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    Knuckles

    Posted

    On 07/07/2019 at 16:46, Captain Kernow said:

    This is an interesting subject, Gavin, thanks for sharing your thoughts......

     

     

    Thanks. :)

     

    You make a good point about whether we should lower standards or not to get stuff done.  Currently I'm 34 so statistically I should have a lot of years left, although in reality tomorrow could be my last, god forbid.  I can appreciate the older you get the more this would be a consideration or worry.    As you said do we lower our standards or not?

     

    I think it comes down to Rule 1 again really.  In my modelling I don't consider myself a finescale modeller, but a semi finescale modeller; standatds are chosen differently depending what I'm doing.

    For some items I rivet count, Furness J1....eek.  that was a job and a half.

     

    For other items I am more happy to be more 'impressionistic' or rough.  Depends how much I care about it.  Some things I do, some I don't.

     

    If EVERYTHING was modelled to perfection then little would get done if you are building solo as I am.

     

    Having said that I'm still torn between 00 and P4 for the 17.5 x 11' planned layout.

     

    I want to do it in P4  but the sheer size of it and projected build time (10-20 years?) makes me think 00 might be a better option.....but I hate the nickel silver colour of rails, narrow gauge and fat wheels.  Constantly torn between the two.

     

    I've rebuilt my Duck twice, Henry MKI 3 or 4 times snd done several versions of other ones.

     

    Your 'snapshots' of the past is a good way to look at it actually.  Some things are good to accept as they are for a record of improvement and nostalgia.

     

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. :)

    • Like 1
    Knuckles

    Posted · Edited by Knuckles

    I'm commenting in bold again as the quotes are awkward for lots of quotes.

     

    -

     

    EDWARDIAN: It caused me to reflect that there are Young People, for whom the accumulation of ratings and followers is a way to earn a living, and even younger people, like my daughter, who see that as perfectly worthwhile and to be emulated.

     

    Likes can help pique ratings which can turn into money generation via various means true, that is a plus in some cases.

     

    EDWARDIAN: We do not need conspirators to enslave us.  We do it to ourselves by, for instance, equating researched and substantiated factual reporting by traditional news media with the gossip of social media, or even preferring the latter to the former, which is discredited as "fake news" by the peddlars of 'real' fake news.  

     

    Though perhaps we are nudged along that path by Dark Forces?  They wind us up, point us in their direction of travel, and leave us to do all the walking for them. God, that's bleak. 

     

    Nah, it’s not that bleak.  Divide and conquer, get us all squabbling, then they can control us easier.  Also the Hegelian Dialectic in play in some cases.  Old successful tactics perpetuated.

     

    Muck Bonwick: More nudging? Is there no end to this?

     

    MSN had Nudging, I miss MSN. 

     

    TangoOscarMike: Here's a funny thing. I had never used a like button (since I think that social media is the death of the Internet), until I started using it on RMWeb a couple of months ago.

     

    Several times I found myself having nothing to say, but wanting to make some sort of acknowledgement. And I realised that the like button exists (ostensibly, at least) for precisely this purpose. So I started using it. And it is useful (I choose to regard it as useful) that there are different types of like, to express particular types of approval.

    In normal speech we make all sorts of brief approving noises, some of which are actual words, when we have nothing to add.....

    Compound2632: Think of the "like" button as a form of applause. "It would be inappropriate or forward of me to offer an in-depth critical response to your post but I have found the content interesting or entertaining."

    Jonboy: I quite often finding myself browsing random topics that are of no practical use to my interests, but are interesting to read nonetheless. This leaves me wanting to thank or acknowledge the poster, but not necessarily wasting everyone’s time on written replies or questions where the answers are not going to be put to practical use. The like buttons suit this purpose well in my opinion.

     

    I also often write a reply, go to spell/grammar check it and decide it is not constructively adding to the discussion and delete it again....

     

    Fair points.  I’m not saying the like buttons are completely useless.  In the vid I estimate them to have 10-15% value.  On a personal level I’d often rather a comment worth reading (not short 1 liners) or literally nothing.  It is an opinion thing though.  For me it shows a lack of care or bother, in which case, I’d rather no response at all.

