jointline

2 hours ago, chrisf said:

It would depend where they lived.  North Acton and Acton Main Line were both on the 660 and 666 trolleybus routes, which passed very near to Old Oak Common depot, also served Willesden Junction and passed close to Noel Road where there was another big railway estate very handy for Acton Yard.

 

Chris, born and bred in Acton!

Thanks for this Chris.  I lived down the line in Hayes,  and some of my neighbours and friends were either drivers or guards on the WR.   Of course Southall shed was nearer, and within easy distance,  so if they were not top link they would have preferred  working from there.

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Also, people would be used to walking or cycling what we would consider long distances. One of the porters at our local station lived near us, so had a two mile walk at the beginning and end of his shift. 

Agreed!  I think we easily forget how far people walked to work.   I used to cycle about 10 miles each way at one time, and didn't think anything of it....fortunately not in winter though!

2 hours ago, chrisf said:

It would depend where they lived.  North Acton and Acton Main Line were both on the 660 and 666 trolleybus routes, which passed very near to Old Oak Common depot, also served Willesden Junction and passed close to Noel Road where there was another big railway estate very handy for Acton Yard.

 

Chris, born and bred in Acton!

Thanks for this Chris.  I lived down the line in Hayes,  and some of my neighbours and friends were either drivers or guards on the WR.   Of course Southall shed was nearer, and within easy distance,  so if they were not top link they would have preferred  working from there.

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but here goes!  How did drivers/firemen get to Old Oak Common to clock on?  There are no stations near, apart from Old Oak Lane,  and later on, North Acton. 

 I assume a lot of them lived locally, but there were big railway estates at places like Hayes,  and some of the engine staff would presumably have lived there.

Old Oak Lane Halt was near the depot,  but the service there was not that good, and anyway was on the Birmingham line, not the GW main line. 

Could they go into Paddington, and then get a lift back on any engine to the depot returning there?  

I know getting to work was often a problem for many railwaymen on early shifts  (a friend of mine used to have to drive to Ealing Broadway from Hayes to open the booking office, because he had to be there for the first train)  but Old Oak is not an easy place to get to at any time of day if you were travelling by train.   

None of the contemporary references are much help. 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

This sounds a bit odd in terms of what was or wasn't done at particular dates.  The 1960 WR Sectional Appendix authorises the propelling of empty coaching stock from the Down Main to the Up Platform between Princes Risborough North and South 'boxes, which was probably the simplest way of doing the job.  The engine then would run round via the Up Main and back onto its stock at the South 'box - all in all a very simple set of moves.

 

To be honest I don't really understand the other form of working you described.  It sounds as if what happened was that the engine ran round and then propelled the stock onto the Down Main clear of the trailing crossover where it crossed over to the Up side and thence into the platform.  I don't have any pre-1960 information for Risborough but it might well have been the case that the authority to propel into the block section on the Up Platform Line didn't exist prior to 1960 (or 1958?) for some reason.

 

Incidentally the amendment details for 'Risborough North show the Down Main Home Signal as being renewed on 28.11.61.

Thanks for this!  Didn't explain it very well!

In simple terms it's whether or not:

1. The engine ran round the stock on the down side, and then by propelling the train crossed to the up side/line, and then drew into the  up platform;

or

2. Continued with  the train across to the up side,  propelled into the up platform, and then ran round from the south to the north.

Having nothing else to do (!) I went back and checked the original sources.

"To be honest I don't really understand the other form of working you described.  It sounds as if what happened was that the engine ran round and then propelled the stock onto the Down Main clear of the trailing crossover where it crossed over to the Up side and thence into the platform."

This does actually seem to be the way it usually happened

In volume 2 of "The Country Railway" there is half a page devoted to this, including photographs of it happening.  When under ER management, the down train would draw forward from the down platform, and park its coaches by the North Signal Box, then run round and propel them onto the up main,  then draw forward into the up platform. 

