Simon Lee

On 28/06/2022 at 20:06, teeinox said:

Simon, many thanks for the detailed information: amazing!

 

I wonder, though, does anyone know how things were organised at Dunkerque?  Were there specific trains from, say, Spain, that were timetabled to make a particular ferry connection?  And was train ferry capacity “pre-booked” for specific services and numbers of wagons, or was there some sort of queuing system at Dunkerque?  The same question applies to the other way round, too, when leaving Dover on the ferry back to continental Europe.

 

teeinox

Yes there was a block Transfesa train from Hendayne to Dunkerque arriving around 0600/0700 each day. The various wagons would congregate at the Spanish side of the border at Irun for wheel change then run overnight to Dunkerque.

The 0930/1000 ferry was virtually always full of perishables any left overs would follow on the 1200 ferry, both would connect with the afternoon trunk services to Tyne and Bescot.

Perishables naturally took priority on the import direction.  Export wise, we had a regular flow of between 2 and 4 VTG bogie vans from Ford engine plant at Bridgend to Ford at  Saarlouis they were always top priority on 6O50 0150 Seven Tunnel to Dover and then straight on to the 1230 sailing. 6O50 was booked via the Chatham and into the Town yard, invariably we would run it straight into the Ferry yard ready for the sailing such was the importance of the Ford traffic.

The the monthly flow of China clay always took priority on 2 overnight sailings. 2 wagons came via Network services and were held to meet the 2 x 11 wagon block trains. Due to loading and stability issues on the older ships, we could only load 6 wagons down the centre straights, always with 2 empty ferry's leading to prevent the ship being down by the head. The ballasting system of the small ferries was designed around the wagons of the day, never envisaging the large bogie wagons that came in the late 70s and 80s. 

All the laying out of the export wagons was done by the shunters mental  calculations, to ensure the maximum load and stability. Never did we have any incidents on the sea, the mutual trust and respect of the shunters and ships crew saw to that. 

The key to the availability of export shipping,  was the correct documentation, back the docs came via Royal Mail or wagonside, once checked the shipping clerks would advise a list of all wagons with correct documents once a full load had been identified the clerks would present the docs for Customs clearance and prepared a ships bag of documents and manifest. Railway owned empty wagons passed without documentation, as did empty Transfesa wagons.

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Thanks for publishing that, Simon. Very interesting stuff. It would be nice to see that level of traffic these days. Where are you based these days? Doncaster?

Hi Brian, 

They were really great times. I started 1981 at Dover then onto Dollands finally leaving in 1999 for Doncaster CSDC.

There was certainly never a dull day at Dover, we worked hard and played hard, and then being involved at Dollands from a greenfield site up to opening in 1994 was something I will never forget. 

Certainly we felt we were in on something unique and special, maybe the same for you and your colleages ? 

I took the money in 2015 and now live in Germany where there is luckily a healthy freight scene, 10 minutes cycle ride and I can be lineside on the right Rheine side majority freight line,  quiet times  6 - 8  TPH !!

Lots of interesting information to hand now thanks to a couple of old hands from Dover.

First lets deal with Customs.

3 types of import traffic -

1) Under bond. Customs clearance at an inland "port" such as Hither Green, Paddock Wood, LIFT (Stratford), MIFT (Trafford Park) Hull Central (perishables only) and in later years  BIFT (Lawley St) and GIFT (Mossend)   All the inland ports dealt with both perishables and generals, with the exception of Hull. This all depended on the ageements that the importer had with HMCE. Documents to enable clearance were either attached in the wagon label cage, or in the case of Hither Green or Paddock Wood with a bulk train load, were given in care of the guard.  Traffic other than for HG and PWT, was generally penny lots, and passed via normal freight services and in later years Speedlink. 