     

    Gordon A: Why use lots of words and time when a pressing the Like button or any other button does the job equally as well.

    I do sometimes think a Dislike button could be useful.

    I much prefer pictures to words.

    Gordon A

     

    Because it doesn’t do the job equally as well, if it did we’d all be walking around the streets dumb thrusting our thumbs at everyone!  It retards conversation and social interactions to nothing more than a numerical statistic.  It also (to me and some others, not all granted) often communicates, “I can’t be arsed or don’t care enough to speak to you.”  Is how it comes across to me anyway. 

     

    Compound2632: A dislike button would have rather antisocial consequences. Better to pass by in silence. Likewise refraining from written comment.

    Which I've not done here!

    Hover the mouse above the symbols and it should give you a text of its meaning.

     

    Wheres_Wally: I remember the good old days when people would craft an OP rather than expecting everyone to sit through a 5 minute ego-trip video. Words, if considered, can be read in seconds. Video demands as much of my life as the creator thinks they can get away with, usually much more than I'm willing to give.

     

    I do craft textual posts, quite often.  Just lately I’ve been crafting them less and less for a few reasons.  One is nower days people use like buttons too much and there is little to no incentive for me to bother my arse putting the effort in when I get jack back.

    Another is if I have a lot to say it’s easier and more fun to make a quick low or no editing video.

    Thirdly SOME people prefer videos and can actually be bothered to watch them, whereas a lot of people can’t be arsed to read a massive bank of text, they’ll see the tome and think ‘sod that’ and pass right on by.  When you approach a video there is a time stamp, if the 5 minutes isn’t worth your time then don’t watch it.  I’ve been on YouTube since 2006, have 2 channels and the platform is clearly a popular method of communicating…as is good old text.

    Horses for courses, trucks for sidings.  Can’t please everyone.

     

    Nick Holiday: I have to agree with TangoOscarMike, Compound, Jonboy et al. The buttons allow you to show your appreciation when you have nothing further to add. To me, they are better than Plonker123 quoting a long post and then saying "wow!!", meaning I have scrolled through half a page of repeated text, for nothing, whilst clogging up the system. The likes are also directly attached to the post in question. When you consider the ramblings of Castle Aching and Tony Wright's threads, and many others, I suppose you need to quote something, otherwise a comment without context would be meaningless, but when I do this I try to edit out as much as possible of the original text to keep things concise. I suspect things are different on Facebook etc.

     

    I agree to a degree, the buttons are better than nothing.  The short “Wow” type comments I also agree are kind of the same as the buttons, in which I’d rather none at all.  Bad init!

     

    AY Mod: Which is precisely why the facility was brought in to RMweb. I didn't like the plain singular 'Like' function though so I bought and adapted a modification script which enabled different types of reactions to be made (a long, long time before Facebook had such), a 'Like' isn't particularly appropriate when someone's said their dog has died for instance

     

    As I said in the video, unless I’m mistaken, I do believe RMweb was the first to add these extra types of ‘likes’ and they are an improvement as they can more effectively communicate particulars.  FB et al followed suit.  They are for sure way better than just the like by itself.

     

    When accompanied by actual text they make a good combination, but solo…not much better.

     

    AY Mod: It was also aimed to reduce the volume of posts we used to experience, part of managing the size of the site.

     

    It certainly worked.  Many conversations were indeed retarded or killed off. Reducing short wow’s is good but reducing proper posts worth reading is bad.  The like buttons have a wide blanket effect reducing both good and bad posts.  I am of course talking about the WHOLE internet, not just RMweb.  As I say, RMweb’s extra types of likes were a step in the right direction repairing the damage the original common like button’s have done to the ‘net.  I like them with text but not in the stead.

     

    Jonny777: I post quite a lot of photos over various threads, and to me the 'like' button is one way of showing that viewers have actually looked at the images. No likes on a number of photos and I would begin to wonder if it was worth going to the trouble of posting any of  them at all. 

     

    Social variance of view, feel, values and opinion is always an interesting study.  As I keep harping on, I’d choose no likes but comments worth reading any day, when I’ve spent ages crafting a textual post, video or model etc and have no comments but a few ‘likes’ I get angry and think ‘FUDGE!’ ‘Why bother.’

