B McG

Hi Ian, Having endlessly planned with XTrackCAD I've done my share of fiddle yard designs and optimisations. The last layout I had before dismantling had similar constraints, you'll definitely need 4 feet to start. Leaving aside the branch fiddle for the moment I've drafted out a nine road with 3 bidirectional, 3 up and 3 down. Better still you could think about close to full length trains or if not double parking in each loop. Minimum radius is 22 inches in old money, I used medium radius points to start the fan and curved points there after. Width wise it comes to just over 18 inches wide using medium radius point to set the gaps between each line. If you or anyone else on this thread wants the file feel free to drop me a PM. Cheers Bryant

Thanks David, having suffered sciatica once myself I think you are right about at least a lift out section. Given the state of my current woodworking skills my line of thinking is flip the layout so that the minimum track is affected. That would mean that the area of the bridge and quayside in the original plan will be the area of the lift out. If I use the baseboard edge as a quay then effectively I'm only looking at the elevated double track being in the lift out. An elegant solution methinks! My line of thinking with the double track bay was to use one as a motor rail facility have the other accessible for the branch DMU's. Seeing that the loop would more likely be used as the branch platform rather than than crossing the main lines to the bay I'll delete one of the sidings and see how it looks. Cheers Bryant

That is also my thinking too regarding a feature bridge an open sea in the operators well. I'm having a look online to see if there is any modellers out there that have done a bridge on a 50 inch radius curve. I've worked out on XTrackCAD that the Quayside will be 5 inches down, I could elevate the line over the quayside by another inch, so with 2 inches to the water level the line would be 8 inches above

No problem, your shed manufacturer tip has saves me over a £1000 compared to the nearest quote. Just to get the word out to any followers of this thread who may have an interest, the manufacturer has been really busy of late so my date of installation won't be until nearly mid-November. Speaking of electrics what sort of heater are you planning on to keep it warm in those winter months? I'm thinking along the lines of either a single 2kW convection heater or two 1kW ones once insulated and skinned. Cheers Bryant

Look forward to seeing this! I take it it was a multiday job? Cheers Bryant

That looks great. Also thanks for the recommendation. We're going up next Saturday with a view to finalising a quote and a quick visit to Skegvegas to boot

Cheers for that Philou! I'm very lucky to have an understanding wife :-) In the original draft going to park the trains two per loop as some of these loops were 20 feet plus long. To be honest with my current collection it was overkill hence the rethink to unlock more scenic space. Here's my current plan. It all my designs to date (Probably 20 - 30 now) there are no gradients on the running line or the fiddle yard. The station platform have been set up to allow 10 coach trains or an 8 coach HST set. The only gradients will be on the branch which descends at 1 in 50 all the way to a seaside town and small quayside 4 inches below the running lines. At least for now until I do start tinkering yet again!

Hi All, Hope you all are doing well and staying safe out there. Just an update on progress I've been having a rethink regarding the fiddle yard. After much head scratching I concluding things were getting too crowded, particularly on the fiddle yard side for the running lines and the descending branch with respect to my post earlier in the thread on the March 27th. With a little over a foot width for both the branch and the running lines I've come to the realisation as suggested by some members in earlier posts that I would be better off by having the running line within the fiddle yard inself. It means that I get more scope with the single line branch and there would be more room for additional scenic elements. Although I lose some of the length and capacity for the fiddle yard, I do get addtional lines for storage. It also frees up the top left for a decent townscape with the running lines going though on a viaduct. I've done a redesign so that so that any one of the lines can be accessed via a scissors at each end. On the right hand I've managed to set this up so that there are no reverse curves and I'm happy with that. However I wanted to ask a question to this group with regard the scissors arrangement for the top. Has anyone on here has used a similar approach using medium length code 75 points and was is it reliable for smooth running on full length rakes (10 coachs) of rolling stock? I've also been looking at this custom made track as a potential option for the top left. It does save a couple of inches and preserves track spacing:- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153991845116?ViewItem=&item=153991845116 Cheers Bryant

No problem, been busy myself! If you're still stuck is it worth getting a builders merchant to deliver the balance of raw material and getting a second hand mixer to finish it off yourself? Also have you got an electrician lined up for the power supply yet? For insulation you may want to look at this company that I think does the cheapest insulation board that I've found to date:- https://www.insulation4less.co.uk/40mm-celotex-tb3040-2-4m-x-1-2m I'm currently lucky enough to be able to work from home full time but at the same time source and price up material for this project. since my last post I've got a new base prepared for the moving of the right blue shed when I sourced the last few slab layer mixes (the miracle in the depths of lockdown!) from a local Wickes. I can now look at moving it with some help as long as social distancing is relaxed. In the meantime I've managed to get a delivery from e-bay all the slabs I needed and when Buildbase reopened for deliveries I received a good start on an aggregate base, sharp sand and cement. (see projected base in the photo, the 8 by 6 footprint has given me a good start) Given that I'll rebuild the steps too needing further mortar and around 600 bricks I've even managed to persuade SWMBO that a half decent cement mixer will speed up the project and it is now on order. I did get in touch with the shed manufacturer that was kindly recommended by class26 and have been quoted £2600 including assembly for a 20 x 11 plus a delivery charge. It seems reasonable compared to some quotes I've had, when lock down is relaxed enough I'll be definitely be making a trip up there to look at the structures they sell. With luck I'm hoping on having everything in place by Mid August to make the shed order and can spend September fitting it out and getting an armoured cable to it. In the meantime I continue to play with XtrackCAD with potential configurations and I'll post again at the weekend regarding some ideas I have. Oh the agony in trying to decide, I think I'm going to have to tap up the forum for some advice again! lol Cheers for now, stay safe out there everyone, Bryant