2) Provincial Fruit known as "Provs" to the locals. These were customs cleared at Dover, usually within an hour of landing in the Ferry yard, perishable traffic tended to be repeatative in nature and with the same importer so HMCE were not generally interested in stopping these wagons, the only ones that sometimes took longer were peaches and grapes from Greece and sometimes apples from Franch, as these did not pass in volume and there were occasional errors on the documents. In later years HMCE would sometimes pull a Transfesa of onions for training new sniffer dogs, it was always interesting to watch the new recruits scrambling over 26 tons of netted onions to find the bag of contraband planted by their handlers. 

3) Generals everything not catered for above. Again regular flows were cleared within a few hours of arrival, new or occasional traffic took longer depending on the arrangements the import had. Remeber back in the day, import duty had to be paid on lots of traffic so payments would be secured before clearance was granted. The longest delay was over a year for a wagon of Yugoslavian bottled beer for a new importer in Northampton, unfortunatly the company never took delivery as they went out of business. The contents were disposed of locally 🤣

The general rule was that wagons provs and generals were not supposed to leave the old ferry yard until clearance was receieved in case any wagons were pulled for a turn out and tally. 

Following are the recollections of Dover driver John Linge who, is a keen railway man and a very interesting man to chat too. It should answer most of the questions raised on here, bare in mind what John descibes is what happened on the day, not what the "book" said should happen. 

"There were overhead wires in the Town Yard, and Bulwark Street Reception siding. It should be remembered that until the 1970s there was no access into the Town Yard from the Folkestone direction, all arriving trains from that direction running into Bulwark Street. The Reception line extended alongside the main line to the stops almost opposite the points of Hawkesbury Street Junction, although the overhead only extended to the old Viaduct, then for the last length a 3rd rail was provided. When trains of extreme length that could not be accomodated in Bulwark Street arrived hauled by Class 71 locos (such as the car train from Knowle and Dorridge, which originally changed loco's at Longhedge Junction and was hauled by a 71 to Dover and was made up of six Cartic 4s) the train was split into two parts on the main line, the front portion was pulled into the Reception Road, then either the Town Pilot came over and placed it straight into the Military or into the Town Yard, or the train loco pushed it back up the Cliff siding, which was between the main line and the cliff face, back towards Folkestone. After the front portion had been disposed of, the train engine ran back out onto the Down Main (passing the "dummy" at danger, as no Limit of Shunt was provided on the Down Main) and retrieved the rear portion and pulled it into the Reception road. This was very time consuming, especially at the beginning of the morning peak when this train arrived, and the addition of the facing crossover allowing trains from Folkestone direct access to Dover Town was a considerable improvement.

The very short No. 1 Road (which like No. 2 were not through roads then) at Dover Town was always fitted with a short length of conductor rail, to allow 71s to be stabled there, as they were not allowed to be shut down "under the wire". This was because the overhead was only designed for low powered moves in yards, and if a Booster Set was started when the overhead was in use there was a very real danger danger that the power needed would cause the wire to behave like a fuse, and they all came down.

There were, in the early seventies, four "Continental" ferry van trains to Hither Green each day, 0030, 0810, 1615 and 2035. All 71 worked and, apart from the 0030, generally started from No. 1 Ferry Siding, and were booked via Chatham. No. 1 Ferry was fitted with a conductor rail. The 0030 usually started from Dover Town, and was booked via Folkestone. There was also an 1155 to Faversham, and as well as ferryvans, conveyed the BSK that was used to provide the passenger accommodation on the down Faversham-Dover portion of the down Chatham Newspaper train. This train started from Dover Town, pushing out of the Yard towards Folkestone.

The use of 71s was restricting, and, when there was an overload of traffic from the continent I remember that very occasionally the Ferry Pilot would push a raft of Ferryvans into one of the Marine platform roads and the train would start from there.

Later, when the 71s were withdrawn and 73s and Diesels took over it was not unusual for (when room was at a premium in the Ferry and Town Yards) these trains to be started from the East and West roads on the pier.

It was also not unusual then (before Paddock Wood was in operation) for vans to be placed in the sidings on the up at St. Mary Cray and less often at Bromley South when Hither Green was overloaded with fruit, and returning empties were often berthed on the Down at Selling."