    Comments can be negative too, especially if constructive, which so far on this thread we indeed are talking now.  Just like it should be.  If we all agreed on everything 100% there would be zero learning.

     

    Ruston: I wonder if the OP remembers, many years ago, a thread on this very forum where people moaned about how folks would post "me too" in response to someone saying how they liked something. That was before the like etc. buttons were added and you'd get a whole list of people saying nothing worthwhile but who were showing their appreciation for the poster's work and them having taken the time to post it. 

     

    This OP hasn’t been on RMweb as long as he has other forums so the thread in question I don’t remember, but as been said the short comments are pretty pointless and annoying I agree.

     

    Ruston: The OP's argument here is that these buttons are taking away conversation but I don't think that's true. I don't think that if those buttons were taken away that my threads would be full of conversation; I just think that they would be still as empty but I would have no idea if anyone appreciated anything I was posting and so I wouldn't bother posting them at all.

     

    OP must vehemently but respectfully disagree.  I’m drawing from my personal pool of experience since circa 2006 on various platforms so I know what I’m on about, at least in my experiential reality of what has happened; you may have had a different experience.  

    As said in the video itself.  I used to really enjoy carefully crafting a post, now I don’t do it as often.  Thoughtful text, picture placements etc and then once posted there was a LOT f conversation. 

    At least for me with my posts.  It was worth doing.  Since the like button was invented on various platforms and became mainstream, my posts on these forums (not just RMweb) have little to NO comments and conversation at all. 

    Some of my posts may have 10-20 or 50 likes etc but as to comments little to non. 

    Yet IN THE PAST there would be a lot of comments worth reading, both good, bad and suggestive on whatever I posted.  It was fun and encouraging and showed people were genuinely interested and you could learn what they liked, didn’t or how to improve things.  Clicking an icon doesn’t cut the mustard and communicates very little.

    So what I’m saying is, I’m not moaning based on a whimsical fantasy, I’m moaning based on the ‘Good old Days’ of when things were better.  My arguments can be proved empirically by posting lots of examples, but there isn’t much point.

    -

    Mallard60022 posted a BOMB about to go off!   Pretty funny.

    -

    Well, this thread is more how things USED to be.  Genuine conversation with a variance of views where we can interact and learn better.  Good example. 

    Many thanks to you all for contributing. :)

    Knuckles

    Posted · Edited by Knuckles

    Nope but I'll watch it tonight with some decaf coffee to relax, many thanks.   

     

    I know a lot about what is really going on in the world.  Been researching loads of stuff almost constantly since around 2008.  Most don't want to hear it or are too affected with the resulting cognitive dissonance that ensues and subsequently blame me for their hurt feelings.  We are brainwashed to keep our heads in the sand and attack any whom may be trying to pull them out.  Sad but true.

    • Friendly/supportive 1
    Knuckles

    Posted · Edited by Knuckles

    Well, my skills are still at the basic level they were when I took up my scalpel for the first time in 2015, so I need many more years modelling and to get a heck of a lot better before I face this problem.

     

    Nice to have something to look forward to!

     

    You gotta have a go to improve for sure, but over time…watch out!

     

    I've stuggled with this for too long, I have finally come up with a plan for something relatively familiar (the town I live in) that has potential for growth/expansion, if and when the space becomes available but it has taken years to get to this point.  I have found that focusing on a real place, where I am constrained by the layout of the real thing, has really focused the mind.

     

    I’m assuming you mean modelling a real prototype where there is less thinking involved as it’s all there (or was) for you to know what to do.

     

    Oh yes, I can relate to this    I recently got a 3D printer with which, in theory, I could make anything at all.  What happens?  I'm stuck in thinking about all the possibilities so nothing happens.  There's the old adage that perfection is the enemy of the good.

     

    Start with Thingy verse downloading freebies if you can’t yet 3D model.  I’ve never used Thingy verse but it can be a good start to get something printed…or use it for ideas.

     

    Yes. And as G.K. Chesterton said, if a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing badly.