On the layout I'm planning currently I aimed for no less than 36" radius on mainlines and no less than 30" radius in shunting areas, hidden areas and fiddle yards. I may rethink the latter based on Junctionmads experience.

Nice size, will look forward to seeing your layout. Also, thanks for the shed tip, have you ordered a bespoke size? How did you find them as a business to deal with? I may give that them a call if they do bespoke and can assembly in the Staffs / Warks area later this year. Their prices seem reasonable and I am impressed by the build specs. There was also a reason for reverting to 10 feet width with respect to space, however I've agreed with SWMBO that the shed can go up 11 feet in width. See the below photo showing the footprint of the shed in 10, 11 and 12 feet of width. There is just a small matter of taking down the small blue shed, moving the right hand shed to the former site of the small one and extending the existing base of the right side. My job over the next few months!

Hi All, Given I'm in lock down for the next week and a half I thought I would share what I have in mind for the entire plan. I'm still more enamoured with loops for the fiddle yard however I've reduced these to 10 lines and increased spacing for access. With a lot of optimisation and a couple of 28" radius curves I have the ability to run 13 trains with up to 10 coaches. This was achieved by having sufficient length for double stacking on both up fiddle yards lines and one on the down and having 3 bidirectional with one dedicated runaround loop. I even managed allow access from the up bay to the Branch using a scissors and double slips, which will be handy for the odd DMU. I thought I would throw it out there for critique, please be gentle as a I'm a novice with respect to prototype but will take on board observations that will result in a better end design. Please feel free to comment! Many thanks, Bryant

I've had a look at whether a double track roundy is feasible on xTrackCAD. It's tight and the question needs to go to the OP whether it's possible to add baseboard to the corners of the 1 foot board to allow the inside loop. If not, then the outside loop low relief goods shed will need to go. Other than that, I've kept to the brief of size, set track and peco short radius points. Hope this helps. Cheers Bryant

A really thought provoking idea, but having a running line bridge and a branch bridge over a watercourse on the fiddle yard side may be an issue. It could however be moved to one of the corners where the track work is a wee bit lighter. One other thought I had, in the fiddle yard is a minimum radius of 30" is sensible? Or could I go as tight as 24" and still have relatively bulletproof running? Reason for asking is that I may have to revert to a 20 by 10 shed due to very few sheds being available in 20 x 12 foot size. Whatever the answer is I still have the luxury of being able to plan for it.

<slams head against wall> Now that is such a schoolboy error. So bad in fact I'm doing him an injustice!

A couple more sketches based on advice given now with an assumed size of 11' 4" x 19' 4". I tried out Joseph Pestells idea which if implemented would save a shed load of points. I'm still leaning towards going with loops but have relaxed a little with regard curved point as long as the as the direction of travel is to the single end. Also they can be straightened as well to give a radius more towards 30" on the inner curve. If anyone else has any suggestions please feel free to comment.

Thankyou for your contributions and comments. In my original post I was intially looking at a 10 x 20 foot shed but some measurements taken in the garden a couple of days ago have made me realise that I can have a larger building. Given the expense, this year I'll be preparing the upper garden for a 12 x 20 foot shed for installation in early 2021. That extra 2 feet in width has opened up an awful lot of space and has eased no end the crampedness in some of the early plan sketches and the running line have benefited no end too. I'm probably going to stay with the loops, although that plan from Joseph_Pestell really turned my head. Will post over the weekend some more sketches.... Cheers Bryant

And further optimisation by moving the left hand junction a few inches upwards has yielded this:-

Thanks for the comments. On the plan my last post I had tried starting the loops early but was like trying to close an almost impossible circle with 30" minimum radius, considering the running lines in the edge of the base board and that I dropped the curved points. I tend to agree about the wasted space and the obvious limitations of the last plan. Like all design iterations at least it's something I can discount. Last night I put together a hydrid plan (Credit to JDW) where I have 4 up and 4 down lines in the fiddle yard and 4 centre roads that can be entered bidirectionally. This plan does allows some shuffling and variation and it is a much better use of space. There were a few compromises to make it work, one being the use of medium radius points only on the running lines (which I probably will relook at) and also a curved point for the centre roads on the left hand side. I even sketched in some sidings in the FY to store single engines and DMU's as well as a passing loop on the bottommost road and starting doodling a station. Overall I'm much happier and may stick with this as a solution unless anyone can see something obvious that I should take heed of.