HTH 

Simon

On 26/06/2022 at 17:49, RichardT said:

Train Safe cassettes? Pricey, but they do the job. Is there still a UK stockist?

https://shop.train-safe.de/index.php?lang=1&cl=start

 

(Should display in English - if not you can change the language on the Home Screen top menu)

 

Richard T

Plus 1 for Trainsafe,  very light and with the end caps on totally dust proof. 

They have a variety of track offers so you can run loco and stock in and out, though mine are used for display only I use a mix of Roco and Peco track.

They are pricey but if your collection is valuable then maybe worth the outlay.

On 20/06/2022 at 20:57, Lyddrail said:

In photos I have seen, there was some 3rd rail sections in Dover Town Yard, and no OHL.

Cheers.

 

The Town yard did have 750 volt ohl.

At the "London" end, roughly from the accomodation block up towards the weighbridge and the open end of the departure sidings 7 - 14. I could never find our the total extent, possibly in the NRM there are diagrams. 

Bear in mind that Dover loco occupied the pier end of the yard until the mid 60's which restricted the size of the yard. No 1 road was juiced and was, until around 1980, split with buffer stops, there are photos on the net of the London end of the road with 3 x 71 stabled. No 2 reception was juiced throughout (conrail)

There was also the remains of one of the gantry supports attached to a brick wall on the cliff side. It has appeared in various photos taken of the shunt locos and wagons that were taken from the beach.

I have it in mind that the reception road in Bulwark yard was also wired for Ohl but can not be 100% sure, have asked the question on the Dover staff FB group but as always, most who could have  remembered are no longer with us.

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

In the 1970s was it?

Ye Gods! 

Imagine having to fill in a Risk Assessment for that now.

That why we have the Pink Pages in the Working Manual, plus the back stop of TOPS train list gave the final check on compatability before you put your name to the train list.

We also had the added complication of meeting maritime segregation requirements which might differ from land requirements, including certain chemicals "Dangerous on water but not on land" 

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

Brian did say at the end...  so he means late 1980s and early 1990s. 

 

It took us a while to realise that after 'doing' Hoo Junction on a Sunday it was an easy run down to Dover where I can never remember anyone objecting to us wandering around the ferry reception sidings (some of you know what these different yards were called, I don't). And lots of unusual ferry wagons were to be found. At least inbetween all the hazardous loads were sufficient bottles of water to put out any fires 😅 

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ferrywagons

 

Certainly Sodium, nuclear and phosphorus call all be seen together, alongside Butadiene, methyl trichlorsan and many others. 

 

09s Shunting in the yards https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br0809/e3261e08a   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br0809/e29368aa0

 

and class 33/2s used for transfer to the ferries https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brcwclass33/e3bda7d92  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brcwclass33/e347b9354  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brcwclass33/e233a05b9

 

Paul

33203 is stabled on Bulwark siding, the gates to the BP oil depot, can just be seen on the right of the photo.

Guess you would be in Dover Town yard, between the beach and the main line accessed from the foot crossing by the station. We had regular visits from The Leicester Railway Wagon Society who always gave me copies of their publications. 

11 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I'm not 100% certain, but I think it's a phosphorus tank. Risborough & District MRC

I think fuel-oil for Dover came in via the Hawkesbury Road terminal. 

Portsmouth drew fuel oil from BP Hamble.

Fishguard received tanks from BP Llandarcy (in unfit tanks until the end of the 1960.

 

That is, indeed a phosporus tank, Vlissingen Sloehavn to Langley Green and vv.

In the old ferry yard at Dover there was one siding still referred to as "Oil Road" located next to the ferry dock on the station side. This had been used for bunkering the older Shepperton/Hampton/Twickenham ships. In the 80s it was only used for bunkering when the British flag Vortigern was covering for one of the regular ferries overhaul periods.The SNCF/ALA ships bunkered in Dunkerque.

The Sealink Eastern Docks fleet was bunkered by road tanker from the remains of Bulwark yard, (accessed via Hawkesbury Street and Bulwark Street, with a mix of 45 and 100 ton cars. The Sealink fuelling foreman would call for shunts each evening ready for the next days work.

