chaz

4 hours ago, RFS said:

The problem I found with Traincontroller's line-up in a block is that trains are moved up only at the loco's threshold speed.  Far too slow for me, as the train that left is usually ready to re-enter at the other end long before the line-up has completed. Seems the process was designed for locos in a staging track rather than full-length trains.

 

With my process, a schedule is started to move the next train up as an action on the release of the first block when the train leaves.

The low speed moves may not be a problem. It may well be possible to leave the first section empty so that a train leaving the last section can run through the scenic part of the layout without stopping and find an empty section waiting. In practice most traffic will stop in the station and on the narrow gauge nothing moves that fast anyway.

If the "move-up" process is very slow could it be triggered as soon as the train on the last section start to move? Little chance of the train moving up colliding with the departing train.

Chaz

8 hours ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

You asked if it was possible with DCC and it is.

 

If cost is no issue but time and work is, its possible Train Controller software package and Infra Red position detectors wired to feedback units (and a suitable DCC command station if yours is not Train Controller compatible) will do the job. You will have to initially configure the software on screen so that it knows the fiddle yard tracks are split into short blocks between the Infrared detectors but from then on the software should deal with the 'Auto Staging'.

 

Perhaps in any future questions you could give more specific information about your criteria and your model railway hardware to help those reading your questions.

 

Regards

 

Nick

Nick, thanks for that useful and positive shove in the right direction!

You asked for more specific information so here is what I have planned so far.

The scale will be 1:48 and the gauge 16.5mm (so On30). Track will be Peco code 100 on the staging and hand-laid spiked code 83 on wood ties on the scenic area.

The staging is a two track oval, but the station is on a single track line. The single line will divide into two just out of sight of the viewed scenic section. The two turnouts will be lightly biased (either a spring or a counterweighted crank) so that trains leaving the scenic section always take the right hand road. Trains entering the scenic section will trail through the switch blades - the live crossings will have their polarity sorted with frog juicers.

All locomotives will have TCS WOW decoders with keep-alives. There is ample room in the locomotives for these. They have been purchased and I have made a start on fitting them (2 down - 10 to go!).

I haven't decided on a DCC control system yet. The choice may well be influenced by the need to work with any automation arrangement for the staging. I use Roco Multimaus handsets on my home railway and like these so a Z21 system looks a good choice - yes?

I have an Apple Notebook (laptop) which can be used with the layout if it is needed.

You mention IR detection. Could I use current amplifier detectors instead? I have lots of the MERG ones ready to go. 

Chaz

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

I think TCS have supported RailCom in their decoders for a few years, but I haven't used them for a while, so someone else needs to confirm things.     I don't think TCS support Asymmetric DCC braking. 

 

 

A completely different low-ish tech approach is a few cameras and some monitors, or cameras linked to a computer, tablet or smartphone.   From those, you can see the fiddle-yard and thus move the trains manually.   Requires that you (the human operators) can identify each train from the camera in order to select and drive it.  
One solution to the identification problem is to place "train fridge magnets" on a board showing the fiddle yard, and move them by hand as you drive trains up the fiddle yard.   All fairly low-tech (the cameras being the highest tech bits), and doesn't require any intervention on the track, DCC system, decoder types, etc.. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

Thanks Nigel. You obviously understand my dilemma. The project is a model railway - it's not an electronic or computer project. if I can enlist electronics and/or a computer to automate what might be an irksome task I would - provide it doesn't divert too much of my time and effort away from my primary focus. 

The fridge magnets method might well have mileage - the only drawback might be that an operator might just forget to move them. He/she could recover the position by going round the back and looking. I'm not sure of the need for cameras but they too might have merit. 

I envision at least two operators on at a time. One is in front of the scenic part of the layout (probably sitting to one side) and doing the nice stuff - the other is behind managing the oval staging (storage area). It's the latter role (the short straw) that I was contemplating automating. 

A rota will be an essential - the mug who gets lumbered with the staging role will have to be promised a go "round the front". 

