DavidLong

Pete,

I'd agree that the Don Rowland volume 'British Railway Wagons' is probably the best overview. It covers the introduction of all the 'traditional' types up to the mid-1960s and he finishes off with one chapter covering the introduction of the British Rail designed and owned air braked stock such as VAAs, SPAs, BAAs, HAAs etc.

It's a shame that the OPC 'Illustrated History of BR Wagons' only ran to Volume 1 as with a Volume 2 it would have been the real bible. Still worth buying for the photos, drawings and build details covering open merchandise wagons, steel carriers and steel minerals (coal/iron ore). Volume 2 would, I assume, have covered things like vans and hopper wagons but, as I say, sadly never appeared.

If you really get into it then any of the Larkin softbacks, now under Kevin Robertson's wing, are valuable and don't ignore the Cheona series that was begun by the late Geoff Gamble.

Mickey's point is good too about the two Hendry volumes as they are the only ones with colour pics.

David

No, but watched Chelsea take a hammering in the whats its name cup. LOL ( bet i'm gonna get stick back LOL )

Far be it from me to be an apologist for the uber-rich of SW6 but they were in the 'whats its name cup' because they had previously won the European Cup. I wish that the Arsenal could appear in the 'whats its name cup' because it would mean that we had won a significant European trophy of either first or second class. I suspect that this goes for several thousand other football clubs around Europe from the various equivalents of 1 Zingari League upwards who can only dream of being hammered in the 'whats its name cup'.

David

Just out of interest, how much could DIY track and points be built for with the same approach?

 

Ed

With PCB sleepers and bullhead rail probably pretty cheaply but with a big trade off in terms of time spent.

David

Chesterfield dumped their manager then sold Bowery to Aston Villa for an undisclosed sum, a coincidence I wonder?

Seen him decribed as the best thing to come out of Chesterfield AFC since (Super) Kevin Davies!

Big Sam will be tracking Bowery's career with interest . . .

 

 

As a Chelsea fan glad to see Benayoun out (why did we buy him in the first place?) and whilst I understand the need for it, sad to see big Michael Essien leaving - a great servant to CFC.

 

Heres hoping that lightweight Michael Owen gets the club he deserves - a 9 iron cos he should have plenty of saturdays to play golf.

 

Colin,

I was actually quite sad that the Arsenal didn't hang on to Benayoun. He's one of those players who may not be first choice but he's rarely injured (a rare advantage at AFC) and when he does play he doesn't let you down. When he first came to England Big Sam was on the point of signing him for Bolton Wanderers but he was snatched away by West Ham at the last minute. Looks like Big Sam has finally got his man.

Having seen the price that Clint Dempsey went to the Totts for, I'm sure that Arsene Wenger and Ivan Gazidis could have rummaged around down the back of the sofa and found a few more quid to top the offer. Distinctly underwhelmed by AFC's forward players so far, just hope when Poldi and Giroud have aclimatised they'll 'do a job' as we footballing people say. Gervinho hasn't so far after a year so I'm not getting my hopes up.

Shame about Michael Owen, sad waste of talent. Perhaps it would be better if he just did a Mick Channon and gave up on football to spend more time with his horses.

Still worried about Bolton Wanderers chances of getting out of the Championship. They are suffering the same problem that got them relegated in that they can't defend. This is one of those cases where I fear it is not a case of blaming the players but the person who is supposed to organise them.

Although anyone who signs Tyrone Mears deserves everything they get. Did I really see him playing for Marseille in the Champions League in 2009 - must have been a mirage. . .

By the way, Colin, it was an inability to get the team to defend that got di Matteo the sack at WBA. Worrying signs of the same traits yesterday evening.

Great to have the old soap opera back though, isn't it?

David

The BBC has a report of the Football Supporters Federation's survey of the opinions of 4000 fans. Amongst the data was the statistic that 91% of those surveyed would like the choice between sitting and standing. With the usual PR inability to answer the point raised, a spokesman for the Premier League said "Recent research looking at crowd diversity shows that more women, families and fans from different ethnic backgrounds are attending than ever before, and that reflects the welcoming nature of our grounds". Now nobody was suggesting that grounds should become all standing but the spokesman fails to address the point that there is a considerable body of opinion that would like some standing areas to return to grounds. The usual example that it is introduced is that of the German Budesliga which does have standing areas and has been noticeable for its lack of stadium disasters in recent years despite the large crowds which that league attracts.

I would be absoutely in favour of away fans having both a standing area and a seated area available to them then maybe I could begin to attend some away games again. I don't these days as, despite paying good money for a seat, I am forced to stand by the eejits around me who, despite ground regulations and no action from stewards, insist on standing from first to last. Anyone who is brave enough to object to the practice would, of course, be subjected to a volley of abuse and possible threat of violence. Quite honestly it is better to stay at home.