However the author draws on recollections of staff saying that they would on occasion use any method possible, including drawing forward onto the down main,  propelling the stock to the up platform and then running round via the up main. 

There's also a very good picture of the first of these happening, with the stock parked in front of the north box, in the book "Paddington to the Mersey" by Hendry and Hendry. 

I have some pictures from the Transport Treasury post 1958,  but they always seem to show the engine (LMR) running round as per No.2. above.

I'll keep digging, but thank you for your help!

1 hour ago, 4069 said:

By remarkable good fortune, I can narrow down that time window even further. This is a detail from a PJ Garland/Roger Carpenter print dated 23 April 1962 (Easter Monday), in which the down main junction signal is clearly in undercoat, with a light coloured patch of recently disturbed ballast around its base. So it has been renewed since you were there on Saturday 7 April, just over two weeks before!

 

On your point about a possible change in working arrangements in 1958, when the frame in North box was replaced in July 1958,  the changes to the outdoor signals were small, but did include adding calling-on arms below the up starting signals reading onto the platform line. This may have been accompanied by a change in the signal box instructions/practice relating to running round trains, but I don't know for sure.

 

Stuart J

Thank you. That's a great picture, and captures exactly the thing I wanted to capture in a model! And thank you for the other corrections. 

To take your points in order:  thanks for the correction about the RA Cooke diagram.  And yes, down platform line, not "relief".  I've got the first editions of  many of Cooke's books, and have never updated! I used the actual signal box diagram for planning my model.

Yes, I meant the bay splitting starter!   A very distinctive signal for somebody brought up on WR practice.

The picture I took on 7th April 62 was a day out which included Maidenhead-Wycombe, Risborough to Oxford, Oxford to Witney, and Radley to Abingdon.  Returning on a train to West Ruislip that didn't have any steam heating on,  (and it was a cold night!)  

Thanks for the info about running round. The appendix to the working timetable makes no reference to it, so it was probably under local arrangements,  being deemed within "station limits". 

Would be interested to hear if anything else on this turns up. 

Just another quick note about Risborough;  the track diagram in R A Cooke's  Section 26  (page 26/4) omits the line between the down bay and the down relief,  which is  a strange omission.  

On 27/03/2020 at 17:46, 4069 said:

Nice pictures. The North box up starters went from UQ to LQ soon after the connection from up platform to up main was taken out of use around July 1957, so their LQ replacements were a bracket and a single post. I think it's likely that it was at the same time as the splitting down homes at North box were renewed as LQs, in mid-58 as far as I can judge coinciding with the new frame in North box.

 

I'm not sure whether there was a complete clearout of UQs before the 1968 remodelling, In the second edition of  Jenkins' book, page 190, there is a picture of a 9F passing North box, dated 26 September 64, in which it's possible to see that the bay starting signal is still UQ. However, the accuracy of Jenkins' captions can be very poor. There's no doubt that after the 1968 resignalling all the signals were WR. 

 

Stuart J

Yes, I find it a bit confusing.  I took the first picture attached on 7th April 1962 showing the up starter/junction signal. However the Middleton Press book has a picture taken on 20th May 1962, showing a lower quadrant replacement  (copyright etc with Middleton Press, and acknowledged).  Perhaps this was the actual window  of time in which it was replaced? This picture shows the home for the down bay still as upper quadrant, so that may have been the last one  at Risborough.

On a slightly different note, I seem to think that the working arrangements at Risborough for running round suburban trains changed in 1958.  (Gleaned from looking at a lot of photographs). Before that it appears that the engine ran round in the down platform and propelled the train onto the up relief, then went ahead to the up platform.   Under the LMR arrangements , the engine stayed on, the train continued from the down platform, crossed the main lines to the up relief, propelled into the up platform and ran round the train there.  Would be really pleased to have confirmation or otherwise.  Could this have been to do with any resignalling at that time?