On the same site roughly where the Brett Aggregates terminal in now, was BP Oil private siding, they mainly supplied domestic customers, both Industrial and household heating oil dealers. Againt 45 and 100 ton cars were employed. They would also from time to time supply other ferry operators with bunker fuel, but not the Hovercraft as they were not licensed for aviation fuels.

The Faversham BSK move carried on until the end of newspaper traffic. It was, as mentioned, an expedient way to return the coach to Fav for the 0455 Dover the next morning. 

Saturdays normally the BSK returned on the main van empties to New Cross Gate for exam/maintainance. I suspect the AB Saturday service ran vac if the BSK returned unusually to Fav.

In latter years we ran Woods traffic with the BSK to Sittingbourne where it was booked to run round before returning to Fav. Always a joy if an Interfrigo turned up as 9 out of 10 were vac pipe only, once had a formation of 73, Interfrigo, 2 x SNCF flats 874145 type and then BSK. 

It is less well known that Dover also had quite significant domestic traffic and export traffic not via the train ferry in the 60's, bunker fuel for the ferries, household coal, army stores, scrap metal plus the usual paraphernalia that of small town needs that the railway used to carry. 

Local traffic flows included import box Wood from Granville dock to Ramsgate for Canterbury for making fruit and vegetable boxes for the Garden of England produce. Gas works coal Granville docks to the town gas works.  Also possibly the shortest freight flow ever, imported foam rubber from the Admiralty pier to Dover Priory goods yard in Palvans.

Export tractors often appeared in for crane loading onto the RMT Ostende ferries.

14 hours ago, teeinox said:

Many thanks for all your replies.  They are most informative.  I found an article on Wikepedia, I think on freight through Dover.  According to that, the traffic imported into Dover via the train ferry included fruit and vegetables, chemicals, and nuclear fuels between the continent and the BNFL complex at Sellafield.  One of the chemical suppiers appeared to be a company called ETRA, based in Zurich.  Exports included china clay from south-west England to Switzerland and steel products from Teesside to France and Spain.  That fits with jonhall drawing attention to the geographical and economic split both in the UK and in continental Europe which influenced the choice of Harwich or Dover for particular traffics.  In addition, apart from the dedicated trains for perishable traffic to Hither Green and sometimes to the LMR (I have an undated photo of a blue class 71 with a "BA" headcode), there were no other trains dedicated to ferry traffic.  Onward distribution otherwise was as individual wagons conveyed in BR's wagonload network.

 

Seem about right?

That description covers from say mid 70s upto the demise of the ferry in December 1995. 

Regarding chemical tanks the Dover ships had full passenger certificates until 1985, therefore some chemicals would pass via Harwich, where the ships had a 12 passenger certificate only.  There were certain flows that were more restricted on the sea than the land and vice versa.  The Dover ships certificates were reduced in the mid 80s to coincide with the closure of Harwich, which led to mor flows coming via Dover.

General traffic during my time at Dover (1981 to closure) could be anything and everything, wood, furniture, shoes, bagged powder, clothing, cased beer, spirits, scaffold boards, cased wine, bulk wine, bulk Cinzano for Telford, copper dross, vehicles and farm machinery, sugar in Polybulks  new wagons, petfoods  all imports.

Exports  spirits (possibly the same ones that were imported)  Crowes of Glasgow supplied the mediterranian cruise ship industry with spirits via Switzerland, paperwork for that lot was a nightmare, used to take one of us at least an hour checking all the declarations, we would submit the papers as a standalone to Customs such was the workload we dropped on them, fortunatly we had a cgood relationship with the officers at Western Docks. 

Other exports were glass light bulbs, from Harworth, steel, china clay, seed potatoes, fish (usually condemmed) groupage, mails.

Most were long term flows so could have been in some of the 60s trains of your era of interest. 

2 hours ago, giz said:

I have a vague recollection of a green version of the Bournemouth blue being used on early mk2s that isn't shown there. I think it was one of the 48 SOs that I associate it with. Am I remembering correctly?