Despite the above purely selfish reasons for a standing/sitting choice I do think that a sensible case could be made for areas behind the goals to have standing provision return for those who wish to continue with this archaic habit.

David (who will enjoy sitting in the upper tier at the Emirates on Saturday and the lower tier at the Reebok on Tuesday!)

In case anyone is interested, there is an article by Peter Winding in the December 1966 Model Railway News which is entitled 'Nogent Engine Shed'. This was the shed that provided the locos for services out of Paris-Bastille. However, the article covers the services from Bastille with track plans of the terminus and also of the semi-roundhouse at Nogent as well as a map showing the location of the Bastille to Boissy line inrelation to others in the area. No photos of the terminus I'm afraid but there are five photographs taken in and around Nogent shed earlier in 1966. Mr.Winding does comment that it would be worth a visit as he comments that with the coming of RATP East-West line that the Vincennes to Bastille section would be abandoned. I kept a note of this article as I saw similarities with Minories and that it may be a useful prototype on which to base a layout at some point.

Could I also give a mention in the small urban terminus stakes to Cowes on the Isle of Wight. This is very much a 'modellers' terminus with three platform roads, a coal siding, a couple of other spare sidings, all converging into a single line and only using seven plain turnouts in the process. Oh and it has an overbridge just past the last turnout! Aside from all the other published works the Railway Modeller did a two page article with track plan and photographs in October 1960 and the Model Railway Constructor published a signalling plan in October 1977.

David

Edit: Apologies, the plan showed the last turnout before the bridge but photos show it as just after the bridge. For your model, move the bridge!

Sanity returning! Pleased with my early season schedule:

Saturday 11th August Southport v Grimsby Town

Saturday 18th August Arsenal v Sunderland

Tuesday 21st August Bolton Wanderers v Derby County

Shame I can't fit in a visit to Waterford United (on a run of 8 wins/1 draw in last 9 games) or I would have had the full set

David

The Farish pannier is untouched, and I leave it to others to say how to scale it is for N or 2mm. Camera was on its 28mm equivalent setting

Tim,

Just done a quick measurement of a Farish Pannier body. At 1:148 it seems to be pretty accurate. 0.5mm over-length over buffer planks, exactly correct from bottom of footplate to top of cab and also across the width of the pannier tanks. Poole got something right! Agreed that it is unusual for the difference between 1:148 and 1:152 to be quite so obvious. Is the other 57xx one of John Greenwood's?

David

Edit: Should have added that I measured one with the later style of cab.

It's all there in Govt docs over the years. The Cost Benefit Analysis for Midland ML electrification came ahead of any other scheme on the railway (despite which GW, Manchester and Transpennine got put in front).

Absolutely correct, Joseph. This has been commented on in the pages of Modern Railways and Rail for some time now and it may be the case that 'politics' has pushed other projects ahead of it. Isn't it also true that an electrfied railway gets you benefits more than pure speed but enhances capacity through improved acceleration?

I'm not in the least bit cynical about these announcements. At a time such as we are experiencing now we need infrastructure projects to be initiated. We are talking here about projects to take place before the end of the decade which should have effects on employment levels and, one hopes, tax take and benefit reduction while improving the nation's ability to better function as an economy. I'm far more enthusiastic about these sort of proposals which are of far more benefit to more people than any number of high speed lines.

Oh and did anyone else notice that the £9bn quoted cost of these improvements matches the swollen budget for the Olympic Games. Now I know which I consider better value for my beloved country . . .

David

I think that last comment was meant to be a joke??? French electricity has the same phase/frequency as we do. You would not want to be transporting electricity over long distance on DC. The cables would have to be as big as the Channel Tunnel.

 

I would guess that the 319s may end up in The Cardiff Valleys rather than in the Thames Valley.

I thought that the 319s were supposed to be coming to the North West but we'll probably end up with something older like the 317s

David

Eurolight is being shrunk for DRS and possibly Chiltern. Is it harder to shrink electric locos than diesels?

 

David

Sorry to bump my own post but I wasn't being facetious. I am genuinely interested in whether it would be more difficult to make electric locos fit for our loading gauge than it is for diesels especially as Vossloh seem confident to do it for Eurolight.

A degree of this plan announced today seems to be predicated on more electric haulage of freight and it is unlikely in this case that the USA would be a source for motive power so European sources would seem to be favourite.

David

Agreed, the 444/450 has a dual-voltage traction package and (I think, we've discussed this before somewhere) also a pantograph well. However converting the 455/456 fleet to dual voltage would involve huge amounts of work, but these rarely venture west of Basingstoke so the most cost-effective strategy is to wait until they are life-expired before looking at any conversion in towards Waterloo.