Just for info I attach the plan of Risborough I did for use with Fleischmann Profi-track.  It was achievable, but as I said in my initial post,  it was just too big in 4mm for the space I had available.  Still have all the track etc, and would like to resurrect it one day!

On 25/03/2020 at 10:19, 4069 said:

Are you sure? The LMR had control of the Joint Line from 1975 until about 1990, and didn't replace a single signal until the total route modernisation started.

 

What makes it difficult to mix periods if you are modelling the northern half of the line (West Wycombe to Ashendon Jn) is that the GCR/LNER were responsible for maintenance from opening, so many of the original GWR-pattern signals were replaced with upper quadrants over the years. On nationalisation, the WR gained control and lower quadrants came back steadily, so that by the time of the transfer to the LMR in 1975 there were no upper quadrants left. No such problem for the Northolt Jn - High Wycombe section, which was under GWR/WR maintenance throughout.

You're spot on of course!  I was confusing "ownership" with actual signals.  I loved the upper quadrants at Princes Risborough,  especially the up starter, which was a double junction signal, and it was the combination of these with the lower quadrants that made the whole place so interesting to model.  Much as I love lower quadrants the upper ones had a certain style! These all seem to have been replaced between 1962 and 1964,  but perhaps somebody has the correct date for the signal replacements. But I think there were no upper quadrants left at Risborough post 1964.

On 20/03/2020 at 20:34, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi there,

The aspect of the Joint line that I am interested in is the trains that ran from Aylesbury/Princes Risborough/High Wycombe to Maidenhead/Taplow/Slough and Paddington because I am modelling based on the Relief Lines and High Wycombe Branch junction at Maidenhead in 1960/2, which I am calling Lower Thames Junction.

I have WTTs and Carriage Working Books that give me a lot of detail but I am missing key details on some of the trains, particularly the locos used.

 

Three particular questions:-

 

A key train is the 0540 Parcels from Reading via Maidenhead to Princes Risborough, whose loco returned around 0900 LE to Slough. I have the times and the formation, but what was the usual loco?

As many of the Branch trains were hauled by 61xxs or Panniers, I plan to use a 56xx 0-6-2 for this train but is that right?

 

There was a through evening Freight from Slough to the Birmingham area, but what hauled that?

 

In one of the many books covering the Branch it is suggested that coal to the stations on the branch was dropped off by an evening train. Was this the train from Oxford to Slough or dropped at High Wycombe off a freight from Banbury and taken down the branch by the returning Taplow to High Wycombe freight?

 

Any thoughts or facts would be welcome!

 

Many thanks

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Paul

I can't really answer any of those questions.  But 56xx class 0-6-2s were not that common in the London/Thames Valley area in my recollection, until quite late in the steam period.  There was one 66xx class at Southall I remember, but photographic evidence is slim.  There is also a picture of a 45xx on the Uxbridge High Street branch coal train just before closure, but I've no idea where that was shedded.   Branch services along Maidenhead to High Wycombe  passenger were in the hands of 61xx class, and also the 14xx used on the Marlow auto trains.   After the Watlington shed closed the branch engine was shedded at Slough I seem to remember,  and worked up every day.  This was invariably a 57xx series pannier tank.  Later on 84xxx class were used on the Chinnor  coal traffic, and also 16xx class. 

My memories are mainly post 1960, as that is when I started going on these lines, and they were then in the early stages of dieselisation. 

I have an appendix to the working timetable somewhere, so I'll see if that has any more info.

2 hours ago, Clearwater said:

Thanks.  I'm very much at the planning / future dream stage but my thought is firmly 30s with 50s as an alternative.  I'd prefer to run the LNER/ex-GCR locos rather than LMR.  I'd also like to have something further north on the GWR line which therefore allows my through trains to Wolverhampton to pass through this stretch earlier.  Saunderton looks a fairly simple station without too many complexities.

 

I think I'm right in understanding some A3s were displaced to the GCR route in the 50s but prior to WW2, most of the services were in the hands of ex-GCR Atlantics?