Chaz

12 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

@Nigelcliffe for you option d) the computer program will track without any feedback of the loco id provided you identify  or confirm where the loco is at the start of the session. If you only ever use the computer to move the locos and trains then it will always know where they are.

 

The advantage for Railcom is that it will identify the postion of all Railcom enabled locos at switch on irrespective of whether the computer, or hand of God moved them to where they are - but it does require everything to support Railcom, not just the decoders

Thanks Iain. I see from the tag at the bottom of your posts that you have experience of electronic control.

Can you tell me please would the TCS WOW decoders work with Railcom? One of your posts elsewhere on forum suggests they do.

Another important factor for me is that I would not want a solution that would divert a large amount of time and effort away from the models and into electronics. The cost is not an issue, the time and work required might well be.

If you think I can solve the problem of managing the staging area (fiddle yard) of the layout with electronics, rather than using a "dedicated" human I'd be grateful if you could give me a pointer or two.

Chaz

12 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Yes its possible.   As to how to do it, depends on a lot of factors.  Here's a few suggested approaches:

 

a)  crude power-off relays to drop the track power to sections of track, and restore when movement wanted.  But, a loco with a big stay-alive might just drive right through the section.  And stopping trains instantly isn't nice. 

 

b)  Asymmetric DCC braking sections.  Probably the simplest and cheapest mechanism to implement.  But, requires all loco decoders to support the Asymmetric Braking mechanism; which means essentially Lenz, Zimo, ESU (v4 and later), and a few others.   

 

c)  Relay switching of a "DCC all trains stop" signal into different sections.   Should work with any decoder, but the track isolation needed might be complex. 

 

d)  Full computer tracking of trains and their movement.  Not that hard if you have section detection AND can tell the computer the identity of a train as it enters the storage area.   The identification stage could be any of:  human tells computer (ie. a means whereby the human tells the computer "please park train XYZ entering south FiddleYard",  track identification method (eg. RailCom, but limits decoder makers to those supporting RailCom, and places limits on DCC system as well),  non-track identification method (eg. RFID tags on locos, and other methods). 

 

e)   Robot throttle device to look after trains.   Several around which could do it as software projects.  In the commercial area for LocoNet based systems the CML LocoShuttle which can definitely do the job (when connected to some external sensors),  there are ways of making its use quite slick.   The NCE "minipanel" can sort of do it, but would have quite a few limitations on how to deal with locomotive addresses; its not really intended for this job. 

 

I'm sure there are others as well.

 

 

Thanks Nigel for the detailed answer.

I hope you don't mind if I respond to your points.

Option (a) is not available. All my locomotives have keep-alives fitted, and these would, I'm pretty sure, defeat the dead sections.

On option (b) all locos will have TCS WOW decoders. I don't know if these support the Asymmetric Braking mechanism. Are they on the list?

Does option (c) require each section to have its own booster? 

Option (d) and (e) both look like they will demand more investment in time (and expertise) than I think I want to commit.

On reflection automating this problem looks to involve too much time and effort*. I think the best way for me to go is to eschew an automatic solution and instead rely on an operator who will be able to identify loco addresses, measure the length of the gap in front of stored trains and control the movements with accurate stopping.

A human operator can do all this but a rota that changes their role before boredom sets in will be vital.

*If I am wrong about this and a simple method is possible please tell me!

Chaz

Hello,

This is a question relating to a possible future project. This may be a double track oval with only the front section visible. The two semi circular curves and the back connecting straight will be used for storing trains. 

Imagine the front train on one of the tracks is to run. As it comes on to the scenic section it leaves a space on the storage track at the front. The other trains (maybe two or three) will need to move up so that the empty section is at the back of the stack ready for the train that is running to run into.

I had this arrangement on a DC powered layout sometime ago, with relays and a BBC Master computer (remember those?) doing the work, moving one train at a time into the vacant space ahead of it so that the empty space on the loop was at the back, ready.