 

What's the betting on 25kV reaching Exeter via Salisbury before it does via Reading?

At last, the Southern's revenge!

David

 

German build, so probably not Mike But major investment like this would also be a good opportunity to bring the small UK loading gauge up to UIC standards, eventually making the costly redesign for that limited loading gauge obsolete. I know it's not gonna happen to all lines, nor at the same time, but the Midlands line, being intended as a freight corridor, would be a prime candidate for UIC conversion, saving trans-loading costs for goods to and from the Continent.

Eurolight is being shrunk for DRS and possibly Chiltern. Is it harder to shrink electric locos than diesels?

David

Cue to sound of promoters of BML2 weeping quietly in a corner . . .

David

Reminds me of the old joke. Bloke walks into a law firm & asks:

 

"Is there a criminal Solicitor here?"

 

Receptionist: "Well, we think there is. We just haven't been able to prove it yet."

Hey, that was more than a one line response

Quote: "BBC Radio Derby political reporter Chris Doidge, meanwhile, said the Varsity line linking Oxford and Cambridge could also be reopened; most of it was closed to passengers following the Beeching Report in the 1960s"

IIRC Oxford to Cambridge wasn't listed for closure in the Beeching Report.

David

I wonder how long it would take from Manchester to Derby if the peak line was reinstated and electrified?

 

I think it takes about an hour and 45min now with a change at Sheffield?

Interesting question, Mike. According to the summer 1960 'The Palatine' (Manchester Central - London St Pancras) took 1hr 35mins in the up direction to reach Derby Midland. The time in the down direction was 1hr 27mins and in both directions included stops at Chinley, Miller's Dale and Matlock. In 1960 I would think that this was still a steam-hauled service using Scots, Jubilees and possibly Britannias. I will leave it to those with more expertise in motive power matters to give an estimate of what could be achieved with modern traction. Class 67 (or Eurolight) + 8 Mk3 + DVT anyone.

As an aside, I made a lot of use of the 'Project Rio' services when they were running a few years ago. These used the Hope Valley (not a high speed main line) and the the Dore south curve and reached St Pancras in, if I recall correctly, a little over three hours but at very reasonable fares. The services, despite being well used, were discontinued when most of the WCML upgrade was complete and any discussion of continuance at least as far as Leicester was dismissed due to capacity limitations on the MML. The fact that this also restored Virgin's monopoly on London services from Manchester on an expensively upgraded WCML was probably a slightly truer reflection of DT's thinking.

David

Edit: Just noticed that the 16.35 to St Pancras ran the 61 miles non-stop Manchester - Derby in 1hr 21mins and a further 2hrs 35mins to reach London. This latter part of the journey now takes one hour less.

I wouldn't argue that Nottingham is a city of sorts.....but my butcher wouldn't argue that Rump steak is better than Spam

 

Fact is that the MML goes to Sheffield and its surrounding Slu towns - all of which ( and this is opinion not fact) would be better served by a decent connection to the ECML

Total population of Nottingham, Derby and Leicester (within city boundaries) is 850k and adding in the other towns on the route would give a population in the region of 1.25m. Adding in Sheffield takes it to almost 2m and then there are those from other locations near the route who will railhead who would add to the total. I understand that the financial case for electrification was way in excess of that for the Great Western and many commentators were baffled as to why the GW route was announced first.

The case for running to Sheffield from Kings Cross is further undermined by the capacity shortage on the ECML. In the past having more than one line to a location was dismissed as a duplication but these days can be seen as adding valuable capacity on an over-stretched network. At one time BR re-routed the 'Master Cutler' from Marylebone to Kings Cross but, if it still ran, they wouldn't do it now.

David

Nonsense. Nottingham and Leicester are both significant cities and Derby is not far behind. Nottingham in particular always appears smaller than it is as much of the contiguous built up area is not included in the population figure for the city. By the time you add in Beeston, West Bridgford, Arnold, Chilwell etc you end up with metropolitan area that rivals Sheffield in size.

 

Rob

Not to mention additional traffic centres such as Market Harborough, Kettering, Wellingborough and Chesterfield.

I also note the promotion of 'simple' extensions to the electrified network in this thread. Preston to Blackpool and Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury have been 'simple' extensions for years but the former is only being done now as part of the NW scheme and the latter isn't even mentioned these days.

When it comes to development of the UK rail network my observation over many years is that patience is indeed a virtue.