 

I'll look out for the Wild Swan book.  

 

David

There were certainly plenty of A3's later on, as well as V2s, B1s and K3s. Suburban were often in the hands of A5s as well as L1s.  Freight was of equal importance of course. Haven't researched a great deal on pre-WW2,  but you will need to consult books about GCR and LNER, as most pictures are, like it or not, are GW or WR!

The Watlington branch book is called "Country Branch Line" and you need volume 2. It's a bit pricey, so you might want just to borrow it from the library! 

On 18/03/2020 at 20:51, Clearwater said:

Thanks @jointline.  What time period were you considering?  I’ve been more drawn towards Saunderton as a location.

 

David

Well, that's one of the difficulties I had, as I wanted to model it as I remembered it in the 1960's. But there was so much interest in the period before that, especially as Hornby brought out an L1, which was common on the suburban services before LMR took over!  

You couldn't run different periods at different running sessions, as the LMR did a lot of resignalling. Also the passenger service on the Watlington line ceased in 1956, and I wanted to include that!

I realised from the start that I could only do the north part of the station in 4mm, but even that proved impossible, as the signal blocks were unachievable. 

Still think it would be a fantastic project given the space. Saunderton would be a good choice in 00 I reckon, as it stayed pretty much the same all it's existence.

For reference, as has been suggested, the Middleton Press books are excellent, Transport Treasury have a wide selection of photos, and there is also very good reading in the Wild Swan history of the Watlington branch, which covers Princes Risborough in detail.

Let me know if you want to know anything else.  I spent quite  some time researching the line for a model of Princes Risborough, so may be able to give more details of some things.

Not clear what period you are interested in?

The Oakwood Press book is a good start,  but make sure it is the later edition.  The earlier was good, but the revised new edition is much better.

The early years, 1906 - 1923 are not that well represented  in railway books.  The use of ex-GCR stock was very limited after 1923, mainly A5's (Robinson 9N's) and the occasional freight loco, such as the Robinson 2-8-0's.  9K's and 9L's were also used in the earlier periods on suburban services. 

The LNER period is well covered in the literature, and also worth bearing in mind that from 1958 LMR took over the running on ER services, so you need to choose your modelling date carefully!

Also worth looking at Dow's volume in "The Great Central Railway" about the London extension (volume 3 of the set).

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The Stationmaster is spot on. Only coal, and that ceased with the closure of Southall and Kensal Green gas works,  and the phasing out of domestic coal. Crow Catchpole at Hayes  got a few wagons, but can't recall block workings. This was for road surfacing rather than construction work, but open to correction on this. I think they had a rotary tippler, but this was later in the sixties. 

All aggregates went by road from local pits, and the rates were fiercely competitive, and were very time and distance sensitive. (I used to work in the pricing office of a gravel firm so am talking from first hand experience.) The short distances would have made rail uncompetitive for a lot of it, until the vast quantities required in modern London became a reality, and green belt land became more expensive. 

This is one of the most elusive stations/lines to find anything about.   

There is one photo of the line, probably at Royal Mint Street,  in the Middleton Press book about the Fenchurch Street line, and that is about all. 

Despite searching, I have never seen a picture with railway wagons in or beside the wool warehouse.   All wagons crossed East Smithfield using capstans, so no locomotives could ever used in the docks .

The only rails I have seen on OS maps show one line running alongside the wool warehouse, but not right to the side of the dock.

I do have one Victorian street atlas of the area which shows other lines continuing around the dockside, but have never found anything to corroborate this.

As has already been mentioned, St Katherine's Dock was never rail connected. 

The whole stretch of line from Fenchurch Street to Blackwall had numerous goods sheds belonging to different companies, and has been well documented (except for East Smithfield!)

Wagon hoists were pretty common in London, because, of course, like many cities, the railways were built on "arches."  