You are indeed, l remember on an ER excursion from Hull to Clacton, in 1974 l rode in a BSO, no 9390 (IIRC) that had the green version of the Bournemouth moquette. 

Signed up very easily, took my German address with no query, which sometimes happens on a variety of sites.

When I went to the integration page, that went very fast as well. I was expecting some issue as my tablet is not the newest device in the world. Certainly speedes up the browsing experience. 

Thanks for introducing this facility.

Was through there last Wednesday, the connection is normally ok, but if you want to go into the main station or domestic train services normally Customs channel you through a barrier, and let the dog have a quick sniff of your bags. It only adds about 2 to 3 minutes as the take to one side anyone of interest that Rover doesn't indicate.

The immigration procedures at Pancras cover all passport checks for mainland Europe.

Get hold of these DVDs and this book, before you go any further. 

As the Station Master says you need to decide on area, traffic flows (real or imagined) before you move forward with any layout.

There is a lot of knowledge on this site who can offer good advice, the official documents, WTTs, Sectional Appendices, and route learning guides will all help when you give us an idea of what your hoping to achieve.

https://www.telerail.co.uk/railway-dvds-telerail-titles/rail-freight-today-boxed-sets/rail-freight-today-box-set-1-volumes-1-5

https://www.amazon.com/British-Rail-Freight-Today-Tomorrow/dp/0710603126

34 minutes ago, teeinox said:

The ferry van train I have consists of a Hornby E5000 (later class 71) electric locomotive and a set of Hornby ferry vans for it to haul.  Prototypically, it would be on the Hither Green - Dover run.

 

The period is about 1960.  The locomotive is in the original Southern coach stock green, lined and no yellow warning panel.   The ferry vans bear the "flying crate" symbol.

 

The pictures I have seen are all later, and show such trains with no brake van.  But in 1960, would they have had a brake van, and if so what type: BR standard, odinary Southern, Queen Mary or something else?

 

Hope someone knows the answer!

I worked at Dover in my career, with many staff who had been guards  from the 30s until the advent of DOO(F) 

The Queen Mary's  were  the vehicle of choice, especially once drivers had become aware of the power of the E5000's and accompanying speeds attained. 

2 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Never model someone else's model - you never know whether it's right or not, and several on that site are not.

The key word is "inspiration",  (I cant see any mention of copy) in much the same way as the OP has "inspired" me to get my stash of van kits out.

I will construct them to the best of my ability, be it worse, as good as or better as the OP, ( the former being more likely) inspired by this topic, the EM70s websire, Mr Bartletts website, my own memories and various other sources, and the products, ie kits and transfers etc available to me.

As Mr Isherwood says there is a wealth of information available to all of us to attain our desired standard.

Perhaps as you have noted there are erroneous models on the EM70 site, and as this forum is a good place to share knowledge and tips for improving skills, you can share the errors with us ? 

As everyone can learn from others views, I presume you have pointed the errors out to the site owners, so they too  can improve their skills,  rather than just leaving cryptic statements here ?

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Don't buy it.

 

Are you really telling me they couldn't use any of the other Royal Train coaches that weren't Mark Threes? Or even give the ones used a quick repaint? Or even used a few Pullmans?

 

Why were they using bog standard BR coaches for a prestigious Royal Train for the most important event in modern times?

 

Still plenty of pre 1977 Royal Train stock available in 1981.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Royal_Train

 

The route might have been vaguely known, but I remember for a fact that their honeymoon plans were a closely guarded secret and there was debate on the TV footage and in the print media about where the destination of the train was as most reports was saying it's going to the airport.

 

I'm pretty sure the footage is somewhere on YouTube and newspapers of the day to corroborate that.

 

Worth remembering that Earl Mountbatten was murdered two years previously and there had also been threats from the Welsh Nationalists. Whilst the latter are always seen as not a major threat, two bombers had died during the 1969 Investiture in Abergele when a bomb went off.