Is this possible with DCC? I know about detecting locos in sections (I have a number of MERG detector PCBs which will detect the current drawn by a decoder, even if the loco is stationary). Of course it will be easy enough for an operator to move the trains up but I am wondering if it can be done automatically.

Chaz

On 05/04/2019 at 16:51, railwayrod said:

Hi Chaz.

 

Your layout has given me much pleasure as I followed its progress etc. I will be sad to see it go but when its time for a change it is time for a change.

 

What I would like to know is what will follow - a new layout?, a new scale? or are you going to give up modelling altogether? I await with bated breath to hear what's next!

 

Rod

I have a new project in mind Rod, but at present I am keeping quiet about it. I certainly can't start the new project until DG has been disposed of as I need the space it takes up in storage, although I will be doing some planning, design sketches etc.

Chaz

3 minutes ago, sb67 said:

I'm with Perthshireman, I'd love this layout but, space, finances, transport and the lack of any O gauge stock are all against me!  It does seem a shame to bin it but life moves on and I'm sure it's served it's purpose many time over. Just a thought Chaz but is there a local club/society you could donate it to if it doesn't get sold? 

Steve.

A sale is possible, with the price to be agreed between myself and the buyer. I am not a club member but I have put a note on the Gauge O Guild's for-sale lists. I will not give it away - there is some value to me if I strip it of those parts (DCC, tortoises etc) that will serve a future project. There are also some scenic features that might sell. 

Chaz

23 hours ago, Perthshireman said:

I would love to buy this layout, but sadly finances wouldn't allow it as things stand just now. Surely you aren't serious about such a work of art ending up in a skip? If you really are thinking of doing so, just let me know when, and where, the skip is, and I'll make the journey down from Scotland! Mind you, if you post the details on RM Web, I suspect that there would be the most almighty rush to the skip site. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts  over the past few months, and look forward to whatever you plan for the future.

Your concern is understandable (and flattering) and of course I would much prefer to sell the layout, rather than destroy it. I have had a couple of possible buyers show some interest.

I will not give the layout away (that just doesn't feel right), so if a buyer is not ultimately forthcoming I will salvage what I can for future use (items such as the DCC system and the Tortoise point motors for example) and the rest will be broken up. Once the baseboards are stripped they might be usable. Even things such as the Peco points might have some value.

The locos and rolling stock should be easier to sell, singly or in batches, and they have a potential value much higher than the layout. 

Chaz

9 hours ago, GW Jim said:

Chaz.

 

I have dipped in and out of this topic and have found it so helpful, it's making a start on weathering that I find the key to weathering.

 

Many thanks for all the time and effort you have put in, in showing us your 'system' I know it's very time consuming, so thanks again. Keep it up please, looking forward to more.

 

Regards, James. 

I know what you mean James. I was once asked to put some light weathering on a 7mm model of an LMS "Crab". This was an immaculate model that had been professionally painted. I put it on my bench and then had to pause. However it had to be done - a totally spotless model is just not convincing. 

I'm not sure how much more I will be posting on RMweb. My 7mm layout, Dock Green, is to be sold (or broken up if I can't find a buyer) in the autumn so my future modelling will concentrate on my On30 American narrow gauge stuff. I have found that there is more of a following for this on Narrow Gauge Modelling Online. This is understandable but I don't think I want to keep topics on two forums going. 

Chaz

On 17/03/2019 at 11:31, The Bigbee Line said:

Things move on.  I have had the good fortune not only to see the layout, but also to operate it.  It was a good experience and picked up quite a few tips.

 

I notice Chaz, that you mention disposal of the rolling stock...  I know I may be adding 2 + 2 and making 5, but assume this means a change of scale/gauge...  It could just be a change of period...

 

I wish you all the best with the next adventure,

 

Many thanks

 

Ernie

Thanks Ernie. Yes, I will try to sell all the rolling stock and if the layout doesn't sell it will have to be a skip I am afraid.