     

    Never heard that before but it makes sense if the intent is simply, ‘Get on with it’ and worry about improving it later.

     

    I guess the real question is who are you doing it for? Are you doing it to seek the approval of your peers, or is it for your personal satisfaction? If it gives you more anguish than pleasure, what's the point?

     

    That could sound like 'you should quit and find something else to do', however I hope you do carry on (although I am possibly just self-interested as a happy consumer of the things you make  ).

     

    Not quoting the whole post but I certainly get where you are coming from and appreciate the time spent writing it.  I can see the fun of the management side on video games personally yet can also see why it might send you into a coma too!  Glad you like my stuff. :) Appreciated.

    I agree in what you are saying about incentive, firstly it has to be to please the maker of such things then anything else is a bonus.  Doing something for approval is an exercise in futility for sure.  Can’t please everyone.

     

    That's not to say I'm not guilty of the same thing, I too have wrestled with the 'progress vs. perfection' dilemma. I just hope that I have found a middle ground that enables me to carry on enjoying my hobby and wanted to share my experience.

     

    I'm not trying to recommend you a path to follow, just thinking out loud really.

     

    Nah that’s cool.  I need to learn the middle ground.  I’m wired to struggle to figuratively see greys, I do see them but mostly I think in black and whites so modelling is a PITA at times.  On one hand as well as 00 I do some P4 modelling and count all the rivets etc (have to in 3D modelling for example), and on other modelling projects I’m happy if things are a bit ‘meh’ and pass the 2-3 foot rule.  It’s a contradictory mindset but ultimately it depends how much I care about something.  If I’m modelling wagons or coaches on the desk for example I’m not too bothered if is isn’t the ultra modern super detail yet other things I care about every farty thing.

     

    'let's just start building and see what works'

     

    I used to do that in the early days and kept learning the hard way it often doesn’t work!  At least for me, wasted time, effort and money too many times.  So now I plan for age before starting things, but either approach has its merits.  I’d like to return to the simpler ways but it always bites me in the ring.

     

    -

     

    Thanks to you all for posting. :)

    EDIT:  Ditched the 'quotes' and replied in BOLD instead as they are being buggy.

    Knuckles

    Posted · Edited by Knuckles

    Quote

    Perhaps they 'liked' it ironically?

     


     

    Interesting and much in what you say.

     

    It's preferable to post a comment, but, realistically, there is not always the time to do so.  Further, some content that I like or find skillful lies outside my areas of main interest or knowledge and, really, I wouldn't have anything of value to contribute! Simply replying "wow!" each time would just be a long-hand version of the like button!

     

    What you did not mention is the addictive endorphin release of social media approbation, to which our 'like' buttons are cousins, and which is another negative effect and a distraction from modelling and proper critical evaluation.  That said, there is an upside, too, as some of us gain much needed confidence and encouragement from ratings. It is sometimes hard to judge one's own work, but ratings can let you see when you do, or do not quite, hit the spot.  There again, however, comments are of even greater value, and I'd have to agree with you that the ratings buttons can breed a laziness of response, but at least they're a response!   

     

    Thanks for the comment.  I agree the use of quick one or two liners gets frustrating too, as you said a long hand like button.  On a personal note I’d rather people type nothing than a quick ‘Brill’  

    Quote

    What you did not mention is the addictive endorphin release of social media approbation

     

    Ah yes, well there is that too, we all feel it.  I get caught up in the ‘Forum Trap’ constantly cycling the forums looking for some kind of ‘feel’ based on a response and I agree it can be pretty damaging and pointless after a while. 

    Another thing I didn’t mention is how ‘likes’ can help your content pique algorithms and get your video/posts ranked higher and thus on some platforms with certain set ups that can equate to more money.  There is that too which can be a good thing but also bad when everyone is constantly ‘reminding’ us to “Smash That Like Button”  Ugh.

    Quote

    There again, however, comments are of even greater value, and I'd have to agree with you that the ratings buttons can breed a laziness of response, but at least they're a response!

     

    Yep, better than nothing, but really, if I could have the choice of 10,000 ‘likes’ and just 20 comments worth reading I’d choose the comments any day.

