Pandora

4 hours ago, Derek 19B said:

In E M Johnson’s book Woodhead the electric railway there is a copy of the Rolling stock construction order for 27 mixed traffic locomotive’s , the 27 is crossed out and seven in its place . The order is signed by A.H.Peppercorn 14th July 1949. Numbers allocated 27000 to 27006. 

I believe the last 12 EM1 were named and classed as mixed traffic to cover for the short order of mixed traffic locos.

 

derek

The original order bears the signature of A H Peppercorn,  the reduction of the quantity to 7, is it signed by J F Harrison or Peppercorn?

Such was the lure of the final work of steam, one member of our school railway society, Dave Taylor,  took off an unplanned whim,  cycling to Weymouth from Doncaster, for the final Summer of Steam on the Southern, the round trip must be 500 miles,  no-one knew where he had gone, parents were frantic.  Missing for a week , slept anywhere he could find, one night in an air-raid shelter, 14 years of age at the time

19 hours ago, Derek 19B said:

You can see where the design for the EM1 can from ,probably with some help from Metropolitan Vickers. The redesign of the cab for the EM1 I can only find one reference from Edgar Clayton who in 1947 was in Holland with Tommy (6000) while on loan.

 

The NS driver recommended that the cab could be made more comfortable and roomy for the driver with more leg room, and the controls more easily to hand.

 

Report sent 8/10/47 by Mr Clayton to head office (Kings Cross) . Someone must have taken note and redesign the cab.

 

derek

I could not find an Edgar Clayton, there is a Wikipedia entry for Edgar Claxton,  an Electrification Engineer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Claxton

A weblink to more vintage 1500 V DC electrics:

https://www.irfca.org/gallery/Locos/Electric/wcpx/

In my humble opinion there is a some "look and feel" of Woodhead  traction.

https://www.irfca.org/gallery/Locos/Electric/wcpx/umax49b.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

40 minutes ago, keefer said:

Maybe not too different from Raven's No 13?

https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ee1.php

Not too different:

I think the Raven loco was Quill drive, a lot of developments in transmission going on.

Here is a SLM Universal Drive loco from SLM Winterthur constructed in 1930

Indian  electric locomotive 4006 of 1930, 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterthur_Universal_Drive#/media/File:Electric_loco_4006.jpg

SLM and MetroVick  built  a batch of electric locos Winterthur-Universal-Drive locos for  India,  1928 to 1930, (from Wikipaedia)

They may be the type of locomotive Gresley had in mind

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterthur_Universal_Drive#/media/File:Electric_loco_4006.jpg

2 hours ago, keefer said:

According to https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/em2.php it would seem the EM2 was a design for British Railways (by whom, i don't know). It used the EM1 as a basis for the bodies but the bogies were similar to the LMS 'Twins'.

They definitely came after Nationalisation as the order was cut from 27 (or 29) locos to just seven in 1950, both as a result of required cuts in expenditure, and also as it has been decided not to extend the 1500V DC system - there was no need for so many express locos on the MSW network.

I followed the link in your post and read of a requirement of nine passenger locos.

" The original 1936 plan for the electrification of the Manchester, Sheffield and Wath line included nine express passenger locomotives, in addition to the mixed traffic EM1 Bo-Bo locomotives. The EM1s were designed first, and the only pre-war express passenger design known to have existed was submitted by the Swiss Locomotive and Machine Works, Winterthur in 1939. This was a 4-6-4 with a universal drive, 13ft wheelbase, and a total length of 55ft. Development work was interrupted by World War 2, and the final EM2 design that was built in 1953 bore no resemblance to the Swiss proposal. In fact, there was very little LNER influence in the final EM2 design.".

Do we have any drawings of the Swiss 4-6-4 passenger locomotive?

26 minutes ago, Derek 19B said:

The EM2 were designed by Mr E S Cox and Mr C M Cock in  May 1948 .Also to use the latest design of bogie as used on the LMR 10,000 locomotive.

Taken from Woodhead the Electric Railway by E M Johnson.

 

derek

 

The design of Tommy was revised for the fleet of the EM1 locos, the change to the  driving cabs is the first one we see,  were the revisions by Cox and Cock, and do we have a date for the work?

A question as to the history  of the EM2.

The EM1 is a project of Sir Nigel Gresley CME of the LNER.

The EM2.

Under which  CME was  the EM2 proposed?

Was it Gresley, Edward Thompson, or Arthur Peppercorn?

Was the EM2 a British Railways  project in entirety ? Or  Is the EM2  a design passed from the LNER to British Railways?