 

 

 

Jason

You may be "don't buy it" but a lot of the Southern Royal workings often involved just the use of an ordinary SR unit just specially cleaned. During my time on the South Eastern twice her maj came to Kent in 4 CEP, once as part of a service train with the unit locked off at the corridor connection. There is documentary in magazines with written and photographic evidence, of BEP and REP units being used on the other divisions.

The main clue that a royal was travelling was the appearance of the "screen train",  bogie bolsters with upright fixed plywood sheets in a platform normally  at Victoria, next to a shiny CEP or BEP.

Word at the time was that Charles and Di didn't want too much pomp once the had left London, hence the use of 975025, private, secure,  with a pantry and a dedicated steward well used to dealing with bigwigs and gentry, plus the kitchen/pantry area, acted as a privacy screen between the couple and  the security bods.

The other two coaches a Mk2 FK and BCK conveyed the accompanying staff from the household.

The arrangements were made and approved through the normal channels of Waterloo HQ and Buckingham Palace, so one can only assume that the customer was happy with the arrangements made and the resultant moves on the day. Certainly none of the senior SR board or officers were hauled off the the tower or left to pursue other interests.

If you search for royal moves to Tattenham corner for the Derby, quite often only one Royal saloon is in the formation the full Royal turnout is only normally used for overnight moves. 

19 hours ago, Darius43 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Nice work there, having spent a good part of my early railway career unloading and later shunting parcels vans, they have a special place in my memories, which your efforts have stirred and inspired me to get the unbuilt kit box out. 

Just one observation, a few chalked destination and comments would set the job off to perfection.

4 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Would the ferries normally load to capacity, or was it only at peak times?

Would the two trains run closely behind one another, having arrived at the port at teh same time - and would both go to the same London destination?

 

Quite often the ships would be loaded to full depending in the mix of traffic available. During the 80s the 1100 service ex Dunkerque tended to be full of Transfesa/Interfrigo traffic, as it was the first departure after arrival of the train from the Spanish border. 

Certain sailings were always heavily loaded, when the export Polybulks ran they took up virtually a full ship (2330 sailing) on 2 consecutive days. The period upto  Christmas was naturally 90% perishable traffic import and a consequent rush on export empties for Transfesa.

3 hours ago, Whetstone Bridge said:

I’m collecting the Dapol ferry wagons.  Anyone know the prototypical rake size?  A photo would be really helpful.

 

WB

Assuming you mean the Interfrigo type van, then an average of 20/23 wagons of these or the Transfesa Blues or combination would be a train load for say Paddock Wood.

This would then tend to be a full ship load for the St Germain or St Eloi returning to Dunkerque. 

The 40 wagon capacity was based on the shorter wagon builds from the start of the Trainferry era.

46 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Fantastic resource, but radioactive materials by passenger train?????!!!!

 

Mike.

Yes, usually medical Isotopes, before the M62 eastern end opened, we would regularly recieve them via Red Star at Hull Paragon for the Royal Infirmary from the Leeds hospitals. The TransPennines also regularly carried blood for transfusion from the blood bank at Leeds, if per chance both were presented for the same train, then the blood was stowed in the brake where the guard was riding, and the Isotopes in the second brake compartment.

7 hours ago, Strathwood said:

Although the EU is still fraught with shipping issues with member states stopping some parcels and demanding customs duties on some book consignments, even where no duty or VAT is due. We have decided today to re-introduce shipping to the EU once more, although it will remain the responsibility for the customer to clear any levies imposed in their country of residence. 

 

Kevin

Excellent news, though my wallet just screamed :) out of interest who is / will be your courier for such parcels ? 

44 minutes ago, bécasse said:

And he would have been a passenger, rather than goods, guard.

Not necessarily as goods guards could work passenger and parcels trains, but not the other way round.

3 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Does this mean that The Southern Way series has finished, No 57 being the last? I could get that shipped to the EU so I hope Kevin that you will be able to resume EU shipments soon.

I was wondering the same for shipment to Germany, and on investigating, Transport Treasury, the publishers of Southern Times offer postage to Europe on their website and via their Amazon store page.