There was an auto-coach, used as an office, or something similar I would think,  in Paddington Goods shed, which must have retained this livery until much later, as I remember seeing it sometime in the late 50's or even early 60's.   I remember it as pretty matt brown, but I guess it had never been repainted, and was very worn.  From memory it was about the same as the brown used on buildings. 

Can't ever remember seeing any  on any service on the WR mainline out of Paddington in this livery, even in the early fifties though.

Small country stations such as Colnbrook had board crossings. Services were only hourly, and "Beware  of the Trains" notices were put up. Where there were level crossings they usually had a side walk for foot passengers.

The main thing about board crossings is that they were usually at stations which had all stopping services,  and had very few "through" services.  

From memory, fifty or sixty years ago, there was far less fuss about people wandering about at minor stations, even on running lines, if you were daft enough to do it. 

We regularly walked along lines when taking photographs without anybody getting excited. We were really aware of the potential danger of course, and you could (generally) hear a steam engine from a distance (although not always of course).   On the main lines of course we were chased away, quite rightly.  Getting too close to an express is not recommended.

Photos show two typical GWR/WR barrow crossings.  The one with the DMU parcels is at Colnbrook, and was intended for passengers.  The other at Hayes and Harlington was not intended for passengers.  In the latter case there was a notice "Passengers are advised to use the footbridge when crossing the line".

5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

If you are thinking of something like this, that is not a porthole in the sense being discussed by this thread.

 

I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet, and are distinguishing between portholes and front windows.  I've tagged a pic of a 56xx with one apparently open,  I'll see if I can dig it out if I have time. 

I'd always assumed they were there for a through draught  rather than to see out of, as some pictures seem to show them slanting open.  

They were the only time that we normally saw Dukedogs on the main line out of Paddington.  Remember one double headed in the late fifties. 

Thanks for all the replies:  really helps a failing memory!

The only other scheduled  service shown with identical formation (less van) is the 10.18 to Oxford.   Mostly 3-car or 2x 3 car sets.    

I wonder how they worked out three car sets were optimal,  as they were intended to replace the five coach Q sets (which carried on for another few months).  Perhaps they compiled actual usage statistics (or perhaps not!)

In the 1960 version I have  the 6.38, train number 2A52  as all stations to West Drayton & Yiewsley,  connects to Uxbridge and Staines West:

Single power car   ))

Drive end trailer    ))   West Drayton

3 car set                  ))

K Van  (Mails)          )     Uxbridge

K - attached at Paddington from Stop blocks.

Would look very good in model form,  but somebody would say it didn't happen!

Thank you very much for this. 

 I couldn't understand why I had the date of 1958 in my head for Greenford,  when I knew that the Class 121's weren't about until 1961.  I hadn't realised that the 122's were used on that route, and can't remember seeing any either,  although I may not have realised the difference at the age I then was.

I can well remember travelling in the GWR railcars to Staines, but didn't take any pictures until the 121's arrived. The auto trains all disappeared in one go at Southall (they had their own servicing line the other side of the Brentford branch) except for the spare car for the Marlow branch,  which was often just left in one of the goods sidings.  (although why not at Slough, which was a lot nearer)  I've no idea.

The 117's worked to Uxbridge as well, although never, I think, to Staines. Picture below is from 1962, just before closure. 

I've mislaid some notes I made some time ago about the actual, precise, dates when auto-trains last ran on the Greenford-Ealing service, and also for the Uxbridge and Staines Branches.  Can anybody help me on this, or point me to reference sources? 

So far as I remember the Greenford line went straight from auto-trains to Class 121 units.    

Both Staines and Uxbridge were operated by a combination of GWR railcars and auto-trains.  Towards the end of the 1950's the GWR railcars would operate mainly during the day,  until about tea-time,  when they then worked to Uxbridge  (which didn't have an afternoon service.)  Auto-trains then  took over on the Staines line.  They were all replaced so far as I remember by Class 121 units at the same time, and Southall presumably lost all it's auto-cars and GWR railcars at the same date.