Under the LNER Woodhead scheme, how did Gresley envisage the working of express passenger trains, Steam or Electric?

A meeting was held yesterday, seemingly "make or break".,  between Minister  Shapps and Major Khan over the short-term funding needs  of TFL.

Reports are TFL have accepted the package on the table,  a package said to be £600 million short of the  Mayor Khan budget.

I cannot find the details of the package but reports are anticipating cuts to TFL services and rises in fares.

TFL continue to hold the keys, they have not taken the road  of a S114 notice, preferring to be in control  over handing over the reins to the Minister.

Rose Grove,  a  Colliery line with a steep gradient, ran past the shed into the station sidings, rakes of heavily loaded 16T mineral wagons, worked by  pairs of 8Fs , one as the train engine, the other as the banker, delivered  as fine a soundtrack  as any enthusiast could wish to  hear, mid-July 1968. 

The order for the EM2 fleet was 30 (cannot remember the exact figure) ,  the order was cut back to 7, the paperwork for the amended order has  the signature of Freddie Harrison, a Gresley bright young man, to become CME of BR.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the why 30 EM2 locos were required, what was in their mind?      I do not believe they were for the ECML,as we can see the LNER thinking was dieselisation. In  any case the route mileage  KX to Scotland would be quite costly.

A shorter route would fit the bill,  London Liverpool Street to Norwich express services,  extending  the Great Eastern 1500 VDC suburban scheme to  Norfolk.

Does anyone have any papers which show light on the reason for the prosal of a large fleet of the EM2 loco, whee were they intended to operate?

On 14/07/2020 at 10:57, phil-b259 said:

 

The Woodhead scheme was an inherited one - construction works started before WW2 meaning all BR had to do was dust off the plans and resume.

 

The BTC had an inheritance of three projects from the  LNER, 1) Woodhead, 2)  electrification out of London Liverpool Street, 3) the Kings Cross to Newcastle express  passenger diesel project, new diesel depots at London and Newcastle to service the fleet,  two projects resumed as you state but with revision,  the order for the fleet of 30 or so EM2 Woodhead locos  trimmed to 7, an abdication of an intention to further the cause of Woodhead .  The diesel project was quietly dropped,  replaced with  order for a  third batch of the Peppercorn A1 locos to make good the lost diesels, ,  had the LNER  diesel project gone ahead,  BR Eastern Region would have pioneered  mainline electric and mainline diesel operation, years  in advance of the BR Pilot scheme of the late 1950s

On 09/06/2020 at 11:28, caradoc said:

Manchester/Sheffield in 35 minutes ? Possibly, but only to a rebuilt Sheffield Victoria, which is not exactly handy for the city centre, and has poor bus and no tram connections, nor connection to any other train service; So the trains would have to run through to Midland anyway, requiring as you say either a new rail link, which would not be cheap, at all, or a time-consuming reversal.

 

I have a recollection that Sheffield Victoria had a train service by DMUs to and from the direction of Doncaster,  does anyone have any details of the timetable, such as number of trains per day, and when the direct service was withdrawn?  The withdrawal year may have been the early 1960s.

it was a trek to walk from Sheffield Midland to Sheffield Victoria,  I believe the plans included a line to link  the two stations, but was never constructed, the land for the link may have been of protected status for many years, does anyone have a map showing the route of the Midland to Victoria link?

7 hours ago, rodent279 said:

On balance, I'd still say it's blue, but it's not conclusive.

Noting the Tommy in the background, around 1970, a number of diesel shunter 08 locos in Manchester Longsight/Reddish area had some unusual shades of Rail Blue, we spotters gave it the name of Manchester Blue, there were comments  about the colour in the Railway Magazine Traffic & Traction notes, the colour could not be  down to too many trips through the carriage washing plant, the locos were fresh and shiny. The Tommy in the background triggered memories of sightings of  "Manchester Blue"  Were 08 diesels repainted at depots,  or was it a Works task?

From Flickr

E26056 FYE,  check the colour and post your opinion:

Speculation  in the press suggests TFL will  not agree to the recent Grant Shapps  funding package and TFL will give soon declare a S114  Notice placing TFL under strict control of spending

A sample article:

https://www.railtech.com/policy/2022/08/16/transport-for-london-could-be-nationalised/?gdpr=accept

My studies of PO Wagon Works, I I know of wagon works  having a gate across the track leading from the goods sidings

On 12/08/2022 at 19:26, SM42 said:

It looks a little odd, but the one thing that makes it odder to me is that the signal apoears to be plated as a controlled signal. 

