oval buffers. I will be looking for info on 37's but will start a different thread for those.

 

Regards,

 

Trev.

Hi Trev,

D8019 had FYE, by the summer of '69 (good name for a song!) and 8021 had recently painted FYE in July 1970 (so COULD have been SYP, prior to that). I'll try and do some digging on the others....

Cheers, Ron.

Gloucester class 100 MBS car no. SC51117 ran in blue with small yellow panel until 1973. I cannot recall any of the DTC cars in this livery.

If the date on this is to be believed, it lasted until September 1974 at least. Must be the last BSYP of ANY type, to remain in service....

SC51117 BSYP, 4 September 1974

Rgds, Ron.

Hi,

 

thanks for this it all adds to my knowledge. This was getting quite late

for the 20s. You didn't make any notes on liveries did you?

 

Regards,

 

Trev.

Hi Trev,

8021,8023,8025,8026,8028 were all green at that time - they were STILL all green on TOPS renumbering. As far as I recall, 20021 & 28 went blue in 1975, 20025 in 1976, 20026 around 1977/8 and 20023 in early 1979. Also, 8028 had the Tablet-Catcher recess, from when it was an IS loco.

Of the sum total of 20s that were allocated to GD, listed a few posts up - aside from the D83XXs, the only BLUE ones, were 8046 & 8048. These two were among the very first Class 20 blue repaints and both carried the old "block-style" numerals and "D" prefixes. D8048 was unique in having its arrows the wrong way 'round.

Rgds, Ron.

That was too easy, quick search of google and flickr for "37008 hornet" :

http://www.martinbra...sley-080588.jpg (need a 37, try Martin Bray)

Loads of this same side on flickr but this is the only one of the other end

http://www.flickr.co...N02/3403945359/

Getting the other side was a greater challenge

http://www.flickr.co...iff/5102711191/

Very nice, but I've had those shots for years.

The question was; Does anyone have any shots of 37008, in Red-Stripe Railfreight, WITH ITS "HORNET" NAMES, before its smash-up.

None of those pics fit the bill - not SO easy, huh?

Thanks anyway.

Ron.

Just about everything covered here.

Does anyone have a shot of 37008 in Red Stripe Railfreight, with "Hornet" names, BEFORE its smash-up?

Rgds, Ron.

Here's a new one:

http://www.flickr.co...tream/lightbox/

 

and a few further on, 5335 in GFYE at what looks like home, 60A: http://www.flickr.co...tream/lightbox/

Another shot of D5335 here; http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/5861529836/ still with white stripe and tablet-catcher.

Rgds, Ron.

MY contribution to the farce, which is occurring today, at my expense, was spending six hours working on the garden, not reading any Newspapers or watching any TV. I'm about to have a bit of dinner and then I'm going back to bed.

Wake me up when it's all over..........................

R.

And here she is:

 

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=26157

 

Still with white stripe, non-matching bodyside door (Class 27?), and in one of my other favourite locations - Buckie on the Moray Coast network, penultimate freight. What a photo. No apologies for going O/T.

Amazing that D5335 went GFYE, way back in 1968 but no more were ever done, even though there were still green 26s three years later. There is a so-far unproven rumour that D5324 had FYE for a short time, but I'll not be holding my breath for a photo.....

Ron.

Here's ambivalence for you Ian - 20020 In GFYE 1978? at Inverness.... http://www.railphoto...8-RP11.jpg.html [Rail Photoprints]

 

 

The ScR cleared out its green locos THREE times.

The first was in 1976 with the repainting of the final green 08s, then 20146 & 20149 came up from Toton in 1976, both green. These went blue during 1977, giving the ScR an all-blue fleet again.......until, green 20020 was sent up from Tinsley in late 1977.

Rgds, Ron.