Chaz

12 hours ago, sb67 said:

Chaz I got to agree with everyone's posts. I've thoroughly enjoyed seeing Dock Green and it is definitely one of my favourite layouts and it, along with this thread, have provided me with a lot of inspiration.  I'm sure it will get a good home and it would be good to see it at a show again. Thank you for sharing it with us and I'll look forward to your next project.

Steve.

Thanks for that Steve. I think Dock Green is a layout that appeals best to the enthusiast who knows what he is looking at. I have had numerous conversations with show visitors and often the most interested have been those who appreciate the nature of the time and place depicted.

Chaz

57 minutes ago, AJon30 said:

Hello Chaz. I have enjoyed seeing Dock Green in operation, and the thread running with it has been a "must read"

 

I hope that it does not disappear completely as it has been an inspirational layout.

 

Best for the future

 

Rgds Andrew

Thanks for those very positive comments Andrew. Much appreciated. It was a hard decision to make but a necessary one that will allow my next project space to develop.

Chaz

10 hours ago, Simond said:

Chaz,

 

that would be a momentous, but entirely understandable, step to take.  I, and I’m sure many others, have thoroughly enjoyed your thread, and I have certainly learned from the discussions over the last few years.  

 

So thank you for that!

 

if you do decide to move it on, I do hope it finds a good home, and that it will go out on the road from time to time.

 

And yes, I’d, still very much like to see it in the flesh!

 

Best

Simon

9 hours ago, N15class said:

I was fortunate enough to of seen this lovely layout. It is better in the flesh than it is on here. Good luck with the new venture.

9 hours ago, Warspite said:

Chaz

 

Have to agree with everything Simon has said. I picked up this thread mid way through 2012 and really enjoyed seeing the layout develop over the years. I've been fortunate to see Dock Green a couple of times and it is a superb layout that positively exudes atmosphere and captures the time and place. I'll be sad to see it go.

 

Stephen

Thanks lads! I have been much encouraged by the support expressed on this forum, the many positive comments have been very welcome. I have also enjoyed the reception the layout has received at the many shows we have taken it to. It has not been to everyone's taste of course, what layout is?

I had a number of aims for the layout when I first started sketching out ideas and I have been lucky enough to achieve most of them. Dock Green is the only layout I have exhibited but as it has been such a success I do intend my next project to "go on the road" as well.

I do feel that it's now time for me to move on. I have some ideas which I will be developing over the next year or two, for a very different project but I don't intend to say anything more about that yet.

I don't know what will happen to Dock Green - I would prefer to sell the layout to someone who will keep its essential form intact - it needs a good home. It may well be that the stock will have to be sold separately, as it's value is inevitably many times the value of the the layout. 

We have two exhibitions to attend this year - we will be at Abingdon this coming Saturday (16th) and at the show in Worthing in September (26/27th). My present intention is that the Worthing show will be the last. Of course what a new owner (should there be one) will do will be out of my hands.

Chaz

I am seriously considering disposing of Dock Green at the end of the year. It has appeared at most of the shows in Southern England and a few further afield. I will be sad to see it go but I do need the space it takes up when stored for a new project and taking it to a lot more shows is no longer that attractive.

Chaz

#29 joins #27 on the FVRR roster ( #28 awaits some parts missing from the pilot beam).

2 coats of Vallejo matte varnish (magic stuff) airbrushed on to provide a key for the weathering powders.

As so often seems to happen the camera has reduced the effect of the weathering - still I think the model looks good, certainly better than it did straight out of the box....

All that white paint just had to go!

Chaz

My latest work has been on a Bachmann 2-8-0 - A Consolidation (or Conny).

Same techniques that I used on the Mogul

1. gloss varnish on the panels where decals are to go (2 coats of Vallejo thinned 50/50 applied with a brush)
2. transfers added and allowed time to dry
3. matte varnish (Vallejo again) airbrushed onto the whole loco except the wheels and rods and allowed time to dry
4. weathering powders brushed on - colours - black, smoke, dark earth, rust, greys and white.