 

All other AHBs in my experience have been in auto or absulute block sections. 

 

Perhaps it is an auto plated up as controlled due to the presence of the crossing.

I'm not up to date on such things

 

Andy

Operationally needs to be a Controlled Signal,  the signaller replaces the controlled signal to red  when a train is to held or delayed at the platform,  with the train safely at a stand behind the red, the signaller can open the crossing to road traffic, otherwise long unnecessary delays and traffic jams for motorists

The LC would be operated by track circuits and by treadles positioned a considerable distance in advance of the LC,  treadles are rail mounted and the wheel flanges depress the treadle as the train passes, known as  "Strike-in"  if before and corresponding "Strike-out" treadles after the crossing.  The signaller will also have controls for the LC, imagine the train is delayed  in the  platform for 15 minutes, signal at danger, the signaller can raise the barriers to road traffic to avoid traffic jams 

The Adventures of Twizzle, production of 1957, early Gerry Anderson (later Thunderbirds) / Roberta Leigh (later Space Patrol), the shop has an early TriAng set in operation, probaby the Jinty,

episode 1:

https://youtu.be/3E5sU_wl-bk?t=142.

I was not aware the puppets for such shows were so big,  from the video probably half-size relative to humans

Pandemic, or, No Pandemic:

TFL:   Future Passenger Revenue as predicted by TFL in their 2019 Business Plan   

Passenger revenue (figures from TFL BP of 2019):       2020/21 £5.1bn,    2021/22  £5.4bn,      2022/23  £5.8bn,        2023/24  £6.5bn.

Predictions for 2023/24 of £6.5bn from 2020/21 of £5.1bn (also a  prediction) represents 27% growth in revenue in  just 3 years.

Growth of 27% sounds optimistic to me,  even if the pandemic had never happened.

Even  without the pandemic,  would TFL  have achieved 27% growth in revenue, and if not,  would TFL have requested  extraordinary Govt funding?

2 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Adding an annual cap will take time and money because at present Freedom passes are treated by the back office system like Oyster travel cards.  Travel cards have no requirement to touch in and out within the covered zones and thus no concept of a charging implication for incomplete journeys within those zones.  The back office systems will have to be modified to change that for Freedom passes and convert them into some sort of pre-topped up PAYG equivalent.  History suggests changes to the Oyster back office system don't happen in a hurry and any putative revenue gain will be offset initially by the cost of such a change.

 

It's also likely "the minister" will have had an ear bashing from the London Tory group who oppose phasing it out because they fear (with some justification) an electoral backlash in the outer suburbs.  My view has always been that the revenue generated by dumping it will be far lower than the Government thinks and the political cost far higher especially in the current economic climate.  As such it seems a very strange thing to pick a big fight over.  If it does get withdrawn then the least damaging way to do it is to let existing pass holders keep them and close the scheme to new applicants.  However we'll see what happens.     

The Freedom Pass is issued at State Pension age (66 for me, I have my pass)  My speculation is the TFL  Over-60s  Oyster Card is at risk, the card is valid from the recipients 60th  birthday and  expires at state pension age, therefore Oystercard  current for 6 years until the issue of a Freedom Pass, the Freedom Pass  extends the  free travel utility over and above  an  over-60s  Oystercard by  offering   ECNTS bus travel in England.  The Pensioner's Freedom Pass I believe is safe, but I am anticipating significant changes to the Over-60s Oystercard. Both Passes have a journey history log which is readable by the card holder from most TFL station ticket machines,  could the journey history log  be used by the system  as a  tally count and to set a maximum figure for free travel  journeys made with the Oystercard  in say a year or a month of usage?

I have received an e-mail from KR,:      "We have finished processing your order".

Does this infer the model is being shipped to my address?

Has anyone received their Fell locomotive?

The adjacent  Rotherhithe road tunnel of 1908 is noteworthy, noteworthy for the reason that when assessed by modern safety standards, it is number 7 in the league table of dangerous tunnels in Europe.

Portal to portal is 1700 yards,   there is no provision for an  emergency evacuation  on foot, a vehicular evacuation would require reversal, the road being so narrow,   the two  vertical shafts housing spiral staircases leading to exits at each riverbank have been locked out of use for at least 30 years.  The Tunnel and entry/exit ramps were  not for designed motorised  traffic, but for horsedrawn traffic,   the gradients of those ramps  to the  capability  of a horse and unladen cart. Laden carts not permitted, they used Tower Bridge. The riverbed above  the tunnel is shallow in depth,  the lining is said to have a distortion from when a passing river vessel  fouled the riverbed.