    Quote

    Hi Knuckles,

     


     

    Your video is most well observed. The whole of the internet is nothing more than an electronic book burning exercise connected to the reduction of free speech. I note you clarified your use of the word retard to this regard thus keeping those that are "hard of thinking" happy.

     

     

    Thanks, everyone these days are offended at certain ‘buzz’ words due to the social conditioning programs and attack on free speech with political correctness government (Control-Mind) religion that is being injected into us at every turn.  I will thus choose now controversial words to put spanners in their works and make people think.  Good init!  But yeah, the word retard isn’t derogatory as a default setting, people seem to jump at certain things.  Conditioned to trigger.

    “You CAN’T say thaaat!”

    “Too late, I just did!”

     

     

     

     

     

    Quote

    As you describe the way in which you craft your posts with written descriptions and illustrative photographs, you remind me of the effort I put into my own posts for the same reasons, only to get six "Likes" and two "Craftsmanship/clever". Should anyone actually post a comment or question it is far more interesting and shews that someone has actually read and found your work genuinely interesting.

     


     

    Gibbo.

     

     

    Exactly this, exactly.  I don’t post no where near as often as I used to and I don’t spend as much effort crafting the posts together as often as I do because before I’d be trying to write and present a well thought out, interesting to read and view (pics) post and at the end of it, since the like button, it just isn’t worth it very often.    All that effort for a few numbers (likes) that do nothing…..no ta.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Quote

    I liked the fact that you have expressed your views on this subject!

     


     

    The 'like' button rules (and in some cases ruins) too many people's sense of calm and equilibrium. Too many people judge themselves, too harshly, because of this.

     

    One way round this that I have found to be quite effective is not to care what people think!

     

    (Of course, I probably do care more than I let on, but I do try not to, although I do know people, for whom the number of 'likes' that they receive is far too important a factor in their sense of self-worth (in my view, anyway).

     

     

     

    PS. I think that some of what I said above is a rather less erudite version of what Edwardian said!

     

    Hi Cap’n!  I often try to express views.  Often I try to bring out points that others don’t want to talk about, can make you a target at times but it’s needed.

    Quote

    One way round this that I have found to be quite effective is not to care what people think!

     

    Oh yes I agree, last 8 or so years I’ve given up caring what people think, or trying to fit in or to please everyone.  Isn’t possible so screw it.  I want to know what people think more for the social interaction (basic social wants/needs) aspect rather than feeling valued.  I’m done basing my value on the shifting sands of an ever culturally changing meme.  Bad init!

    Quote


    (Of course, I probably do care more than I let on, but I do try not to, although I do know people, for whom the number of 'likes' that they receive is far too important a factor in their sense of self-worth (in my view, anyway).

    PS. I think that some of what I said above is a rather less erudite version of what Edwardian said!

    Yeah, if receiving a ton of likes but no real interaction with people, then other than monitory considerations, socially speaking it’s a bit pointless.  I know we are often busy but if we truly like what people have done then actually saying something and having an interaction is worth way more than a digital number.  

     

     

     

    Quote

    I understand the sentiments behind your video, but wonder if doing away with the ability to simply acknowledge appreciation/understanding/agreement of something might not end-up cluttering threads with umpteen one-word posts which might ultimately be more frustrating? I get a little annoyed when viewing new content, to open a thread, scroll to the latest post, only to find it's either just a single, or at most 4 or 5 words which don't add anything of interest/insight or pose any question. Maybe there'd have to be a minimum word-count to enable a post to be made? 

     


     

    Here on RMweb, we can see who it is that's "liked" something, so there's nothing to stop one from encouraging the liker to open-up and engage a little more.

     

    In this age of the www and its multitude of platforms, mobile phones, texting, so-called social media etc, it seems that humanity is saying far more than it has ever done. Sadly though, a growing amount of it is (IMHO) of very little value 

     

     

    I agree and addressed this in the video briefly with the mention of “Cool!”