From some angles the camera is very unkind in spotting the edge of the decals. Watching the loco run from a reasonable viewing distance the effect is negligible.

The running and sound from a TCS WOW chip is excellent and the bundled keep-alive makes stalls from dusty track a thing of the past.

Chaz

15 hours ago, James Harrison said:

What is that barrel for on top of the boiler?  Backwoods feedwater heater?   Either way, a very interesting little loco and brilliant work. 

It's an air tank for the air brakes. I am told it's a very unusual position for it - it was more usual for it to be under the running boards or on the tender. In fact I was told that there was only one railroad and possibly only one loco that used this arrangement. But as I pointed out to my informant he was wrong, the Furness Valley definitely had a couple of moguls with tanks on the boiler top - and I am modelling them! Rule One always applies.

Chaz

Come and say hello, Deano. if I'm not too busy we can chat.

Chaz

Earlier in this topic I was brush painting shiny plastic trucks (bogies) with Tamiya matte black. I have now discovered, and switched to,  Vallejo Surface Primer for this job. It will flow better on the surface without any tendency to creep away from areas through surface tension and gives the same good matte finish.

Chaz

59 minutes ago, Simond said:

 

Chaz

 

Thank you for pointing out the “bl**din’ obvious”, I just weighted my two “Felix Pole” wagons by adding some lead sheet inside - I have dummy coal loads made from foam rubber at the moment - and it does seem to have improved their roadholding.  Given that the point motors are not connected up on PD at the moment, the testing was somewhat cursory!

 

I fear that Abingdon is not going to be possible for me. One day, I will get to see Dock Green in the flesh, I will...

 

atb

Simon

 “bl**din’ obvious”? Well Simon, the wagon already had lead under the floor that had proved to be enough on my "old" home layout. However on Dock Green it derailed consistently on a couple of points. By doubling the amount of weight I seemed to have solved the problem. I didn't put my lead inside as the wagon runs empty out of the yard (and full in).

Chaz

Dock Green will be at the one day show in Abingdon on Saturday March 16th. If you are anywhere near on the day why not pop along for a look? Follow the link for venue details, a layout list etc

http://admrc.org.uk/exhibitions/abingdon-exhibition-2019

Chaz

In fact progress on the layout has stalled in favour of getting some of the locos into service. Following on from #7 I next worked on #10.

Headlamp bracket removed and lamp re-positioned

pilot with non-working coupling replaced with the Bachmann upgrade

cab side windows plated

TCS WOW decoder in cab roof with keep alive behind side sheet and sugar cube speaker in smokebox - sounds excellent!

weathering done with powders

coal plate added across tender top

Woodland Scenics coal lumps to improve plastic "coal" effect

Bit of a sweety? Wheels and rods still to be weathered.

Chaz

On 27/12/2018 at 17:11, chaz said:

This wagon has never run on Dock Green as it had broken tie-bars between the axle guards. 

 

 

I am intending that it should run in the coal train at the next show.

 

Follow the 3rd link below to "Some weathering projects" to learn more.

 

Chaz

The 21 tonner did go to Romsey. On Saturday it kept derailing and had to subbed in disgrace. On Saturday evening I glued some lead sheet under the floor and tried it again on Sunday when it behaved itself. it's now a permanent feature in the coal train.

Chaz

On 02/03/2019 at 16:24, martin.a.ball said:

Chaz and his team are at Romsey Model Rail Show today and tomorrow (March 3rd). Well worth a visit if you are in the area.

 

This is my 2nd chance to see Dock Green and I've just spent a couple of hours watching the arrival and departures. Very entertaining chaps, great job by Roy to cheap things moving as Chaz is extremely popular and spends most of his time chatting with the crowd.

Not sure I would agree with that "most of his time" or indeed with the "extremely popular" but thanks for the positive comments, most encouraging. We (the team) enjoyed the show which had a very pleasant atmosphere, was well attended with some very knowledgable visitors and lots of youngsters (always good to see).

Chaz