Silver Sidelines

Hello Jamie, you get the prize - I hadn't spotted the different detail on the front buffer beam. I did check some of the cab sides to see if any of those were without rivets (welded) to match the tender. Thanks Ray

Thank you Leander for taking the time to add some pictures. As I have just said above I know very little about Black Fives. However I am not sure what your picture is showing as the sides of your tender are showing plenty of rivets. Cheers Ray

Thank you Mikkel for your continuing support. I have been impressed by how relatively trouble free the Hornby Black FIves appear to be. The dome issue with 44694 (R3323) is well documented and I suspect the model was one of the first to be produced after Hornby took their business away from Sanda Khan. Certainly the box code doesn't have an SK prefix. Perhaps the 'new ladies' were still learning the business when this model was made. Regards Ray

Thank you pH - You sound to be of a similar vintage to myself. I have to own up to knowing very little about Black Fives. I would comment that my ABC locoshed book for 1959 (supposed correct to November 1958) shows 45116 at 26B but by November 1960 it is shown moving on to 16D. Yes 45156 was still at Newton Heath at the end of 1958. And as you note 45157 was at 65B both in 1958 and 1960. It has been an interesting exercise trying to read shed plates off models, off pictures of models and even off old pictures of the real engines (with or without a date).

I have lost count of how many Black Fridays there are in November but I used each Friday (and some of the other days) to stock up on more of Hornby’s Super Detail Black Fives. One of Hornby’s newer models with Combined Top Feed, 45190 aka R2904 I bought 45190 my first super detail Black Five back in 2011. I was underwhelmed by how lightweight the engine was and how little it could haul. As a result it spent the next few years resting at the end of the engine shed headshunt. Most recently I have been following Dan’s Stranraer Harbour thread on RMweb and have been inspired to revisit my Black Five. http:// https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140736-now-with-videos-stranraer-‘themed’-loft-layout-1959-64/ Some older models, 44781 and 44871 aka Hornby R2686A&B I don’t think that I had ever looked inside the engine but the front end of the boiler and smoke box is empty. Despite what it doesn’t say on the box, all the super detail models that I have seen are DC ready. The early models have an eight pin socket in the front of the boiler whilst the later models have had the socket moved to the tender. To make room for the digital chip the front of the boiler and smokebox are empty—even for the models where the socket is in the tender. Of course running a 12 volt DC analogue layout I can take advantage of the space reserved for the chip and add some lead ballast. A newer model, 44694 aka Hornby R3323 Out of the box the Hornby Black Five weighs between 240 and 255gm. Hornby have produced a large number of models each subtly different. Having the digital socket in the engine or in the tender will account for part of this difference in weight but I think there must be other factors in play which I have not been able to identify. (Different recipe for the metal in the chassis?) Sadly I didn’t keep detailed records of the start weights of all the different models but I thought 44694 was a 240gm engine whilst 44908 was a 255gm model. 44694 at 240gm 44908 at 255gm My layout is rather up and down and experimenting showed that I needed an engine weight approaching 295gm. Again after more experimentation I found it possible to add small rectangles of lead to the smoke box totalling around 40gm. To get even closer to my target value I also added lead beneath the digital socket and in one case inside the top of the boiler. c10gm lead beneath the socket covered with insulating tape c15gm lead along the top of the boiler – clipped into the top feed and held by insulating tape I cut pieces of lead from ‘1/8th inch sheet’ as used by roofers for flashing. For slotting into the smoke box the pieces must be less than 23mm length. I used a selection of widths starting at 18mm maximum, through 17,16, 14.5 down to 13 or 12mm. Depending on the actual thickness of the lead sheets you might be able to go down to less than 10mm. The largest sheets have to be slid in first at an angle to avoid the chimney spigot. The smaller sheets can then follow added horizontally. I have deliberately left the sheets loose so that they could be removed at a later date. Does all this weight in the front of the boiler make the engine front heavy? Yes, but...... The engine to tender connection for both the old and new models, probably more by accident than design, transfers the weight of the tender to the engine and helps to hold the back of the engine down. For the newer models with the digital chip in the tender there is even more space in the engine for lead! 45190 aka Hornby R2904 a newer model with the socket in the tender c20gm lead in place of the digital socket - held in place with double sided tape. As noted above Hornby have produced a range of models and I have attempted to catalogue those that I might have seen in service in the late 1950s and 1960s omitting any weathered models. (I doubt this list is complete as I keep spotting ‘new’ Hornby models.) Hornby BR era Super Detail Black Fives I have listed the models by running number showing also the Shed Code printed on the model. I have then listed the different liveries that were carried. I suspect that the plain black livery was only applied in the middle to late 1960s just before the end of steam. Similarly some models have the top lamp iron moved down and to the right. This again was an end of steam feature associated with running beneath the overhead wires dating from the early 1960s. Lamp Iron centre top 44668 aka Hornby R2322 Lamp Iron right hand down a bit 44781 aka Hornby R2686A The Black Fives were introduced by