    It is better than nothing but truthfully, as has been said….really it’s not much better than the like button.  An actual sentence or 3 is waaaay more valuable to me.   It has been quite aggravating before to receive an email saying you got a comment to a vid that you have been hoping to read something worth reading and it’s just a one liner, it still shows a lack of bothering and would rather people not bother most the time.  

     

    Quote

    Facebook is just a means for people to go 'look at me', mostly it is vacuous content but there is some interesting content within groups if you can avoid the politically charged echo chamber groups.  I haven't posted anything to Facebook other than responding politely where I have been tagged in photos and I feel much better for it.  Facebook is designed to trigger dopamine rushes like all the online games that exist (candy crush et al),, this rush keeps you on the application which is what they want in order to secure advertising revenue.

     


     

    Instagram is all about selling 'your best life', again not a real representation of life.

     

    I haven't done Twitter but I guess it works in the same way

     

    Forums like this though you don't want to see lots of posts going 'I like this', it will detract from the content, using Dave F 's ongoing photographs thread, each post can get tens of likes, it would be impossible to digest the thread if those showing appreciation for the images had to type out a response.

     

    Yup, get us addicted to using their ‘services’ so we keep giving our information away so they can sell it to the cheapest buyer so the keep raping us with tailored adverts to then give them more money.  It is of course NWO tracking of each person at all times.  Type www.itanimulli.com (Illuminati backwards – satanic law of reversal) in your browser and see where it re-directs too, dare ya. 

    Of course they have their cover story to inoculate most people from looking into things and waking up to even the basics of what is going on in a large scale context.  Even better, try typing that in FB Messenger and see what it says!   It won’t let you send it because it is “Deemed offensive or otherwise disallowed” yet you can type all manner of !”£$%^&* without a hitch…riiiiight!

    Disclaimer – I don’t consider myself a ‘conspiracy theorist’ just because I venture into the field of hot potatoes.  I don’t make theories up, besides which the exact phrase was coined in the Warren Report to be used as a weapon to switch people’s intellect off and stop questioning things.  Works like a charm.

    Quote

    it seems that humanity is saying far more than it has ever done. Sadly though, a growing amount of it is (IMHO) of very little value.[/quote]

    Quote

    Oh yes, you can say that again.  Very true.

    Ok, thanks to ye all for talking about it.  Much appreciated.

    Have a good day.

    • Like 2
    Knuckles

    Posted

    Yeah.  Literally over 100 revisions of the same basic plan I have saved, many of which each file has been saved 10 or 20 times over too.

     

    Absolute madess.

     

    But when your space is cramped and you move 1 track you have to move 7 more to rejiggle everything.

     

     

     

    It's like that game with 8 squares in a 9 square space.  Want to shuffle this one turnout?  Nope, move the whole sodding thing.

    Knuckles

    Posted · Edited by Knuckles

    Peers, yep!  Grammar has bever been my strongest point.

     

    I do agree generally with your above, if I wound you up it's a consequence rather than an intent.  I certainly don't think it is good to throw f bombs around willy nilly but neither do I think it should be banned.

     

    To me, I kind of want people to just think about what they believe and why, where they got the ideas from and to evaluate where the value is, if any, so a little 'bad' language here n there where it wouldn't usually be may raise some eyebrows and make me seem inconsiderate (and a prick!?) and I accept that as a possible reality and consequence of the self expression and subtle message I'd like to communicate.  I am considerate in some ways though, certainly won't be using c's!   Culturally it seems a lot worse....again no idea why, just collectively certain words we've all been  conditioned/brainwashed/taught to see in a negative light.

     

    Thing is, one thing I learned the hard way in life (over and over until the penny finally dropped) is that it is impossible to please everyone if you intend standing your ground on any view or issue.  By default someone has to get erked......so I stopped bothering!

    • Agree 1
    Knuckles

    Posted · Edited by Knuckles

    Can't stand censorship.  I also have an issue with the concept that certain words are taboo or evil.  Who said so?

     

    Collective cultural memes (real memes not pictures with text on) and social opinion perpetuated blindly by everyone following the teachings of their piers.  As I conclude....that's literally all it is.

     

    Thus it's foundation is nothing but shifting sands having no solid argument to truly establish itself as a truth.

     

    Bad init!

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