Hi Everyone Thanks for the responses and comments, they've really been of help. I'll try to answer all feedback and question raised as well as giving a further flavour of what I have in mind. With regard the running lines I want to keep the double track as a roundy in the foreground so that I could also watch the trains go by and to also put a countryside scene and possibly a viaduct. Also I'm keeping in mind a branch line if space permits. I did some research online about curved points and found their radius was closer to 28 inches in old money. I also verified this on XtrackCAD by building a circle of curved point and comparing them against a helix radius. To stay within no less than 30" radius I felt the curved points had to go. I'm taking on board the feedback about single slips (thereby saving me a the best part of 70 quid!!) and switched to diamonds instead. Given that I'm not running anything with a short wheel base over them I'm minded to go the insulfrog option. In this iteration I've tried out bring the line to the fiddle yard as singles and found the yard roads have a minimum of 8.5 up to 11 feet with a rough average across all 12 roads of 9.5 feet. I've used long points on the running lines and mediums in the fiddle yard area. There's still some work to do on the plan particularly in the upper left station approach where the curved points need to go. In my mind the left hand fiddle yard entry is to be partially hidden under a townscape, the right hand junction will be hidden be a tunnel just before the first point starts splitting the line into three at the start of the fiddle yard. I must admit I'm tempted by DavidCBroad's idea of simply having 6 roads clockwise and 6 roads anticlockwise so tomorrow night I'll model this option and see what comes out. I suspect that a decent length train of 9- 10 coaches plus a DMU / light goods will fit, which actually may mean more than 10 minutes per repetition. Also I plan to sketch out a hybrid option mentioned by JDW where I think with careful thought the centre two roads could be made bidirectional. More work to do and thanks once more. Please PM me if any of you would like a copy of the files for your own use. Regards Bryant

Hi All, I'm currently in the garage with with my trusty layout which is around 75% complete which I hope to get finished this year. We had been mulling a house move recently regarding a property owned by a relative that had substantial space in the loft which would serve for my next layout. After thinking this over I realised we would be spending more time refurbishing the property than spending time on our hobbies. I also realised that we had adequate space in our current home if we were to use the space more intelligently for much less cost. So next year I plan with the blessing of my wife to move out of the garage so that we can create extra living space as well as a utility room. The payback for the move is that I can purchase a 20ft by 10ft purpose built shed to house the next layout in the garden giving me the ability to run full length rolling stock. I'll be continuing on with BR blue diesel era, on DCC, using code 75 track and electrofrogs and some initial planning doodling on XtrackCAD has started. My question relates to fiddle yards when running with up to 10 coach trains. I'm looking at using a combination of curved and medium radius electrofrogs in the fiddle yard with an absolute minimum 30" inch radius curves. I also want to keep the ability to watch trains run around too which limits the yard to 12 roads. The design utilises a single slip and a crossover each end of the yard to enable bidirection entry and departure but I am a little concerned at the way I'm maximising yard length. Is this a sensible approach or should I look at dropping all the curved points and keeping the approach as straight as possible using a scissors at either end? Hopefully this is not a silly question, but I'd rather take advice now rather than learn the hard way later on. (It happened a while ago!) All responses gratefully recieved and all the best. Regards Bryant

Had a play on xtrackCAD and it's doable - just. Minimum radius is 3rd, the plan isn't prototypical but should give you a feel as to what could be acheived. Gives you twin track running, parcel bay, three sidings with a small headshunt, a by direction loop and a six track fiddle yard. Hope this helps, PM me if you want the file.

Following from others comments about points I've had a crack on the OP's original layout using XTrackCAD and medium radius Peco streamline points. By eliminating a set of points for the branch line the adjacent platform should accommodate a DMU. The other two platforms should accommodate 5 to 6 coach rakes of MK1 or 2's, I've also put possible scenic breaks as thick black lines. Using other streamline points it should be possible to have at least 8 lines in the fiddle yard. Hope that helps! Cheers Bryant

Thanks, after mulling it over I'll stick with using the good branch as a headshunt. However after reading through all comments I decided to put a double slip on the down line and a curved point on the up line to allow bidirection running on the loop to the upper right. Also today I hit on a solution for the issue of the bay on xTrackCAD, as a double movement would have been needed to cross onto the down line and also there was a space constraint to ensure both lines have access to the fiddle yard. The solution is to butcher four curved points into a short insulfrog diamond and make a customised scissors. The lesson learned here is that when you plan in solitude sometimes one can get a bit short sighted regarding the obvious short comings. Thanks once again for all the feedback! Cheers, Bryant

Thanks all for the feedback I really appreciate all of your advice. To answer the queries raised it's has been built I'm afraid. Yesterday the fiddle yard has has point motors and control board installed. Operationally I was planning on using the good line as a headshunt, however in light of the advice received I am going install another point to change that. Unfortunately I can't change much in the bay area, due to knock on constraints with the fiddle yard off scene. Effectively a section of up line will need to be bidirectional to allow movements out, I guess I'll have to live with that. The loop had intended to be single directional however I'm thinking of losing that double slip and a siding in the bay area and seeing if it could be used on the right side crossover to give the loop access to the up line. At least I haven't wired in the station side point motors yet! Regards Bryant