Sir William Stanier before the Second World War and were completed in the 1950s under the direction of HG Ivatt. The engines were built by both the LMS and BR (LMR), and outside contractors, with the result that there were numerous differences between class members. Hornby have modelled three types of boiler, distinguishable by the position of the top feed: forwards, rear or combined. Top Feeds, rear (top) and forward (bottom) There was also a difference in the wheel spacing on some engines between the centre and rear drivers – which might have been due to a difference in firebox size. Hornby have cunningly engineered a plastic insert slotted into the mazac chassis to carry the rear wheel bearings which can be turned through 180 degrees to provide either the required long or short wheel spacing. I have identified three different tender types: fully riveted, part riveted where the sides have been smoothed, and fully welded where both the back and sides are smooth. In addition tenders come with an Early Emblem, or a Late Crest. Fully Riveted tender Part Riveted tender Fully Welded tender During their short lifetime it is quite likely that whilst visiting ‘the works’ engines might receive tenders and boilers different from the ones originally fitted. I have carried out some random checks of pictures on Flickr and to date have not come across any conflicts with Hornby’s models. When you have added all the lead possible, the engine may still underperform. Remember it is Hornby and you do need to check and adjust the phosphor bronze pickups or wipers on the tender wheels. Frequently these springy bits of metal stick out so far that it is reminiscent of driving an old car with the handbrake on. (If it is an analogue layout and the track is clean you probably don’t need the tender pickups anyway and they can be flattened.) Tender bottom plate Further sources of unwanted friction are the axle slots in the plastic keeper (bottom plate) for the tender. I had to run a drill bit through the slots and shave some of the plastic from around the openings for the socket and the rear coupling. I first noticed the issue with one of the later models and wondered whether it might be due to wear on the factory moulding tools resulting in an oversize moulding with reduced clearances. On the whole I have been very impressed with the Super Detail Black Fives. The cab wind deflectors are particularly delicate and don’t cope very well with travel by Royal Mail but that is common to a lot of Hornby’s models. The Christmas Quiz model 44694 aka Hornby R3323 The only real problem model that I have come across has been 44694. When it first arrived I thought of posting its picture for a Christmas Quiz – spot what was wrong. Even before it arrived I had discovered that the large steam dome was likely to be back to front. I had not factored in that the cab wind deflectors would be upside down. For good measure I also had to reattach the whistle that had been broken off in transit. Fixing the dome was easier than I imagined. I made a pilot hole by rotating a tiny drill bit by hand into the plastic spigot inside the boiler. I then reamed the hole out with a Philips screwdriver until the dome popped off. If you are careful there will still be enough of the original plastic spigot to pop it back in place, after rotating through 180 degrees. The cab wind shields will have to stay upside down – who is going to notice? Lastly two of my favourite models; 45156 Ayrshire Yeomanry and 45157 Glasgow Highlander. The latter was a real Scottish engine shedded in Glasgow for most of its life. The former spent the final years of its life in the Manchester area. 45157 Glasgow Highlander aka Hornby R2449 Hornby correctly depict 45156 with its British Railways combined dome and top feed – not to be confused with the currently preserved engine, originally numbered 45337, which now carries the Ayrshire Yeomanry name (and number) but which has a separate dome and top feed. 45156 Ayrshire Yeomanry aka Hornby R2555 Addendum 03.01.21 Since publishing this Post I have gleaned further information on the different models produced by Hornby. It had escaped my notice that some models have fluted coupling rods and some have plain rods. Also some engines have an addition to the left hand cross head which I am told is left over from when early engines were fitted with vacuum pumps. Modified Cross Head with connection for vacuum pump. I have also updated ‘The Table’ above with some details of the sound fitted engines. The first two sound models came with LokSound v3.5 chips and will run and play sound on analogue. The newest sound model is TTS fitted and presumably will run on analogue but only play sounds on digital. Another Quality Control issue One of my latest purchases did not run well – the wheels beneath the cab seeming to jump around. On closer inspection I could see that the two rear sand pipes had been fitted on the wrong sides. Instead of the pipes being recessed behind the coupling rods they were stuck outwards pressing against the rods. These were factory fitted pipes and I was unsure that would be able to rectify without cutting through the pipes. I used a very sharp blade and started to cut the glue around the junction between the pipe and the sand box. The glue cut quite easily and after not a lot of effort the pipe (with its spigot) could be prised free. I don’t know what glue Hornby had used but it did not seem to have fused the plastic parts together. Perhaps the sand pipes are nylon which would not fuse to the plastic sandbox? 45458 - yet another Scottish Engine One more picture of a Scottish engine! Hornby have 45458 with a Scottish Region blue background to its smokebox number and shed plates. The 66A shed number is Glasgow Polmadie from where the engine was withdrawn. It seems a strange choice of shed plate as a web search suggests that 45458 was a 63A Perth based engine for most of its life and may only have been at Polmadie for a few months before withdrawal.