David

Just to keep the thread going, I'm building Blodwell Junction on the Tanat Valley and nantmawr branches of the Cambrian in 2mm Finescale. With a smidge of artistic license, any period from the opening of the TVLR to the major track prune of the 50s can be modelled. (The platform changed a little at some point, in the GWR era the TVLR was relaid inchaired rail throughout and the station nameboard was at some point relocated to the signal box - other than that it stayed pretty much unchanged)

 

I plan to use maybe a little more motive power variety than the realthing, using Cambrian0-6-0s, 0-4-0STs and the like as well a the mainstay 2-4-0Ts.I hope to be able to add a collett goods and an autotrain as well for later era running, and if I get real adventurous perhaps even an Ivatt class 2, though the prospect of all that valve gear scares me.

 

Cambrian stuff is all being scratch built, I hope there's going to be some help from proprietary kis for the GWR stuff!

Just caught up with this, Richard, and it looks really interesting. I'm a big fan of the TVR and had often thought that Blodwell Junction would make a good model. Shame it's just a field these days! My favourite section is the area around Porth-y-Waen and I've done a few Templots of potential 2FS layouts of that section. Not expecting that they are likely to be built anytime soon but it's nice to dream.

In the meantime keep us informed of how it's all going, especially if you were to come up with some nice etched kits :-)

David

Dr. Michael Rhodes in 'Diesels in South Wales' has a photo of 03 141 on the MWFO return Llandovery to Llandeilo Junction (30 miles each way on the Central Wales line) trip on 18/6/1982. The return consisted of 2 x 16T + 1 x 21T + 1 x BR Standard Brake Van. The second photo which shows 03 141 shunting 9B96 at Llandovery suggests that it had arrived with a couple of Vanwides and three loaded coal wagons for the coal merchant in Llandovery.

I also seem to recall that 03s worked trains on the Waveney Valley line in the freight only era in the 1960s and I would suggest that after steam had been removed in areas of the country that small shunters, including 03s, were quite regular performers on running lines. Although they only had 204hp available their top speed of 27m.p.h. was considerably in excess of that of 08s which would be some advantage in main line running. Interestingly there are quite a lot of photos of small shunters on the main line in the 1960s but no runners are with them. Does anyone know why it was found necessary to have runners at later periods as track circuits were hardly unknown in the '60s.

David

I don't know what anyone was expecting from Ireland though. You look at that Spanish team and ask the question "who are the stars?" and you come out with, in no particular order...

 

Casillas, Pique, Ramos, Arbeloa, Alba, Silva, Iniesta, Torres, Fabregas (was on the BENCH!), Xavi, Busquets...the list goes on, and on, and on. Then you ask "who are Ireland's stars?" and the answer is...

 

Whelan, Keane, and Damien Duff.

 

Man for man, the Republic of Ireland were never going to win that match, and arguably 4-0 isn't indicative of the sheer class of Spain.

 

Spain should win the whole competition frankly.

All absolutely fair comment, Simon. Spain are a better team than most at present and a far better team than Ireland. It has just been the abject nature of the displays that I have found disappointing. They don't have the sheer ability of other teams but they have made up for it with, to use a favourite phrase of A Hansen, 'grit and determination'. I always feel that a draw or win for Ireland is so much of an achievement compared to that of the sort of performances which England's supposedly more-gifted players turn in. If Ireland could be said to, by-and-large, over-achieve then England do precisely the opposite. Could you believe a team qualifying for a major tournament with Keith Andrews and Glenn Whelan as the central midfield partnership?

By the way, both sets of fans were great. Didn't look like there was much in the way of segregation. Compares rather poorly with reported face-offs between English and Swedish fans. Pathetic.

Also pleased for Nando, great player, hope he's found his touch again. Also happy for Cesc as usual. I knew we couldn't keep him for ever at the Arsenal but he'll always be welcome back.

David

ouch - men against boys, poor old Ireland (

Got home at 11.15 after evening at 2mil finescale group. Watched all 90+ minutes against Spain. How does a team that, up to last Sunday, had gone 14 matches without defeat and conceded only 3 goals along the way become just so abject. Desperately disappointing. I know that the players aren't of the best quality and nowhere near as good as the 2002 squad but hoped that Trapp had them organised enough to keep a bit of dignity.

Oh well, watch the other perennial wasters this evening. Andy Carroll. . . Lord help us

David

It may be my ignorance but surely having fine tuned the quartering you do not want to disturb it so how do you fix the wheels?

Don

I've always found that if the wheels successfully quarter once then they will do it again. I must say that my success rate with etched frames and rods is pretty much 100% which they should be if they have been drawn correctly in the first place. With scratch-built frames and rods it tends to be a more hit and miss process as it all depends on how accurate the marking out, drilling and cutting was in the first place. When I am ready for final assembly superglue is dropped into the holes that have been drilled in the muffs. This is usually sufficient for normal running but even that joint could be broken with a sharp twist if you did need to them apart again.

David