You have been busy, fascinating. You do say DCC control so is this yet another reason for my staying analogue? Might there also be an issue with your choice of digital chip? Regards Ray

Hi Dan, a good sequence of pictures. Off stage so to speak but have you seen evidence for a B1? I wonder whether a V2 might have been the preferred choice. Ray

Yes the coaches look good. I guess the roof colour would have been made up of six parts soot and four parts red oxide from brake dust, or any permutation you fancy? Remind me why the 2P is fanciful? Is it just a case of the 2P and Heljan model would not have existed together? The 2Ps were still in evidence at the Dumfries end of the line in 1961/2. Cheers Ray

Nato Black - an interesting thought. Does it come as a water colour that in the future could be washed off? I see further down that the new Year is going to be busy

Good Morning Dan There are three ages of Bachmann Thompsons: Early, quite early and the later super detail. They all have different ride heights. This Post I wrote earlier might help: For those of us with the luxury of large radius curves Bachmann Mk1s can be close coupled using Hornby R8220 (preferred) or Bachmann short cranked couplings, in both cases doing away with the need for additional corridor connectors. Again there is an old Post: Cheers Ray

Thank you John. Obtuse? Is that the same as lateral thinking? I like the idea, not all that is new is better. Perhaps too many bells and whistles and not enough attention to basic details. Cheers Ray

Thank you Stove Pipe a good list. I do wonder about the models listed as being too low. I have come across numerous all be them being second hand which were not too low. I do wonder whether Bachmann corrected the problem during production? Cheers Ray

Models such as Glory are cheap and generally good runners. The first Bachmann Warships sit too low on the chassis Eclipse comes to mind. I think there was a dimensional error with the chassis itself. The second generation such as Hermes seem to me to have a problem with gears / wheels. If my memory serves me correctly I have had models where the gears on the wheel sets seem to be too big - might Bachmann have cut the axle slots in the bogie castings too deep? Fitting an old body to the latest chassis would make an interesting exercise. Cheers Ray

I am not knowing - but might there be two rakes which changed over at the weekend to allow one to be cleaned and serviced? You are correct, all sorts of adaptors to fit ex LNER coaches to Mk1s. I do believe there were similar issues when the MetroCammel Pullmans were introduced and had to be topped and tailed with older Pullmans or Gresley BGs. Cheers Ray

Ah yes - but they are Hornby. Perhaps some answers: I have taken the hint and put together some images. The following pictures should tell their own story. First Sir Brian Robertson, Class 42, D800 one of the original Bachmann models. This is followed by Roebuck, Class 43, D841 one of the latest models. Ignoring the position of body fixing screws Sir Brian fits nicely on top of the chassis from Roebuck – with one caveat. The chassis from Roebuck has a lump of metal beneath the cab and seating in Roebuck has been altered to fit. The seating unit from Sir Brian is deeper and would need to be trimmed to match the unit in Roebuck. There are other scenarios – just swap the seating units (and the lighting units). Food for thought? Cheers Ray The pictures below highlight the fact that the seating unit in Sir Brian is too deep to allow the shell to sit down on to the Roebuck chassis.

Looking good, remind me why it cannot be the train for Newcastle, Was there a Friday night train from Newcastle with Gresley stock that had to be returned to the north east on the Saturday. Leaving Stranraer it would still have had an ex LMS engine which would have had to come off at Carlisle. Ray

Sorry Chris have been busy playing with Black Fives an update later perhaps. Regards Ray

Not knowing but your truck is bauxite = fitted. Buxton is too far for a loose coupled load to Stranraer? Ray

Hello Dan I was thinking lime - some of the local soils arevery heavy (clayey) and regularly get a dose of lime. Just a thought. Ray

You have been busy and thank you for sharing useful information. My Warships are out sight just now so I cannot immediately say whether the 42 and 43 bodies are interchangeable. I might guess that they are. Cheers Ray

I like your solution. You must think that the BluTack provides sufficient adhesion and doesn't compromise the sound. I modified a Bachmann Deltic to fit upwards pointing speakers in the fuel tanks - firing the sound up into the space for the flywheels and drive shafts. Relatively straightforward and I thought worked well. Cheers Ray

Good work, the STD 5MT has scrubbed up well. Cheers Ray

Agree - in fact watching the trains go by is immensly restful. Recording and controlling - tell me about it. With care and patience, and a DS Controller life can appear to be simpler. Cheers Ray

Thank you Mikkel, Orion is often clearly visible (with our dark skies). Ray

Thank you Bill for those supportive comments. Kolhapur is a newer Bachmann Jubilee and they all now have the middle black line. It is pictured next to one of Bachmann's old Scenecraft signal boxes. There used to be a lot around - very often the steps needed gluing back together. Cheers Ray